Proofs That You Can Use

[Ray]

This reminds me of the same kind of thinking expressed in a song called "Jesus loves me". If people know that Jesus loves them only because the Bible tells them so, that's sad. People should feel His love for them in their very soul. When a person says they know that Jesus loves them, it shouldn't be because if it is written in a book, it must be true.

If you don't know or can't recall the words of "Jesus loves me", they are:

Jesus loves me this I know,

for the Bible tells me so.

Little ones to Him belong,

They are weak but He is strong,

Yes, Jesus loves me,

Yes, Jesus loves me,

Yes, Jesus loves me,

The Bible tells me so.

I know Jesus loves me because I can feel it, and I can also feel His assurance telling me that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and the church is true. To me, this feeling is what matters the most, because this is what helps me want to change my life for the better.

[AFDaw]

That's the visiting teaching msg for this month :)

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Jan 28 2004, 12:27 PM

So, your testimonkey is built on a House of Strife? It grows through contention? That's an odd way of believing something.

AFD's Argument through Persecution

1. You made fun of my testimonkey!

2. Early Church members were driven from Nauvoo.

3. I feel persecuted.

4. Therefore the Church is True!

Wow...you might want to brush up on your reading and understanding skills, cause it looks like you missed the point.

Try again, k thanks.

Wow. You ever actually have a point?

So. Ray..are you saying that Jesus loving you is a proof? Can you prove it?

[Ray]

Well, I can’t prove to YOU that Jesus loves me, or that He has given me any other assurance, but I can tell you that He has testified of these truths to me and that His assurance is the source of my testimony. Can you say that, or do you have some other form of evidence to prove to you that what you believe is true?

If you were to say that your assurance of the truth comes from God, I would at least give you credit for acknowledging that His assurance is a form of evidence, but if we both say that we have God’s assurance on something and we both disagree with each other, then one of us is confused. God will not disagree with Himself on the same issue, so anything He says must be in harmony with anything else He has ever said about that issue. Or at minimum there must be some way to reconcile and explain why He would tell you one thing and tell me something different about the same issue. The question at hand is not that complex. The Book of Mormon is either what it claims to be, or it is not. Both assurances can not be true.

So I will ask again: What makes you think that you know the truth NOW?

What is your evidence that the Book of Mormon is NOT what it claims to be?

[HalleysComet]

In the judicial system back than,two witnesses were required and the Bible is one so in order for a religion to be true you need another "witness" to callaborate your findings. That is how I know it's true,Batty boy..

Moonshine

[Ray]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Jan 28 2004, 02:47 PM

That's the visiting teaching msg for this month :)

I'll have to ask my wife about her visiting teaching lessons more often. The love of God is my favorite issue. :)

[Cal]

Ray---the problem with your Santa Claus approach is that as soon as you got some evidence that there was no Santa, you quit believing. Well, some of us have seen just as much reason to stop believing the "story line" we were fed in LDS Sunday School. Not necessarily all of it, but much of it.

Trying to justify one's belief in the BoM is much like trying to convince others there is a Santa. There is too little evidence for the reality of either. The "feeling" thing won't cut it either As soon as someone tells me that they KNOW the Church is true because they have warm "fuzzies" about it, I don't mind pointing out that people all over the world get these "fuzzies" about all kinds of things that are often contradictory to mormonism. They have yet to address that issue for me.

It can also be pointed out that neurologists can apply electrodes to certain parts of the brain and cause you to "feel" all kinds of things that have no basis in the external world. IOW there is no evidence that internal feelings originate anywhere except within the human psyche, so how can "feelings" be evidence of the existance of something that is supposed to exist outside of the brain.

Sure you can feel good about something. I feel good about my wife. I feel good about going to Church, sometimes. I feel good about loving my parents and children. But, those feelings arise from evidence OUTSIDE of my brain itself. I can check with others, for example, to see if my parents REALLY exist. Now, I couldn't rely on others telling me that they also "feel" good about my parents if they couldn't also actually VERIFY having seen them, and that they exist. IOW, a lot of mormons think that since other mormons describe having warm fuzzies, that THIS is evidence of the truth of their belief. It isn't. It can't be. Evidence, by definition, is external to oneself.

