How is God our Father?

[AbuSamuel]

"God Himself shall come down..."

There is an answer. You need to read this book (link given below), particularly the last 3 chapters, where it goes into how Jesus is the Father and the Son.

Amazon.com: A Scriptural Discussion of Light: Allen J. Fletcher: Books

Until you have a chance to read the book, you can think about the following statements made by the Savior during His mortal ministry:

• <LI class=searchitem>John 8: 18, 28, 42, 54

  18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

  • • •

  28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

  • • •

  42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

  • • •

  54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

• John 14: 10, 21

  10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

  • • •

  21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

We do not comprehend how TOTAL and ABSOLUTE the submission of the Son (Jesus Christ) was to the Father (Elohim). Jesus is just not being humble. He is literally saying that the Father is powering it all.

The Atonement was wrought by God the Father, with His Beloved Son acting as proxy. Christ submitted His will to the Father completely.

Tom

Thanks Tom,

I know that there are many scriptures that show Christ and God as seperate. My concerne is those that show them as one and the same being, entity, person, etc., such as the ones in Mosiah. Is it apples or oranges? Maybe both?

[Adeipho]

Thanks Pho,

I'm not sure you'll agree with what I know of the subject but I'll lay it out again. All god referenced are not God. They are all used for false gods or something else. I'll give you an example. The Jn. 10 verse that you reference is talking about the judges of Psalm 82 where "gods" is used. It is used because in their office, they determined the fate of other men. See also Ex. 21:16 and 22:8-9, God calls earthly jedges "gods." Jesus is not talking the statement "you are gods" and applying it to all humanity, or to all believers. It's more properly understood as a metaphor and it was used to point out the inconsistency of Jesus' accusers here. Context is how I interpret scripture sir. Text and context are vital to understanding.

Actually the scripture I gave you, Christ was trying to point out that we are gods and yet we accused Christ of a sin for saying he was the "son" of god. The way I read it is that he was trying to figure out why being the son of god was under attack when in all reality we are all children of god and thus by that very vertue, gods ourselves. Like Irish people attacking a man for saying he is the son of an Irish man.

The difference is Christ is the only begotten son of our Father in Heaven. He is set apart and above the rest of us.

Just a couple of things that might make a god a god....Knowledge of good and evil, agency, ability to procreate, above all others in their sphere.

Do we not know good from evil? Do we not have agency? Can we not have children? Are we not the dominate and most intellegent life on our world?

I can not think of any other creatures in this world that share all of these few required traits.

[Guest tomk]

I have always wondered...

Is this not the same as human procreation...in the sense that my husband and I did not create the spirits that came with the bodies of our daughter and son into the world. Their spirits had already been living in the pre-mortal world and had been merely made to "quicken" within the embryo within the womb.

Correct.

That part I get. That is how Heavenly Father is the father of all our Spirits, because He allowed the embryos within a mother's womb to quicken with a spirit from the pre-mortal world.

What about the flesh itself? If nothing is created, and everything is organized...then what about the flesh of the embryo itself? Where does that flesh come from? Just wondering. This has nothing to do with my faith or testimony...I am just curious to see what others have to offer up on the matter.

From the nutrients supplied by the mother. Maybe I do no understand your question.

I read a little trivia thing once, that said that the earth weighs "such and such" more now than it ever has.

How is that possible?

Man cannot create anything. Everything we "create" is merely formed from another substance that already existed...right? So, why would the world weigh more now than it ever has? Isn't that weird?

My husband explained it to me...but I still thought it was weird.

Why would the world weigh more? Conservation of mass would seem to indicate the weight of the world should not change.

One thing that seems be increasing is the world's population.

Conservation of mass would seem to indicate that this alone would not make the world weigh more ... because the bodies are coming from the nutrients the mother takes in, which have "always been on the earth" since the time of Adam.

So more bodies would not seem to account for the change in mass.

However, if bodies have spirits, and those spirits are coming from someplace other than the earth - those spirit bodies DO have some mass - and thus would seem to be making the earth heavier.

