Interpretation of Matt 24: 40-41 or JS M-1:44-45

[prisonchaplain]

Your theory presumes the pre-trib rapture as fact. Maybe the verse is referring to the time of the 2nd coming when the wicked are burned (taken from the earth).

I can't wrap my mind around how the 2nd coming, following many obvious Tribulation events, could happen suddenly, as a thief in the night, without warning, etc. In fact, one could argue that the belief in a post-tribulation snatching away of unbelievers could lead to the same complacency that some charge us pre-tribbers with.

Frankly, I'm not so much concerned with views on the Tribulation as I am whether believers understand that the return of Christ (whether for a Rapture of believers or for final judgment before the Millenium) is imminent, and that we must be ready now, and not assume that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

[bert10]

Hi...MrNirom....the understanding of those verses is the opposite what the world think they mean.

They who remain shall be those who are not the wicked. The ones taken are the ones who cannot withstand that day.

When the earth is lowered in Glory as in the fall or raised in glory at the second coming...there need to be a change of the bodies to follow the earth either in the fall or out of it. That is the best way I can say it. Those who cannot do it shall be burned away. The earth shall be transformed and and those who shall remain are those whom shall be transformed it.

Isaiah through the Spirit said that there would be few men left [on the earth].

The Burning day of the Lord.

Isaiah 34:9 - And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

I do not wish to go into prophecy ..

Peace be unto you

bert10

Here are two passages of scripture that I am trying to understand.. I gave you the links so you can see the verses in context. Can someone explain the interpretations to me.. Thanks.

Matthew 24

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1

44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the last days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

[bert10]

Hi KosherxMorg...you are correct. Many Christians have used those verses in error. Especially to support their abominable doctrine called the 'Rapture'. I do not wish to repeat the explanation...please find my other posting in this tread.

There are two Great coming yet to occur. And there are prophecies for both. Many have confused what will happened at the end of the millennium with the Coming that the Lord shall set up the kingdom.

Nowhere in the past, not even when the flood came that the Lord caused the people to be raptured. God was able to protect and even allow the children of Israel in the land of Goshen under Moses to prosper while the plagues was hurting Egypt. God has used these things in the past to perfect the faith of the Saints. Another clue as to who will be raptured [ie....translated which is for all who become born again and overcome the world...and there is no time prescribed for this -- it happens whenever a person is ready to receive the promises of Eternal Life in the flesh]or not.

The clue is this one..if a person is not worthy to see the Lord right now at this instance he is not any more worthy the next morning should Christ come.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Where does the scripture say the one being left is the bad guy? The rapture theory using these verses is a prime example of presumptive scriptural interpretation. The rapture is a satanic alternative to New Jerusalem. YWH has commanded believers to come together as one and build a place of refuge, not wait to be snatched away at the first sign of trouble. New Jerusalem is where those escaped out of the world will be protected.

[Guest Xzain]

I can't wrap my mind around how the 2nd coming, following many obvious Tribulation events, could happen suddenly, as a thief in the night, without warning, etc.

I understand (I think) what you're saying. I have always thought that the 2nd coming will happen 'as a thief in the night' in suddeness, but believers will be prepared for it because they will have discerned the signs of the times. The wicked and unbelievers will be completely unprepared.

Frankly, I'm not so much concerned with views on the Tribulation as I am whether believers understand that the return of Christ (whether for a Rapture of believers or for final judgment before the Millenium) is imminent, and that we must be ready now, and not assume that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

Amen, friend. Although I believe there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled, I agree wholeheartedly that the emphasis must be on preperation and righteousness now, not later. Indeed, that is a very large reason that we have the prophecies of the end times (IMHO).

Edited June 10, 2008 by Xzain

[prisonchaplain]

I've been pondering why it is that I always assumed that the snatching up that is alluded to in Matthew is targeting believers, and not the wicked. It came to me today--because of another passage--1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. In it we are told that Jesus will return in the sky, and that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who remain and are alive...