Having faith in the BoM may give rise to nice warm feelings. That's nice, but it doesn't say anything about the history of the American continent. The reason the scientific method has been so successful in uncovering truth is that it doesn't depend on emotion. Human emotion is inherently unreliable. History and experience have demonstrated this over and over. Sometimes we have to rely on intuition,emotion and gut feeling, but it is only wise to do so when we have NO external knowledge base to draw from. For example, I may have a "gut" feeling that my car has four flat tires, but only the fool would decide to walk to work without looking in the garage to see if the feeling matches REALITY. (Of course, there is a lot to be said for walking to work)

I think this is what anti- and I and many others here have done in relation to LDS history. We may have had "feelings" about the church which likely originated in the social influence of our upbrings or in other emotional needs, but when external evidence became available that we could compare to what we had been taught to "feel", we decided (as the guy with the feeling about the flat tire did) that we needed to modify our "feelings" to better fit reality.

I have to admit that I sometimes miss that warm fuzzy feeling. But, that is like saying, I miss the highs I used to get smoking MJ. (I never have smoke MJ--just using an example). There are a lot of things that you can do to get euphoric feelings---these feelings don't mean you have just verified the meaning of the universe. I may believe, on an LSD high that I can fly to the point of jumping out a 10 story window. How much stronger of a "testimony" can someone have than being willing to jump out of a 10 story window? Does it prove they were right?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 28 2004, 06:50 PM

Well, some of us have seen just as much reason to stop believing the "story line" we were fed in LDS Sunday School. Not necessarily all of it, but much of it.

And I don't think anyone is denying you that right. But the least you could do is respect our right to believe in it. Why try to question what others beliefs are? I don't care what your beliefs are, I don't care what my neighbors beliefs are, I don't care what the Pope believes. As long as everyone beliefs don't interfere with me than I'm cool. Like Biz saying that she has faith that there are invisible bats in her attic (or whatever that was) By all means...believe whatever you want.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Ray+Jan 28 2004, 05:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Jan 28 2004, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Jan 28 2004, 02:47 PM

That's the visiting teaching msg for this month :)

I'll have to ask my wife about her visiting teaching lessons more often. The love of God is my favorite issue. :)

Btw...you can go to the Relief Society section and Jan's msg is posted there.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Jan 29 2004, 12:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Jan 29 2004, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 28 2004, 06:50 PM

Well, some of us have seen just as much reason to stop believing the "story line" we were fed in LDS Sunday School. Not necessarily all of it, but much of it.

And I don't think anyone is denying you that right. But the least you could do is respect our right to believe in it. Why try to question what others beliefs are? I don't care what your beliefs are, I don't care what my neighbors beliefs are, I don't care what the Pope believes. As long as everyone beliefs don't interfere with me than I'm cool. Like Biz saying that she has faith that there are invisible bats in her attic (or whatever that was) By all means...believe whatever you want.

Ah. But you DO care. You belong and support a Church that sends out 60,000 missionaries into the world to do precisely what you claim you don't care about.

[AFDaw]

To provide the msg for those that WANT to listen. If they say "NO, not interested" (which many do while going door to door) then the missionaries leave it be. Not only that, but the overwhelming majority of new members come from people contacting the church (through the commercials) or through member referrals.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Jan 29 2004, 12:44 PM

To provide the msg for those that WANT to listen. If they say "NO, not interested" (which many do while going door to door) then the missionaries leave it be. Not only that, but the overwhelming majority of new members come from people contacting the church (through the commercials) or through member referrals.

And that's fine that your Church has a softer, gentler touch. BUT, you do care. You Church cares. Mormon parents care what their children believe. Mormon spouses care what their partners believe. And no, a good portion of the latter two don't let the issue drop. So. YOU may think you don't care, but at the very least you do belong to a Church that does care. You tacitly support its missionary program. Just because your approach is different doesn't mean you don't care.

[Ray]

Ray---the problem with your Santa Claus approach is that as soon as you got some evidence that there was no Santa, you quit believing. Well, some of us have seen just as much reason to stop believing the "story line" we were fed in LDS Sunday School. Not necessarily all of it, but much of it.

I think you missed a few points when you were trying to follow my line of thinking about my example of Santa Claus, Cal, but maybe that’s because I didn’t fully explain what my idea of Santa Claus was. I’ll go into a little more detail for you.

I once believed that Santa Claus was the one who had been bringing me my Christmas presents, until my parents told me that they were the ones who had been bringing them. To me, Santa Claus was a really nice fat man with a white beard and a red suit, who flew around the world in a sleigh pulled by reindeer to deliver Christmas presents that he and his elves had made at the North Pole. What I knew about my parents did not harmonize with my understanding of Santa Claus, so both ideas could not have been true. Either one was true and one was false, or both ideas were false. Over the years I have seen that Christmas presents are given by regular people, and that they do not come from someone who fits my childhood description of Santa Claus. Some people still believe in that fairy tale, but nobody I know of has ever seen someone who fits that description, and nobody fitting that description has ever revealed himself to anyone I have ever known. Could he still exist? I will admit that it is possible, but I do not have Faith in him, and it seems to me that the only people who do have faith in him, that I have seen or heard about, are people who merely accept the fairy tale that has been told to them.