Tom

[Guest User-Removed]

"God Himself shall come down..."

There is an answer. You need to read this book (link given below), particularly the last 3 chapters, where it goes into how Jesus is the Father and the Son.

Amazon.com: A Scriptural Discussion of Light: Allen J. Fletcher: Books

Until you have a chance to read the book, you can think about the following statements made by the Savior during His mortal ministry:

• <LI class=searchitem>John 8: 18, 28, 42, 54

  18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

  • • •

  28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

  • • •

  42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

  • • •

  54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

• John 14: 10, 21

  10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

  • • •

  21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

We do not comprehend how TOTAL and ABSOLUTE the submission of the Son (Jesus Christ) was to the Father (Elohim). Jesus is just not being humble. He is literally saying that the Father is powering it all.

The Atonement was wrought by God the Father, with His Beloved Son acting as proxy. Christ submitted His will to the Father completely.

Tom

If anyone hasn't read "The Infinite Atonement"...many ...many of your questions concerning this subject are answered within...

[Dr T]

OK Skip, I understand the LDS concept of being subordinate to the god you worship and that it my not be specifically outlines like the way I wrote it but it does not take a genius to put together the teaching of your church that says, "As man is, God once was...etc." means that the LDS teach that man can become a God, I know of the eternal progression concept, etc. and I'm guessing you know exactly what I mean and what my objections about this thread are talking about. Do you disagree with the underlying concepts that I'm referring to as something the LDS church teaches? (without tying to use semantics/diction to changes meaning of the concepts). I'm just asking for clarification from you to make sure I really understand if you are trying to side step the issues presented above or if you really don't think the church teaches that you can become a God.

[Guest tomk]

Tom...your "Straw Man" argument on my view of you is simply incorrect, and designed to draw attention away from your lack of understanding of, what in this place is pretty basic Doctrine.

The Gift is the Atonement, the Gift is Grace, after all we can do.

The Resurrection is the vehicle by which we enjoy that Gift. The resurrection isn't the gift...it is a requirement. There is a difference.

"Uh, okay." -- you are splitting hairs.

[AbuSamuel]

Why would the world weigh more? Conservation of mass would seem to indicate the weight of the world should not change.

One thing that seems be increasing is the world's population.

Conservation of mass would seem to indicate that this alone would not make the world weigh more ... because the bodies are coming from the nutrients the mother takes in, which have "always been on the earth" since the time of Adam.

So more bodies would not seem to account for the change in mass.

However, if bodies have spirits, and those spirits are coming from someplace other than the earth - those spirit bodies DO have some mass - and thus would seem to be making the earth heavier.

Tom

The story of the mustard seed would seem sufficient to explain this. Just as the tiniest seed becomes a large plant with weight and mass so too do we come from the smallest of cells and grow to full size adults. The mass and weight of the plant does not reduce the mass of the earths nutrients available to it proportionaly. Simply put, we grow. All things grow. The earth gets heavier.

[Guest tomk]

Thanks Tom,

I know that there are many scriptures that show Christ and God as seperate. My concerne is those that show them as one and the same being, entity, person, etc., such as the ones in Mosiah. Is it apples or oranges? Maybe both?

I have answered you.

There is no contradiction in the scriptures. Only a lack of understanding on our part.

I would encourage you to read the following:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

Tom

[Guest tomk]

The story of the mustard seed would seem sufficient to explain this. Just as the tiniest seed becomes a large plant with weight and mass so too do we come from the smallest of cells and grow to full size adults. The mass and weight of the plant does not reduce the mass of the earths nutrients available to it proportionaly. Simply put, we grow. All things grow. The earth gets heavier.

Sure, but it is not just "us growing" --- we grow by consuming nutrients from that which is around us.

Thus...the mass of the earth does not change just because we get bigger.

Do you actually understand what "conservation of mass" is?

I mean no offense. It's just that your comments about a mustard seed growing into a large tree do not explain why the earth is heavier.

