Kosher and Elphaba's discussion about Church history

[Hemidakota]

As GOD does allow the 'tares' among the 'wheat' within the church.

[KosherXMorg]

Your examples aren't of compromise they are the allowing of evil to take it's course. God has never asked his people to quit obeying commandments to make the world happy. Why then did not Daniel not cease to pray per the edict of the King? What about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? Did he ask the Apostles to cease public preaching? No. The people of God survived ALL of those things faithful to the commandments they had been given. Would not have God sustained them through the persecution over plural marriage, if it was indeed a true principle?

[rameumptom]

The examples you give were limited to the scope of who they affected. It wasn't about an army being sent out to all of Israel to destroy them in any of these cases. To stop the mouths of lions is very different than wiping out armies and Washington DC to protect the saints from those attacking them, especially if God still had a purpose for the USA in future events.

Can we find where God gave exceptions in the Bible? Well, he gave King Hezekiah an extra 15 years of life, after telling him he was going to die that night. Why did God go back on his word after Hezekiah's prayer? Because God can be flexible in his decisions. This is not any different for the Saints. They prayed for an end to the persecutions, and God provided an answer to them by removing a prior command.

The Lord didn't have LDS stop preaching, either, even though threatened and murdered in many places. But those events did not risk the entire Church, either.

For me, God stopped plural marriage, because the attacks were distracting and preventing the Church from accomplishing more important things, like missionary and temple work. How could the temple work have continued with soldiers preventing people from completing its construction, much less the ordinances? Either God would have to wipe out the US army and give the LDS a miraculous win, removing a chance for people to develop faith and be judged properly; or he would have to compromise in order to have more important things to occur.

[Hemidakota]

This forum has it moments, when it really amazes me that I can relearn something that I completely forgotten over the years [Hezekiah's prayer]. Thanks.

[KosherXMorg]

Still doesn't jive would me. God wouldn't command his people to cease practicing a true principle to make nice with the world. Who to say God wouldn't have crushed the US Army and thus taken away said "distraction"?

[rameumptom]

Still doesn't jive would me. God wouldn't command his people to cease practicing a true principle to make nice with the world. Who to say God wouldn't have crushed the US Army and thus taken away said "distraction"?

I'm saying that he could have, but it didn't fit into God's overall plans. For Him, it was more important to keep open the doors of missionary work without wiping out the US government, which He would need in the future for physically opening up doors. For example, our entrance into major wars in the past have later opened up doors for LDS missionaries (WWI, WWII, Korean, etc). American diplomacy has also worked well in this area, such as the fall of the Iron Curtain - the East German temple was dedicated only 18 months before the fall of the Berlin Wall. coincidence? Or did God use Ronald Reagan to help prepare another part of the world for the gospel?

Want another example? How about "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments, but then God commands Moses to annihilate innocent women and children? Does that make God two-faced, because he isn't consistent? Why didn't God just wipe out Israel's enemies, instead of making them go to war and slaughter them? Or why did God have to allow Jacob's sons to sell Joseph into Egypt in order to save Israel? Couldn't God have made it rain on Canaan and keep Israel from falling into centuries of slavery?

You are welcome to remain unconvinced. But then you should just quit pretending to be a Christian, because the Bible has stories where God has compromised to allow things to occur (as in Hezekiah's story). To be honest requires giving the LDS the same consideration and leeway that you give the Jews and early Christians in the Bible.

Edited June 13, 2008 by rameumptom

[Guest Xzain]

Just to forward another example that I've always thought interesting-

When Alma the elder and his converts were subjected to servitude by the Lamanites (led by Amulon), they ceased praying vocally when commanded to. Praying to the Lord- vocally ('crying' to Him)- is a commandment laid out many times in scripture. In this example, the people were given a way to fulfill the greater aspect of the law- true communication with God- while temporarily forgoing some aspects of it because of the wicked oppression of their brothers.

Also- if God wiped out the US Army and anyone who raised their hands against the saints by His extraordinary powers, it would be far too obvious whose side He was on. It would eliminate all faith required to be LDS, therefore destroying His plans.

[KosherXMorg]

Hmmm.. I have never read "Thou shalt pray vocally to the Lord" as a requirement for exaltation.

God commanding Israel to remove the people from the land is not the same as God commanding people to cease to receive an ordinance taught as essential to exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

This discussion is getting old and we are just going around in circles. Off to something else.

[Hemidakota]

Doctrine and Covenants 20

... Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; ... house of each member, and exhort them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all ... house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all...

Doctrine and Covenants 19

...And again, I command thee that thou shalt pray vocally as well as in thy heart; yea, before ... blessed be the name of the Lord God! 38 Pray always, and I will pour out my Spirit upon...

Doctrine and Covenants 23

...take up your cross, in the which you must pray vocally before the world as well as in ...

