How is God our Father?

[Ankh]

Greetings Dr T,

Just for a different perspective on what the two of you are talking about, I do not believe we are little gods (in embryo) or that we can ever become a God, and personally, I think that believing that is blasphemous! I know I differ from LDS belief because I am a Christian but I needed to put in my two cents on this issues.

Dr T... your rejection is duly noted. I once thought it was "out in left field" but pondering the significance of it, to me, it makes all the sense in the world. If I were to stand beneath the "Space Shuttle" while on its launching pad and look up I would be awe-struck with the techology with what man can devise... to me that is just a foretaste to man's inherited "divinity"... "Let US make..."

Peace to you Dr T :)

Ankh

[Ankh]

Greetings AbuSamuel and welcome,

You wrote the following...

I have been reading your posts and decided to chime in. I concure with the spiritual progression and glorified bodies. Christ gave us a commandment "Follow Me." and if He told us to then it must be possible. The earthly examples are many; Christ in spirit prior to his birth, Christ is born and grows in this mortality and dies, Christ with a resurected and glorified body. If I try to be more "Christ Like" I can have hope and faith that my existance will follow a similar path.

Now here is my dilema: If God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings as taught by Joseph Smith in his vision how do I reconcile scriptures such as Mosiah 15:1-9 "1)...God himself shall come down..." and "2)...because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God..." and so on?

I like to think that I am a pretty smart guy. I have a testimony and firmly believe that I am in the right place, but this makes it somewhat difficult to explain to a non-member about the nature of God and Jesus when the Book of Mormon tells us this. So I will cast this out into the current and see what my net brings in.

AbuSamuel... I'm not sure I'm catching your drift, could you be more specific?

Thanks

Ankh

[AbuSamuel]

Greetings Dr T,

"...If I were to stand beneath the "Space Shuttle" while on its launching pad and look up I would be awe-struck with the techology with what man can devise... "

And then you would get very HOT

[AbuSamuel]

OK, if God and Jesus are two seperate beings as taught in Mormon doctrine then how should I understand Mosiah 15:1-9 ?

[Dr T]

I once thought it was "out in left field" but pondering the significance of it, to me, it makes all the sense in the world.

Thank you Ankh :) "Pondering the significance of it..." That is exactly the reason for my post. It is a very significant departure from Christianity to consider oursleves being equal with God. I fear that it's attempted justification/rationalization will only lead us away from the true God. I know we do not know each other and my posts on this thread may seem like I'm trying to tear down, I'm just letting you know where I stand on this issue. Peace to you as well brother. :)

[Dr T]

Greetings Dr T,

"...If I were to stand beneath the "Space Shuttle" while on its launching pad and look up I would be awe-struck with the techology with what man can devise... "

And then you would get very HOT

HAHAHAHA that was great Abu. Thank you for the chuckle.

[Ankh]

Greetings AbuSamuel

Greetings Dr T,

"...If I were to stand beneath the "Space Shuttle" while on its launching pad and look up I would be awe-struck with the techology with what man can devise... "

And then you would get very HOT :eek

I'm speaking of the shuttle when idle

Ankh

[Tough Grits]

I don't know that we know, as in an official Church teaching, how our spirit bodies came to be.

I can share with you my own speculation, but just realize it is that -- my speculation.

We have been given the model of "creation" of spirit as well as physical bodies down here in mortality. Father and Mother are already teaching us how it will be like in the eternities. They are teaching us this by virtue of how our own families come into existence. By the union of man and woman.

So it is fair to say that all bodies are created by the union of a man and a woman, of sperm and egg (of some sort -- I don't know what a "spirit" sperm or egg would be composed of, exactly - I guess the spirit version of the physical). This would seem to hold true whether the body being created was a spirit or a physical body.

Now, when I say "created" -- in all cases I mean "organized" -- for as you indicated -- nothing gets "created" -- all matter is co-eternal with God, co-existent with God. Was neither created nor made. It has always existed.

Now, once God obtained His Godhood -- which happened SOOO LONG AGO that for all intents and purposes (especially to our puny finite minds) He has ALWAYS been a God -- He and our Heavenly Mother began creating spirit bodies. Again -- by the same processes men and women employ here in mortality. I don't know if the gestation is 9 months or just a few moments, but I believe the beginnings are the same. Children should be conceived in love - and there is no more a loving and intimate act between a man and a woman that I can think of. For that reason, I believe that my spirit body was created in a similar manner to my physical body.

God is our Father. We are co-eternal with Him, that is true. But it was He and Mother that took the necessary steps to move us from "unorganized" intelligences into a new phase of existence as "organized intelligences." It was then that He became our Father.

So I guess the answer to your question is "yes." That is why we call Him Father.