[Justice]

Tom...your "Straw Man" argument on my view of you is simply incorrect, and designed to draw attention away from your lack of understanding of, what in this place is pretty basic Doctrine.

The Gift is the Atonement, the Gift is Grace, after all we can do.

The Resurrection is the vehicle by which we enjoy that Gift. The resurrection isn't the gift...it is a requirement. There is a difference.

If you list all the things brought about by the Atonement, would those things not be considered gifts too? If Christ did not Atone, then we would be forever resurrection-less, in a state of physical death. We would not enjoy our bodies, but be spirits forever more.

So, yes, the gift was the Atonement, but in my opinion, so were all the things that came from it, including immortality and eternal life. Immortality comes by the Atonement, and eternal life comes by obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For, without the atonement, none of these things would be possible. You or I did nothing to earn our resurrection in this life, it comes soley from the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is His gift to all who are born into mortality so that we can progress beyond Satan and his followers.

The resurrection most certainly is a gift from Jesus Christ, and a prerequisite to eternal life. I thank Him frequently for the gift of immortality (or the resurrection) because I did nothing to earn it myself, and it is, as you say, a requirement for eternal life.

[AbuSamuel]

OK Skip, I understand the LDS concept of being subordinate to the god you worship and that it my not be specifically outlines like the way I wrote it but it does not take a genius to put together the teaching of your church that says, "As man is, God once was...etc." means that the LDS teach that man can become a God, I know of the eternal progression concept, etc. and I'm guessing you know exactly what I mean and what my objections about this thread are talking about. Do you disagree with the underlying concepts that I'm referring to as something the LDS church teaches? (without tying to use semantics/diction to changes meaning of the concepts). I'm just asking for clarification from you to make sure I really understand if you are trying to side step the issues presented above or if you really don't think the church teaches that you can become a God.

T-Bone, I for one absolutly believe that the potential for us to become like our Father in Heaven is a doctrinal truth. I really believe that Christ is the Son of God, begotten of God the Father and Mary. In this way Jesus is different than us. But we have every ability and potential to humble ourselves, cast off sin and be like Jesus. We will die one day. We will be resurected one day. We will be judged one day. When that time comes some will recieve a little glory, some will recieve more, and still some will be found to be like Jesus and will stand by Him that stands on the right hand of God.

Its like we teach our children, there is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it and work hard. Really very simple.

[Guest User-Removed]

OK Skip, I understand the LDS concept of being subordinate to the god you worship and that it my not be specifically outlines like the way I wrote it but it does not take a genius to put together the teaching of your church that says, "As man is, God once was...etc." means that the LDS teach that man can become a God, I know of the eternal progression concept, etc. and I'm guessing you know exactly what I mean and what my objections about this thread are talking about. Do you disagree with the underlying concepts that I'm referring to as something the LDS church teaches? (without tying to use semantics/diction to changes meaning of the concepts). I'm just asking for clarification from you to make sure I really understand if you are trying to side step the issues presented above or if you really don't think the church teaches that you can become a God.

Well..."As man is God once was...As God is man may become" isn't Church Doctrine per se. This quote was originally coined by Lorenzo Snow in 1840.

There is nowhere other than what Joseph taught during King Follett's funeral, in our standard works, that we will become equal to or as God. But, not withstanding, we do believe through exaultation will can become like God.

Now...and this is under the purest form of "Gospel Hobbying"...I once asked in an Institute class..."If President Snow was correct that as we are God once was...and as God is we may become...that would lead me to question...if God is our God...in the condition we're now in...WHO...was God's God when he too was in our condition"?????

[Guest tomk]

If you list all the things brought about by the Atonement, would those things not be considered gifts too? If Christ did not Atone, then we would be forever resurrection-less, in a state of physical death. We would not enjoy our bodies, but be spirits forever more.

So, yes, the gift was the Atonement, but in my opinion, so were all the things that came from it, including immortality and eternal life. Immortality comes by the Atonement, and eternal life comes by obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For, without the atonement, none of these things would be possible. You or I did nothing to earn our resurrection in this life, it comes soley from the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is His gift to all who are born into mortality so that we can progress beyond Satan and his followers.