My faith in the Book of Mormon is different. While it is true that I also haven’t seen any physical evidence, to show me that people who once lived on the American continents wrote this record, I have received and I continue to receive a testimony from God telling me that the record is truly what it claims to be. This testimony is real, and I can feel the truth within this testimony just as much as I can feel the truth in anything that someone else tells me. Until I feel confident about the truth that someone tells me, I have doubts. What removes the doubts? The power of truth.

Have you never felt the power of truth without first having to see physical evidence to support what someone is telling you? When your wife tells you she loves you, how do you know that she is speaking the truth? What makes you think she isn’t lying to you, possibly to take advantage of you. How can your wife prove to you that she loves you? What can she show you to prove the truth of her words? How else do you know, unless you can feel the truth of what she says communicated from her very soul to yours? Do you doubt her truthfulness now, wondering if maybe she is setting you up for a fall? Do you really put so little confidence and trust in what you feel someone has communicated to you?

Until you feel the power of love, and the power of faith, an assurance from one soul to another, you will never know the power of truth about things that you can not physically see for yourself. Until you feel Faith from God, assuring you that the Book of Mormon is true, you will never know that it is what it claims to be. (This is because the Book of Mormon has already been written, and there is no way for you to physically see whether it was written by people who once inhabited the American continents)

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 29 2004, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 29 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Jan 29 2004, 12:44 PM

To provide the msg for those that WANT to listen.  If they say "NO, not interested" (which many do while going door to door) then the missionaries leave it be.  Not only that, but the overwhelming majority of new members come from people contacting the church (through the commercials) or through member referrals.

And that's fine that your Church has a softer, gentler touch. BUT, you do care. You Church cares. Mormon parents care what their children believe. Mormon spouses care what their partners believe. And no, a good portion of the latter two don't let the issue drop. So. YOU may think you don't care, but at the very least you do belong to a Church that does care. You tacitly support its missionary program. Just because your approach is different doesn't mean you don't care.

Yes...I care what my husband believes, and what my children believe. But do I care what you believe? NO way.

I assumed this was obvious, but since it's not, I'll make sure it's obvious now. I do not care what PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ME believe.

[Cal]

AFDaw---

Quoting you...."This testimony is real, and I can feel the truth within this"

Since when did "feeling" that something is real, MAKE it real. The only thing that is REAL is that you THINK it is. That is not evidence of ANYTHING. You make it sound as though "feeling" is a proper substitute for evidence. I just got through showing you that it isn't and can't be. Chemicals or even direct stimulation of your brain can make you feel lots of things that aren't true. Feelings have nothing to do with reality. The only thing "feelings" are good for is judging your internal state. It says nothing about the BoM or anything else.

[Ray]

Cal,

Try to pay attention to who is talking to you, okay? And while you’re at it, try to pay attention to what I’m saying. It may be a bit of a challenge for you, but I’m sure you can do it.

The testimony that I have is just as real as the love that I feel. YOU may not be able to feel what I feel, but I can. I can feel the love that I have from God, and I can feel the love that I have from my wife. If you can’t feel the love that you have from God, can’t you at least feel the love that you have from your wife? If she truly loves you, and you have felt of that love before, I would think that you would know exactly what I am talking about. Can’t you answer a simple question with something like “Yes, I know that my wife loves me, and I know that her love is real” ??? Do you attribute the love that you feel from your wife to a chemical reaction in your body? Do you think your body might be conspiring with your wife to delude you into believing that she loves you when she really truly doesn’t? If you can’t acknowledge that the love you have from your wife is real, a wife who I assume you spend time with every day, or at least enough time to know how she truly feels, how do you expect to know that you are loved by a God that you can’t see? Do you expect to remain without a knowledge of the love that God has for you until you can see some other kind of physical evidence?

[AFDaw]

Since you directed that at me, despite it should have been directed at Ray, I will say this.

I'm not asking for you to understand my faith or my testimony. So I don't care if it doesn't prove anything to you. You are the one that wants to make us doubt our faith by saying something to the effect of "since when does feeling something make it real" or whatever. Since you can't "feel" what I or anyone else "feels" then you can't really say whether or not it's true to us or not, can you?

[Cal]

Ray and AFDaw--I have no doubt that you "feel" lots of things--still doesn't have any meaning outside of you.