He is the perfect Father. He not only gave us "life" - as organized intelligences - but continues to walk beside us, from moment to moment, unseen, but no less present and no less real.

Tom

I have always wondered...

Is this not the same as human procreation...in the sense that my husband and I did not create the spirits that came with the bodies of our daughter and son into the world. Their spirits had already been living in the pre-mortal world and had been merely made to "quicken" within the embryo within the womb.

That part I get. That is how Heavenly Father is the father of all our Spirits, because He allowed the embryos within a mother's womb to quicken with a spirit from the pre-mortal world.

What about the flesh itself? If nothing is created, and everything is organized...then what about the flesh of the embryo itself? Where does that flesh come from? Just wondering. This has nothing to do with my faith or testimony...I am just curious to see what others have to offer up on the matter.

I read a little trivia thing once, that said that the earth weighs "such and such" more now than it ever has.

How is that possible?

Man cannot create anything. Everything we "create" is merely formed from another substance that already existed...right? So, why would the world weigh more now than it ever has? Isn't that weird?

My husband explained it to me...but I still thought it was weird.

[Dr T]

Ankh,

I understood what you were saying but thought Abu's post was funny. I hope it caused no offense to you sir. :)

[Dr T]

That is a good question Tough One :) The concept of the soul is interesting to me. I've never really thought about it. My wife is pregnant right now. When does the soul enter? Where is it stored? What is it? hmmm... I have a lot of thinking to do. I do not believe God merely organized but "created" all things.

[Tough Grits]

Personally, I think that from the moment the sperm successfully penetrates the egg...life is created (formed, jump-started, etc.). IMHO, the spirit is quickened at that very moment, because there are spirits already lined up and waiting for a body and a chance to come to earth and prove themselves herewith.

Some within our Church have even expressed that they believe that spirits choose whom they wish to be their parents.

I am not sure about that, myself. It is a nice thought. It is humbling to me to think that RyRy and Bubba actually chose me to be their mom and wanted to be in our little family.

It is a cool thought...one day all will be made manifest unto us. Until then, we can only enjoy idle speculation.

Okay, what about the flesh question, and the weight of the earth question??????

[AbuSamuel]

I have always wondered...

Is this not the same as human procreation...in the sense that my husband and I did not create the spirits that came with the bodies of our daughter and son into the world. Their spirits had already been living in the pre-mortal world and had been merely made to "quicken" within the embryo within the womb.

That part I get. That is how Heavenly Father is the father of all our Spirits, because He allowed the embryos within a mother's womb to quicken with a spirit from the pre-mortal world.

What about the flesh itself? If nothing is created, and everything is organized...then what about the flesh of the embryo itself? Where does that flesh come from? Just wondering. This has nothing to do with my faith or testimony...I am just curious to see what others have to offer up on the matter.

I read a little trivia thing once, that said that the earth weighs "such and such" more now than it ever has.

How is that possible?

Man cannot create anything. Everything we "create" is merely formed from another substance that already existed...right? So, why would the world weigh more now than it ever has? Isn't that weird?

My husband explained it to me...but I still thought it was weird.

Just as two cells are joined (organized) to create a baby, a seed sprouts to grow a tree, elements bond to form compounds. The earth weighs more now than it ever has, well so do I, much to the chagrin of my wife.

[Dr T]

The earth weighs more now than it ever has, well so do I, much to the chagrin of my wife.

Hahahah, AbuS, you're great! I really enjoy your humor sir :) Nice to have you around.

[AbuSamuel]

I was prompted to seek other opinions on the subject of God our Father by my wife. She is taking a world religion class and is having a hard time with some of these questions. This is leading her to question her own beliefs. I didn't have a good explination for her about the Trinity in light of the Mosiah quote. I know how I believe, but I need something with substance to figure this out.

I am here in Iraq right now and she is back in Kansas with the kids. One of her girlfriends is a pretty enthusiastic fundamentalist (albeit Non-Denominational) Christian that enjoys asking her tough questions. It is hard for me to help her what with the time difference and the delays in communication.

[Ankh]

Greetings again Dr T,

Thank you Ankh :) "Pondering the significance of it..." That is exactly the reason for my post. It is a very significant departure from Christianity to consider oursleves being equal with God. I fear that it's attempted justification/rationalization will only lead us away from the true God.

Dr T, God and all gods are infinite and eternal beings and have no beginning or ending because as "intelligence"we were neither created or made. LDS do not believe that man came to earth to be created gods for we are "gods" in embryo. Gods is our species. The "spirits" of men have always existed and were not created from nothing because gods are infinite and have been co-existent with God. Understand that men were created "sons" of God and have come to earth to be made fathers like our Eternal Father. God does not differentiate Himself from man based on His Godhood but rather His Eternal Fatherhood. Christ thought it not robbery to be equal to God, neither should we. I understand that in our current state man is so unlike God in many ways, and that there is alot of "becoming" between God and man, but the underlining potential is is that man can become as God is, which is closer to saying that man can become like our Heavenly Father than saying man can become gods (for we already are) ~ Psalms 82:6.