The resurrection most certainly is a gift from Jesus Christ, and a prerequisite to eternal life. I thank Him frequently for the gift of immortality (or the resurrection) because I did nothing to earn it myself, and it is, as you say, a requirement for eternal life.

Justice,

The problem is not MDS's lack of understanding about the Atonement.

His problem is with ME.

He is constantly seeking opportunities to publicly embarrass me or cross me in my words.

Why this is, I don't know. I guess he thinks I am some sort of idiot who has no business posting here. Now...ha ha....such may be the case....but I don't need to be called-out on it.

Tom

[Guest User-Removed]

If you list all the things brought about by the Atonement, would those things not be considered gifts too? If Christ did not Atone, then we would be forever resurrection-less, in a state of physical death. We would not enjoy our bodies, but be spirits forever more.

So, yes, the gift was the Atonement, but in my opinion, so were all the things that came from it, including immortality and eternal life. Immortality comes by the Atonement, and eternal life comes by obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For, without the atonement, none of these things would be possible. You or I did nothing to earn our resurrection in this life, it comes soley from the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is His gift to all who are born into mortality so that we can progress beyond Satan and his followers.

The resurrection most certainly is a gift from Jesus Christ, and a prerequisite to eternal life. I thank Him frequently for the gift of immortality (or the resurrection) because I did nothing to earn it myself, and it is, as you say, a requirement for eternal life.

I deleted my last post on the suject and am perusing the pages of Tad Callister's book...you might be onto something there tomk.

[Guest User-Removed]

"Uh, okay." -- you are splitting hairs.

tomk...I've deleted my previous post...and went to my library and grabbed my copy of Tad Callister's book...I'm perusing it now...you might just be almost correct.

Although, I suspect you and I are too "combing impaired" to have too many hairs we can spare to split...bwahahahahahahahaha

[Guest User-Removed]

Justice,

The problem is not MDS's lack of understanding about the Atonement.

His problem is with ME.

He is constantly seeking opportunities to publicly embarrass me or cross me in my words.

Why this is, I don't know. I guess he thinks I am some sort of idiot who has no business posting here. Now...ha ha....such may be the case....but I don't need to be called-out on it.

Tom

tomk...Put your wounded ego in check...My "problem is rarely with the debator...it's always with the debate"

There are plenty of folks on these thread to whom I can't say I'm particularily impressed with...they're usually anti's and apostates and the odd lot athiests...none of these terms describe you.

[Guest tomk]

tomk...I've deleted my previous post...and went to my library and grabbed my copy of Tad Callister's book...I'm perusing it now...you might just be almost correct.

Although, I suspect you and I are too "combing impaired" to have too many hairs we can spare to split...bwahahahahahahahaha

:)

I am not asking you or anyone to AGREE with me.

By all means .... PLEASE DISAGREE. :)

What I don't like is when people disagree with me AND try to give hints about my level of gospel understanding (presumably to bolster their own standing in the eyes of others).

If in your heart of hearts ... you are not guilty of this ... then it is I who needs to apologize to you, MDS.

I have no beef with you MDS.

Can we be friends from now on?

Friends don't have to agree. Some of my best friends in the world are the ones who challenge my statements.

To a fresh start!

Tom

[Guest tomk]

tomk...Put your wounded ego in check...My "problem is rarely with the debator...it's always with the debate"

There are plenty of folks on these thread to whom I can't say I'm particularily impressed with...they're usually anti's and apostates and the odd lot athiests...none of these terms describe you.

See my post just now....and you are correct.

[Justice]

OK. I was just wanting to make a point, and re-reading my post, I see I did not make it. LOL

What I was trying to say, is that many people think eternal life is the gift we get from the Atonement. But, the Atonement is said to be complete and eternal. The only thing complete and eternal that came from the Atonement was the gift of the resurrection, or immortality. We know this because it will be given to all who take a mortal body in this life. The point was made that this is required for eternal life, but to me it seemed the point wasn't understood. Eternal life is not granted to all because of the Atonement. Christ said we had to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel in order to receive eternal life. Yet, many people don't make the correlation. They still think eternal life is a gift of the Atonement.