Some might argue that this refers to the 2nd coming, but we pre-tribbers join that with the Matthew passage, and are convinced that the imminent return of Jesus is to take his bride, the Church, away, before the time of troubles. Further, that those who are martyred during the Great Tribulation are those who converted, most, just after realizing that all the millions who are missing were believers in Christ. Far better to go on the first flight out, in my always humble opinion.

[hethathathears]

I would like to thank Mr. Niron for bringing up this subject. For about 10 years now I have sat on the side line listening to various preaching on the subject of the Rapture. The preachers were all very convincing, and yet I knew in the pit of my stomach that my faith didn't buy into the whole Rapture thing. But all in all, I never really gave it a serious study. From what my finite mind understands is that we as LDS believe that we are going to stay on the earth until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. And that means going through the tribulation period that is laid out in the bible, or in other words, the final 7 years as spoken of in Daniel 9.

And the Pre-Trib people (Evangelicals) believe that they are going to be beamed out before the excitement comes. I kind of wish the Pre-Trib doctrine was true, but looking at Jesus' words, I can't see that happening. Or maybe it's just me.

Let me explain- If the Pre-Trib doctrine is true, Jesus Christ will come 7 years before his 2nd coming, but nobody will see him. People will just disappear as in the Left Behind series. But the scriptures testify that when the Savior does come all will see Him.

"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky...." Matt 24:27, 30

The other truth we learn from Matt 24:22 Is that the days of tribulation will be cut short for the elects sake. Now the question- if the Pre-Trib was a true doctrine, wouldn't all the elect be raptured off this rock when Jesus would do his 1st 2nd coming appearance in which nobody sees him?

I am of the mind that just a being saved by grace was popularized by Martin Luther, so the Rapture doctrine was developed and made popular by John Nelson Darby back in 1830.

Again, I thank the powers to be for forcing me to finally research the subject of Rapture.

Edited June 12, 2008 by hethathathears

[prisonchaplain]

And the Pre-Trib people (Evangelicals) believe that they are going to be beamed out before the excitement comes. I kind of wish the Pre-Trib doctrine was true, but looking at Jesus' words, I can't see that happening. Or maybe it's just me.

A common argument against the pre-tribulation rapture is that God tends to bring his people THROUGH trouble--not pull them out. On the other hand, if the Tribulation is largely a time of judgment, it's not so hard for me to believe that God will remove us beforehand.

Let me explain- If the Pre-Trib doctrine is true, Jesus Christ will come 7 years before his 2nd coming, but nobody will see him. People will just disappear as in the Left Behind series. But the scriptures testify that when the Savior does come all will see Him.

Pre-tribulation adherents do not deny the 2nd coming of Christ--when every eye will see him. We simply believe that 7 years before that, we will "meet him in the air."

The other truth we learn from Matt 24:22 Is that the days of tribulation will be cut short for the elects sake. Now the question- if the Pre-Trib was a true doctrine, wouldn't all the elect be raptured off this rock when Jesus would do his 1st 2nd coming appearance in which nobody sees him?

We believe that many will be converted during the Tribulation. In fact, one major cause of conversion will be the disappearance of all the Christians. "Oh no...it was really true!"

I am of the mind that just a being saved by grace was popularized by Martin Luther, so the Rapture doctrine was developed and made popular by John Nelson Darby back in 1830. Again, I thank the powers to be for forcing me to finally research the subject of Rapture.

Could it be that God used Martin Luther to restore the doctrine of justification by faith, and that Darby was instrumental in the restoration of the doctrine of Jesus' imminent return for the Church?

[hethathathears]

As I have looked over your last several Blogs, I have noticed your concern that we acknowledge the "imminent return" of Jesus Christ. There is no doubt that we are in the last days. But when Jesus comes he will be as visible as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west. Matt 24:27

(This) is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field, on will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill, one will be taken and the other left. Matt. 24:40-41 Why? The righteous are taken up to meet the Savior and his angels, (1 Thess 4:16-17) while the wicked are burned as stubble.

And in 1 Thess 4, it isn't this quiet floating away type Rapture, it is with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God.