I know we do not know each other and my posts on this thread may seem like I'm trying to tear down, I'm just letting you know where I stand on this issue. Peace to you as well brother. :)

Dr T, I do understand where you are coming from, like I said earlier I once thought this teaching was "out in left field"... but not no more, it makes more sense to me now, now that I've not allowed man's preconceived ideas/bias to make me throw out the baby with the bath water if you know what I mean. But again Dr T I respect you're belief and thank you for sharing with me on this thread

Peace to you always

Ankh

[Adeipho]

Just for a different perspective on what the two of you are talking about, I do not believe we are little gods (in embryo) or that we can ever become a God, and personally, I think that believing that is blasphemous! I know I differ from LDS belief because I am a Christian but I needed to put in my two cents on this issues.

Perhaps you would be intrested to be reminded what the Lord has said concerning this.

John Ch. 10

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In other words, we are gods. Jesus said it was so and also pointed out that it was a known idea from the beginning of the law. The offspring of a being is the same as its parent. The children of a god are gods. We know from Christ's own words that we are the sons and daughters of God.

John chapter 20

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

We are the only creatures under heaven that are refered to as children of God because no other creatures are as we are. None so like Him, as ourselves.

[Guest tomk]

Just for a different perspective on what the two of you are talking about, I do not believe we are little gods (in embryo) or that we can ever become a God, and personally, I think that believing that is blasphemous! I know I differ from LDS belief because I am a Christian but I needed to put in my two cents on this issues.

Dr. T:

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

You already know we differ on this discussion point...so I won't go into it.

Tom

[Guest tomk]

Resurrection isn't a gift....it's a requirement. There are two deaths...The physical death that almost all must go through...then the Spiritual Death...that which will occur after the "Day of Judgement"

We know, through the Bible and the Book of Mormon that there has from time to time existed persons who's lifes have been so exemplary, that they were "Translated". While Translation exempts these people from physical death...I seem to recall a Professor at the Y saying all translated will one day experience some form of physical death...Can't recall the 5 W's of that statement, but will look for it.

Resurrection isn't a gift?

I know you don't particularly like me -- but I fail to understand why you would feel the need to correct me on this.

May I clarify?

IT IS ALL A GIFT. ALL OF IT.

I am so grateful to my Father in Heaven for giving me the gift of life. Everything after that is a GIFT.

Thank you,

Tom

[Ankh]

Greetings Sister Tough Grits,

You wrote...

I have always wondered...

Is this not the same as human procreation...in the sense that my husband and I did not create the spirits that came with the bodies of our daughter and son into the world. Their spirits had already been living in the pre-mortal world and had been merely made to "quicken" within the embryo within the womb.

That part I get. That is how Heavenly Father is the father of all our Spirits, because He allowed the embryos within a mother's womb to quicken with a spirit from the pre-mortal world.

What about the flesh itself? If nothing is created, and everything is organized...then what about the flesh of the embryo itself? Where does that flesh come from? Just wondering. This has nothing to do with my faith or testimony...I am just curious to see what others have to offer up on the matter.

I read a little trivia thing once, that said that the earth weighs "such and such" more now than it ever has.

How is that possible?

Man cannot create anything. Everything we "create" is merely formed from another substance that already existed...right? So, why would the world weigh more now than it ever has? Isn't that weird?

My husband explained it to me...but I still thought it was weird.

Sister, Great post. To possibly answer your question, did you happen to read Brother Finrock's post #7 Purpose of a body

It might be helpful to your inquiry.

Ankh

[Justice]

Now here is my dilema: If God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings as taught by Joseph Smith in his vision how do I reconcile scriptures such as Mosiah 15:1-9 "1)...God himself shall come down..." and "2)...because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God..." and so on?

I like to think that I am a pretty smart guy. I have a testimony and firmly believe that I am in the right place, but this makes it somewhat difficult to explain to a non-member about the nature of God and Jesus when the Book of Mormon tells us this. So I will cast this out into the current and see what my net brings in.

It is important for you and more important for your wife, even all of us, to not doubt our testimonies because we don't understand all things (or even this thing). Regardless of receiving an answer of how or why, we can still independantly know something is true.

Mosiah 15: 1-9 can be explained this way: Jesus Christ is the Creator of this world. He is the Being that spoke with Adam, Enoch, Abraham, and Moses. For all practical purposes, He is God. The Father has only spoken to or appeared to man in very few select instances, and only when it was needful.