I might be splitting hairs, but if we are truly to understand the nature of the Atonement, it is important to watch for the smallest of details. The basis of the Atonement is that Christ literally shed His blood and became immortal. He was not resurrected while on the cross, because He endured the transformation from mortal to immortal while yet alive. This meant the blood had to go, or be shed. So, if you think about how it directly applies to man, does it not pertain more to being immortal that to eternal life? He wasn't resurrected until after He died, but He did not have to die, He was immortal because He shed His blood.

Eternal life is conditional upon whether or not we can live the laws of that kingdom, and requires us to be immortal, or resurrected, first. So, the Atonement is responsible for making eternal life possible, but only as far as it brings about immortality. Whether or not we obey the laws of the Kingdom is conditional upon to how well be become converted to Jesus Christ, and thus it can not be a gift to all, only to those that "believe."

[Justice]

Now...and this is under the purest form of "Gospel Hobbying"...I once asked in an Institute class..."If President Snow was correct that as we are God once was...and as God is we may become...that would lead me to question...if God is our God...in the condition we're now in...WHO...was God's God when he too was in our condition"?????

And, that answer is, His Heavenly Father. :)

[Guest User-Removed]

If you list all the things brought about by the Atonement, would those things not be considered gifts too? If Christ did not Atone, then we would be forever resurrection-less, in a state of physical death. We would not enjoy our bodies, but be spirits forever more.

So, yes, the gift was the Atonement, but in my opinion, so were all the things that came from it, including immortality and eternal life. Immortality comes by the Atonement, and eternal life comes by obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For, without the atonement, none of these things would be possible. You or I did nothing to earn our resurrection in this life, it comes soley from the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is His gift to all who are born into mortality so that we can progress beyond Satan and his followers.

The resurrection most certainly is a gift from Jesus Christ, and a prerequisite to eternal life. I thank Him frequently for the gift of immortality (or the resurrection) because I did nothing to earn it myself, and it is, as you say, a requirement for eternal life.

I think I'm going to spend the weekend in Study Hall for speaking before I read up on the subject...Here is what Tad Callister writes in his book..."The Infinite Atonement"

OVERCOMING PHYSICAL DEATH AND THE FIRST SPIRITUAL DEATH FOR ALL

If asked, "What are the consequences of the Atonement?" many people respond, "It overcame physical death for all men and spiritual death for those who respent." While the answer is correct as far as it goes, it is incomplete. The Fall brought about physical death and, in addition, one type of spiritual death to all men. This was caused by our first parents' transgression in the Garden, known by the world as "original sin." All men physically die because of Adam's transgression. There is no escape from this consequence. Likewise, all men will be resurrected because of Christ. There is no exception to this remedy. Physical death, however, is not the only universal consequence of the Fall. As another consequence of Adam's transgression, all men are born in a setting outside God's physical presence. This separation is known in the scriptures as the first spiritual death (see Helama 14:16-18;D&C 29:41). It is an estrangement from God caused by Adam.

There is also a second spiritual death. It is a separation from God caused by our individual sins.

Each form of spiritual death has itscure. The Atonement corrects the first spiritual death for all men without any effort on their own, and understandably so, for they in no way were its cause. The Atonement corrects the second spiritual death on an individual basis for those who repent, since each of us who has sinned must individually contribute to our own redemption, "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"

(2 Nephi 25:23)

The universal effects of the first spiritual death were externally imposed by Adam and externally corrected by Christ for all mankind.

The Infinite Atonement

Tad Callister

Deseret Books

Pages 46-46

Based on my reading of President Callister, and the applicable sections of the Standard Works....tomk was closer to corect than I gave him credit for. Please accept my apologies tomk for professing to knowledge at the time I didn't possess....