For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up. Mal 4:1

Nothing in Matt 24 or any other place says that there will be another 7 years, or even 3 1/2 years. The scriptures testify that when Christ comes again, all nations will see him (v 30) like lightning in the sky. (v 27) There won't be any secret appearances (v 26)

Actually, I agree with you that many will be converted during the tribulation, as that is scripture, however, your "one major cause of conversion will be the disappearance of all the Christians. "Oh no...it was really true!" that sounds more like a theory of justifying your position that actual scripture. Is their scripture that supports your claim?

Edited June 17, 2008 by hethathathears

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

The passages you cite are contextually contained within the famous Olivet Discourse.

When the entirety of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are looked at, the prophetic utterance of Jesus Christ literally was fulfilled in their (the disciples lifetime). This doctrine is known as Preterism - or realized Eschatology. Before anyone here starts refuting this post, allow me to explain.

If you take the entirity of Matthew 23-25, you find that Christ decries the woes unto the Sadduccess, the Religious leaders and those who adhered to the false teachings. He then departs (matthew 24) and his disciples ask him specifically when these things would happen. These things, meaning the pronounced woes of the religous people of First Century Jerusalem. According to Preterism, there are two camps of thought. The first is the Partial Preterists. Those who embrace that the coming of Christ was nothing more than his coming judgment upon the nation of Israel. The final culmination of God's wrath being poured out upon the Nation of the Israel, their ultimate end. Thus, the reference to the end of the age refers to the end of the Jewish Age and Epoch. It was when the end of this Jewish Epoch that occured in 70 AD when Titus came against Jerusalem. The historical event is known as the Roman and Jewish War and the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the Temple thereof (as prophecied by Jesus Christ).

Not only is this scripturally accurate, but it is also recorded in Josephus works, the Early Church Fathers (Tertullian, Eusebius and other such early church fathers), Tacitus, who was a Roman Historian.

Anyway, when you look at the wording of the passage, where two would be in the field, one has to take a look at the context of the passage. Christ says that when you (referring to the generation of his time) see the signs, to flew. Let the one on the rooftop not go down into his house, but flee. The one who is in the field, to flee. It is in this context that the presupposed doctrine of the Rapture is refuted. The imagery of two being in the field and one disappearing is not a vanishing act, but one would see the signs and know that the destruction of Jerusalem is about to occur and they flee as instructed, leaving the other behind to face the wrath to come.

When one studies the historical precedence of the Roman-Jewish War, the events of that time frame as recorded in the annals of history, one discovers that such a war has never been before seen in the history of mankind, nor has it ever been seen after that. Why? Because while the Roman Army camped outside the walls of Jerusalem and the Jews were battling with the Romans, they were battling amongst themselves. In fact, there were three factions of the Jewish people that were at civil war among one another.

In his work The Jewish Wars, Josephus describes what he witnessed. Cannabilsm, False teachers, prophets, Christs, etc. Not only that, but Josephus describes that the voice of God was heard from the temple saying "Let us get thee hence" as well as recording that there were seen astronomical events above Jerusalem (today, astronomers agree that Haileys Comet appeared in the night sky over Jerusalem during the seige and destruction), along with the fact that there were witnessed of Angels clad in battle armor above the Roman Army. Tacitus collabrates much of Josephus records. Especially saying "and the voice of the Gods were heard - let us depart hence".

So, when refuting the rapture of the Christian believer, ask them, what generation was Christ speaking to in regards to the context of Matthew 23-25? Because the greek word for generation has one meaning and interpretation and that is regarding the contemporaries of that specific generation. Not a future generation, or Jews.

When faced with historical evidence, the Christian believer who accepts the rapture can no longer explain away the doctrine of the rapture. In fact, the other scripture to show forth to disprove the notion that there is a rapture to come is the following: Matthew 13: 25-30, the parable of the Wheat and Tares and then in Matthew 13: 36-43 being the interpretation Christ gives.

I hope this helps. If you have any further questions or would like more information, I would be more than happen to provide and answer any and all questions.