Heavenly Father is God, but not the God that appeared to Moses. Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehova, the one that appeared to Moses. God is not a name, but a rank title of deity. So, don't be confused when someone says "God," they don't always mean the Father.

As far as God (The Son) being named The Son because of His flesh, well I feel it's simply because God the Father was the parent of His physical body. So, because of the flesh HE is the Son.

I have only attempted to specifically answer your questions. There may be other truths one needs to understand in order to comprehend them. If these answers don't make sense then possibly there are truths missing. I find that understanding many of these truths comes by understanding the nature of the resurrection. So, you might study the resurrection and see what you can find about the joining of flesh and spirit, or about souls.

[Guest tomk]

I have been reading your posts and decided to chime in. I concure with the spiritual progression and glorified bodies. Christ gave us a commandment "Follow Me." and if He told us to then it must be possible. The earthly examples are many; Christ in spirit prior to his birth, Christ is born and grows in this mortality and dies, Christ with a resurected and glorified body. If I try to be more "Christ Like" I can have hope and faith that my existance will follow a similar path.

Now here is my dilema: If God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings as taught by Joseph Smith in his vision how do I reconcile scriptures such as Mosiah 15:1-9 "1)...God himself shall come down..." and "2)...because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God..." and so on?

I like to think that I am a pretty smart guy. I have a testimony and firmly believe that I am in the right place, but this makes it somewhat difficult to explain to a non-member about the nature of God and Jesus when the Book of Mormon tells us this. So I will cast this out into the current and see what my net brings in.

"God Himself shall come down..."

There is an answer. You need to read this book (link given below), particularly the last 3 chapters, where it goes into how Jesus is the Father and the Son.

Amazon.com: A Scriptural Discussion of Light: Allen J. Fletcher: Books

Until you have a chance to read the book, you can think about the following statements made by the Savior during His mortal ministry:

• <LI class=searchitem>John 8: 18, 28, 42, 54

  18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

  • • •

  28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

  • • •

  42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

  • • •

  54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

• John 14: 10, 21

  10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

  • • •

  21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

We do not comprehend how TOTAL and ABSOLUTE the submission of the Son (Jesus Christ) was to the Father (Elohim). Jesus is just not being humble. He is literally saying that the Father is powering it all.

The Atonement was wrought by God the Father, with His Beloved Son acting as proxy. Christ submitted His will to the Father completely.

Tom

[Dr T]

Thanks Pho,

I'm not sure you'll agree with what I know of the subject but I'll lay it out again. All god referenced are not God. They are all used for false gods or something else. I'll give you an example. The Jn. 10 verse that you reference is talking about the judges of Psalm 82 where "gods" is used. It is used because in their office, they determined the fate of other men. See also Ex. 21:16 and 22:8-9, God calls earthly jedges "gods." Jesus is not talking the statement "you are gods" and applying it to all humanity, or to all believers. It's more properly understood as a metaphor and it was used to point out the inconsistency of Jesus' accusers here. Context is how I interpret scripture sir. Text and context are vital to understanding.

[Guest User-Removed]

Thank you Ankh :) "Pondering the significance of it..." That is exactly the reason for my post. It is a very significant departure from Christianity to consider oursleves being equal with God. I fear that it's attempted justification/rationalization will only lead us away from the true God. I know we do not know each other and my posts on this thread may seem like I'm trying to tear down, I'm just letting you know where I stand on this issue. Peace to you as well brother. :)

T...I know of no Church Doctrine that states that we're "equal" to God...only that we strive to be as God...

[AbuSamuel]

That is pretty close to what I told my wife. In the context of the quote from Mosiah, he was instructing them (the Priests) in a way that they would understand and in accordance with the light and knowledge which they had at the time. The God of the Old Testiment was Jesus himself. New Testiment writtings reveal that the Father and the Son are two distinct beings. Modern revelation confirms this. It is just a bit confusing when it is clearly written that way (Mosiah) to try to expound on the nature of God and Jesus.

[Guest User-Removed]

Resurrection isn't a gift?

I know you don't particularly like me -- but I fail to understand why you would feel the need to correct me on this.

May I clarify?

IT IS ALL A GIFT. ALL OF IT.

I am so grateful to my Father in Heaven for giving me the gift of life. Everything after that is a GIFT.

Thank you,

Tom

Tom...your "Straw Man" argument on my view of you is simply incorrect, and designed to draw attention away from your lack of understanding of, what in this place is pretty basic Doctrine.

The Gift is the Atonement, the Gift is Grace, after all we can do.

The Resurrection is the vehicle by which we enjoy that Gift. The resurrection isn't the gift...it is a requirement. There is a difference.