[Guest User-Removed]

:)

I am not asking you or anyone to AGREE with me.

By all means .... PLEASE DISAGREE. :)

What I don't like is when people disagree with me AND try to give hints about my level of gospel understanding (presumably to bolster their own standing in the eyes of others).

If in your heart of hearts ... you are not guilty of this ... then it is I who needs to apologize to you, MDS.

I have no beef with you MDS.

Can we be friends from now on?

Friends don't have to agree. Some of my best friends in the world are the ones who challenge my statements.

To a fresh start!

Tom

tomk...There is nothing wrong with any of these threads, that can't be cured by a great big Bear Lake Raspberry Shake......

[lostnfound]

Dr. T somewhere on this thread you mentioned the body and soul. I had a thought that I wanted to share with you.

I too believe we are made up of body, soul and spirit. The soul being our emotions, our personality, our will. It is there upon conception. The spirit however which controls our body and soul is ethier of God (born again or believe)or of satan. This concept is also taught in genesis. hmmm..that would make for an interesting book study.

Skip, you said something that I have often wondered about as well. Who was God's God??? That has always confused me since God said he knows of no other God..you would think he would have known his God right?

[Justice]

I think I'm going to spend the weekend in Study Hall for speaking before I read up on the subject...Here is what Tad Callister writes in his book..."The Infinite Atonement"

OVERCOMING PHYSICAL DEATH AND THE FIRST SPIRITUAL DEATH FOR ALL

If asked, "What are the consequences of the Atonement?" ... As another consequence of Adam's transgression, all men are born in a setting outside God's physical presence. This separation is known in the scriptures as the first spiritual death (see Helama 14:16-18;D&C 29:41). It is an estrangement from God caused by Adam.

There is also a second spiritual death. It is a separation from God caused by our individual sins.

Each form of spiritual death has itscure. The Atonement corrects the first spiritual death for all men without any effort on their own, and understandably so, for they in no way were its cause. The Atonement corrects the second spiritual death on an individual basis for those who repent, since each of us who has sinned must individually contribute to our own redemption, "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"

(2 Nephi 25:23)

I think many people believe the same things, they just explain it to themselves and others differently, because we understand things differently.

Helaman 14:

15 For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

This is something that a lot of people miss. If you ask members of the Church, "What are the effects of the Atonement?" they will say something like: "all mankind will be resurrected and eternal life will be given to those who live the gospel."

Well, let's define a simple term so we're all on the same page:

resurrection = immortality

Now, the statement you quoted says that because of the Atonement we will be brought back into God's presence to be judged. I used to think this also. But, The Father has committed all judgement to the Son.

John 5:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto elife.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Besides, that scripture answers this question for itself:

Helaman 14:

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

The Lord is Jesus Christ, not God the Father. The scripture does not say the Atonement brings us back into the presence of the Father, but to the presence of the Son.

We do not "need" to be brought back into the Father's presence in order to be judged. So, I don't think dividing spiritual death into 2 things is necessary for understanding the blessings we receive from the Atonement... namely 2:

1. All who ever live will be resurrected. (I think many people really don't understand what the resurrection is. We read and understand the words "our body and spirit are joined eternally, never to be separated," but we don't give thought to exactly what and how this will be accomplished. I can tell you it's impossible for the current understanding of "resurrection" to follow God's natural law. There's more to it, and we just aren't asking the right questions.)

2. Our personal sin separates us from God, not Adam's transgression, and can be overcome by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

"We believe man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

Because of Adam and Eve we are born mortal.

Because of Christ we will become immortal.

Whether or not we are reborn spiritually depends entirely upon how converted we become to Jesus Christ.

Overcoming spiritual death is something we accomplish only through the grace of Christ.

BD Grace

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

This enabling power is not needed for immortality, or the resurrection. It is a gift, period. I don't think we really understand what "in a condition of everlasting life." means. It's worth the study.

It says His grace allows us, or enables us, to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation.