As far as my feelings for my wife or anyone else--those feeling arize from something OUTSIDE OF MYSELF. My wife and I interact---what you seem to be saying is that even if a person has NO wife, he should feel her love.

Before you can convince me that you feel the love of God, you are going to have to convince me there is one. If I told you that I felt the love of my wife, but couldn't prove to you I had a wife, wouldn't you be a little skeptical?

[Ray]

As far as my feelings for my wife or anyone else--those feeling arise from something OUTSIDE OF MYSELF. My wife and I interact---

Exactly. God and I also interact. The feelings that He gives me come from Him. He is also outside of myself.

what you seem to be saying is that even if a person has NO wife, he should feel her love.

Heh, how you come up with that logic is beyond me. I wasn’t talking to a person who said he had no wife, I was talking to you, and you have said that you have a wife. I also have a wife, and I know how it feels to receive her love and know that her love is real. I was hoping to build on that common ground between us.

Before you can convince me that you feel the love of God, you are going to have to convince me there is one.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am testifying about what I feel, and what I know, and what I know you can feel if you do what I have done to get where I am. If you choose to ignore my testimony, that is your choice, but I would hope you would at least give my words some consideration. There is a lot at stake here, and I only have your best interests at heart.

If I told you that I felt the love of my wife, but couldn't prove to you I had a wife, wouldn't you be a little skeptical?

No, I probably would have tried to reason with you in some other way. If you don’t have a wife, I know you have a Mom, and hopefully your Mom loves you and you know that her love is real too.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ray@Jan 29 2004, 05:57 PM

As far as my feelings for my wife or anyone else--those feeling arise from something OUTSIDE OF MYSELF. My wife and I interact---

Exactly. God and I also interact. The feelings that He gives me come from Him. He is also outside of myself.

what you seem to be saying is that even if a person has NO wife, he should feel her love.

Heh, how you come up with that logic is beyond me. I wasn’t talking to a person who said he had no wife, I was talking to you, and you have said that you have a wife. I also have a wife, and I know how it feels to receive her love and know that her love is real. I was hoping to build on that common ground between us.

Before you can convince me that you feel the love of God, you are going to have to convince me there is one.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am testifying about what I feel, and what I know, and what I know you can feel if you do what I have done to get where I am. If you choose to ignore my testimony, that is your choice, but I would hope you would at least give my words some consideration. There is a lot at stake here, and I only have your best interests at heart.

If I told you that I felt the love of my wife, but couldn't prove to you I had a wife, wouldn't you be a little skeptical?

No, I probably would have tried to reason with you in some other way. If you don’t have a wife, I know you have a Mom, and hopefully your Mom loves you and you know that her love is real too.

Ray--you are a master at missing the point. Obviously one can talk himself into feeling anything. I can feel the love of green monkeys in the refrigerator if I truely want to. The difficult part is proving to anyone else that there actually are green monkeys in the fridge.

You say you don't have to convince me of anything. Of course you don't. And for you sake, it is a good thing you don't, because I suspect you can't.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 29 2004, 06:04 PM

I can feel the love of green monkeys in the refrigerator if I truely want to. The difficult part is proving to anyone else that there actually are green monkeys in the fridge.

I know with every fibre of my being that the monkeys in your fridge are purple, not green.

[Cal]

Yes, I was beginning to wonder. I better turn the temperature up a little bit.

[Guest antishock82003]

Aaaaah, yes. The ubiquitous "Truth". My fantasy is real because my imaginary god made me feel that way, thus your fantasy is fake and your imaginary god is fake.

Cal,

Great analogy with the wife thing. You nailed it.

Look. You can lead a TBM to the water, but you can't make her jump in and say hallelujah. Ray & AFD are possibly INCAPABLE of seeing reality in any other fashion than the one they've embraced. I say this mainly because of the quotes Paul and I have provided regarding the Hill Cumorah. There can be no doubt as to the EXACT position of the Church on this matter. None. And yet her pursists in denying the obvious...which, to be frank, is disturbing. It's very disturbing for me to see someone look at a quote and have it not register. I just don't know what to say beyond that. At the very least it's a window into his mind....

[Cal]

Thanks, anti-. I guess when a person dispenses with the requirement of logic and evidence, ANYTHING can become true. This is what is scary about Ray and AFDaw---all it would take is some other charismatic to come along, with a BETTER "feeling", and away they would go.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 28 2004, 11:30 AM

Something I have learned.

You can't change the way people are... you can only change the way in which you react or don't react to them.

uuuuummmm.