Notice that immortality is made possible BY His atoning sacrifice, but eternal life is made possible "through faith in the Atonement... and repentance..." Again, it may seem I am splitting hairs, but I promise you it is significant. Read this definition over and over until it sinks in.

[Tough Grits]

Please forgive me if somebody has already quoted or referenced this article...I apologize that that the words are in bold, but I could not get the text to be un-bold. Sorry!

Robert J. Woodford, “‘In the Beginning’: A Latter-day Perspective,” Ensign, Jan 1998, 12"]

Pre-earth Existence

The story of creation did not begin with the formation of this earth. It extends back into what we call the pre-earth, or premortal, existence. Our understanding of the events in Genesis 1–3 is not complete if we ignore what went on before.

“This doctrine of premortal life was known to ancient Christians. For nearly five hundred years the doctrine was taught, but it was then rejected as a heresy by a clergy that had slipped into the Dark Ages of apostasy,” President Packer has taught.

“Once they rejected this doctrine, the doctrine of premortal life, and the doctrine of redemption for the dead, they could never unravel the mystery of life. They became like a man trying to assemble a strand of pearls on a string that was too short. There is no way they can put them all together. …

“There is no way to make sense out of life without a knowledge of the doctrine of premortal life.

“The idea that mortal birth is the beginning is preposterous. There is no way to explain life if you believe that.

“The notion that life ends with mortal death is ridiculous. There is no way to face life if you believe that.

“When we understand the doctrine of premortal life, then things fit together and make sense.”

We know from latter-day revelation that our existence did not begin with our birth on this earth and that we are eternal beings (see D&C 93:29). We are the sons and daughters of God the Father—his spirit children (see Heb. 12:9; D&C 76:24). We also know that there were opportunities in the pre-earth existence for us to learn and grow and that we had our moral agency to choose (see Alma 13:3).

Additionally, we know that gender did not begin at birth; it existed in the pre-earth life. In the document “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” we read: “All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

We know that there was a council of the Gods in which the plan of our Eternal Father was sustained. This plan included the Creation of the earth on which we now dwell (see Abr. 3:24). The plan provided that while here we would be tested according to the commandments God would give us, and we would have moral agency to choose (Moses 6:33; Moses 7:33).

This plan presupposed that Adam and Eve would fall from the Garden of Eden, so it provided for the Savior (see Alma 34:9–10, 14–15), a mediator who would provide the means whereby we could succeed in this earth-life experience and return to our Father in Heaven prepared for the next phase of our development (see Alma 12:24).

A “grand council” was held. There God the Father’s spirit children were taught the plan. The firstborn of our Father’s children was chosen as the Savior and Redeemer (see Abr. 3:27). Those who did not sustain that choice rebelled (see Abr. 3:28). They did not keep their first estate, were cast out of heaven, and became Satan and his angels (see Rev. 12:7–9; Moses 4:3–4; D&C 29:36; D&C 76:28).

The plan called for those who kept their first estate to come to this earth (the second estate), receive a mortal body, and be tested to see if they would obey the Father in everything (see Abr. 3:25–26). The time and “the bounds of [our] habitation” were predetermined (Acts 17:26), and some were even foreordained to callings on this earth (see Abr. 3:23; Alma 13:3–9).

The Creation

The six basic questions often asked about the Creation are when, how, where, what, why, and who. The first three of these—when, how, and where—are left obscure by the Lord in all the accounts we have of the Creation. He gave us only this point of reference concerning when the Creation took place: “in the beginning” (Gen. 1:1). We look with genuine interest at the work of persons who attempt to determine the age of the earth, but the answer may escape us all until the Savior reveals all things concerning this earth after the Second Coming (see D&C 101:32–34). In describing how the Creation was accomplished, he told us that he spoke and it was done (see, for example, Moses 2:3, 5–6, 9). As to where the Creation took place, we only have statements by early leaders that it was in the presence of God.

The overall answer to the last three questions—who, what, why—is that our Father in Heaven created all things for his own eternal purposes (see 2 Ne. 2:14–15). We know from both latter-day revelation and the Bible that God did not act alone. Speaking to Moses, he said: “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were also others who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth was formed? We know that Jesus our Savior was a Spirit when this great work was done. He did all of these mighty works before he tabernacled in the flesh” (see also Abr. 3:23–24).

Further, latter-day prophets inform us that God did not create the earth out of nothing, as is supposed by much of traditional Christianity today. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter” (D&C 131:7; see also D&C 93:33). Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles commented: “The materials out of which this earth was formed, are just as eternal as the materials of the glorious personage of the Lord himself. … This being, when he formed the earth, did not form it out of something that had no existence, but he formed it out of materials that had an existence from all eternity: they never had a beginning, neither will one particle of substance now in existence ever have an end. There are just as many particles now as there were at any previous period of duration, and will be while eternity lasts. Substance had no beginning; … the earth was formed out of eternal materials, and it was made to be inhabited and God peopled it with creatures of his own formation.”

This truth has also been discovered by scientists today who say that matter cannot be created or destroyed—only its form may be changed.

The story of the Creation is told twice in Genesis 1 and 2 but with a difference in the order of events. The reason for these two accounts is clearer in light of Moses 3:5: “For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air.”

Genesis 1 evidently teaches us about the preparation of the earth for humankind to inhabit and about the creation in heaven of the original plants, animals, and humans—Adam and Eve. Their bodies were physical but not yet subject to death. Genesis 2 evidently teaches us about the placing of these original plants, animals, and humans on the earth in their immortal state.

From the existing scriptural accounts we have, it is true that we cannot glean definitive answers to every question about the Creation. As a result, it is evident that the Lord did not intend the opening chapters of Genesis or other scriptures about the Creation to be textbook sections on geology, archeology, or science. Rather, they outline the basic facts of the Creation, life in the Garden of Eden, and the Fall as these facts fit into the plan of life and salvation.

This is the reason that I like civil, constructive conversation and discussion on gospel matters...because it invariably leads one to further search and study their own beliefs...which leads to a stronger testimony.

This is a great article in it's entirety, but I only pasted the two sections that I thought pertained to this thread.

I know this to be true, ALL spirits that come to earth were valiant in the pre-mortal existence. I know this, because the scriptures tell me this is true. All those who chose Lucifer's plan over Heavenly Father's plan were cast down after the war in heaven. Satan, and those who chose to follow him, can never have bodies of flesh and blood. This is critical. Because of our valiancy in the first estate, we are allowed to come to earth and receive a body of flesh and blood and to choose the straight and narrow.

Why is it critical to know that Satan and the spirits who followed him can never have bodies?

Because of these words from Joseph Smith: All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.

This places accountability firmly upon ourselves. Truly, Satan cannot make us do anything. He can only tempt, suggest, and tease...but he has no power over us. Our spirits truly do come here valiant and pure. Our spirits only become corrupted through our own agency and accountability.

I take nothing away from those who believe different than me...but for me, I have found what makes sense to me and what sounds right and fair.

I can think of nothing more beautiful than a gospel that gives everybody a chance to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father again. Those who did not have the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel upon this earth, will receive that opportunity in the Spirit World. That is why baptisms for the dead are so vital and crucial to our Heavenly Father's plan. If all must enter in by the same gate, but there were those that did not have the opportunity while on earth to hear of the gospel, then by having the baptism performed by proxy they are allowed the opportunity to enter in by that gate. To me, that is so beautiful. Why would a Father in Heaven, who loves all His children, only allow a select few to have the opportunity to return to Him? We ALL have the opportunity. That is beautiful. That makes sense. The Savior's atonement echoes Heavenly Father's desire for ALL of us to have the opportunity to return to Him. Without the atonement, it would not be possible for any of us to return.

To me, that just makes sense. To me, that just seems like what a loving Heavenly Father would do.

This was not directed at anybody in-particular. I just wanted to share my feelings and beliefs. I hope that it was on topic!