[KosherXMorg]

Nice.

[Hemidakota]

I do believe the Savior and those assigned to Him [144,000] will remove those armies who opposed Him [and Zion] when He return.

[KosherXMorg]

Uh, ok. What post are you responding to exactly?

[Hemidakota]

When you spoke about the GOD removing armies that fight against HIM. Am I correct?

[KosherXMorg]

I don't remember posting anything like that.

[Hemidakota]

My bad....

[Elphaba]

This discussion is getting old and we are just going around in circles. Off to something else.

Before you go, I would really appreciate your thoughts on the post I wrote about the 1890 Manifesto and the effect it had the Church's members, including some leaving so they could continue practicing polygamy?

You indicated to me you knew a lot about the Church's history, so I assume you are aware of the historical aspects of my post.

I am seriously interested in your thoughts, and corrections if you have any.

Elphaba

[Tough Grits]

I have noticed on this forum, and others, that those who wish to lead current members and future members away from what we know to be true, that they define "knowing Church history" and "knowing our doctrines" as knowing the parts that are out-of-context, or no longer in practice, or flat out falsehoods conjured up to smear the Church and it's members.

I sincerely hope that all members with sincere and heartfelt questions and concerns are taking the matter to the Lord FIRST, and not a public forum where sometimes wolves hide among the sheep.

There is a proper order to all things, and the proper order to finding truth is to pray, ponder, search, and pray some more. This should be a process that never ends and is applied to all areas of the gospel.

I have been a member for 10 years. I still find it necessary to search out answers for myself in the scriptures and approved material of the Church, I still find it necessary to ponder what I have searched out, and I still find it necessary to pray over what I have read and pondered.

I know this will be a process that I will use until my mortal death.

Believe it or not, us members, we are educated. Too many times in the past few days very subtle remarks have been made about investigators needing to be educated.

I was an educated investigator who found this gospel to be true. I am still that same educated person. I did not become stupid or blind upon my baptism.

I am getting really tired of all the sarcasm, the subtle name-calling, the subtle bullying, the subtle attacks on our intelligence and beliefs, and I am getting tired of having others insuating that I need to apologize for my Church and/or beliefs, or that I need to feel ashamed, uninformed, or out-right stupid for my beliefs.

If these "wolves" are so intellectual, then why do they keep asking the same old recycled questions that previous "wolves" have asked? If these "wolves" are so intellectual, then why do they keep using the same points of falsehood that previous "wolves" have used to try and lead us astray?

I am not pointing any fingers or calling anybody out. I don't need to do that. If the users of this forum will listen to the Holy Ghost, then they will know exactly which posts were written with sincere hearts, sincere intents, and with the truths of the gospel.

For one, I like the fact that we do not bash other religions or individuals within our wards or within our very beliefs, doctrines, and principles.

Articles of Faith

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I agree with, and support that statement.

I wish others lived by the same principle.

For anybody wishing to know what our Church truly believes...please click on the link at the bottom of my post, "LDS.org" and you will find the official Church website where you can research for yourself exactly what we profess and try to live. Ponder what you find. Then pray with a sincere heart and a sincere desire to know if that which you read was true.

That is the only way to find truth.

Also, there are NO wolves at LDS.org. It is a "wolf-free" environment.

Elphaba,

I sincerely apologize for interrupting your thread. But I felt it necessary to address certain things that have been said in this thread and other threads as of late. If certain users have no shame in challenging us and our beliefs, then I will have no shame in standing for what I know to be true and I will have no shame in being pleased with the choice that I have made and the peace and happiness that I have in my life as a direct result.

But I do apologize for interrupting your thread.

~TG

Edited June 14, 2008 by Tough Grits

[Elphaba]

I sincerely apologize for interrupting your thread. But I felt it necessary to address certain things that have been said in this thread and other threads as of late. If certain users have no shame in challenging us and our beliefs, then I will have no shame in standing for what I know to be true and I will have no shame in being pleased with the choice that I have made and the peace and happiness that I have in my life as a direct result.

No problem.

But what, or who, are you talking about? What has been said on this thread that has upset you?

Elphaba

[Tough Grits]

Just reading through the last several posts...it becomes apparent that certain members of this forum can pretty much come as close as possible to questioning the Church, belittling other users and their respective posts or their manner of expressing themselves, and throwing constant questions and misdirections up, then back-peddling and trying to say that they didn't say that or pretend that they don't know what the other person is talking about.

I just think it is getting ridiculous. Why don't people say what they mean, and then stick to it. I understand that people can have a change of heart and/or change their minds, but that is not what is happening.

It just seems to be a constant theme lately on multiple threads.

I guess I could go back and quote each exact instance and phrase...but I don't believe that is necessary. There are so many threads that start out innocently enough, then certain users start to post and things start to go off the path from that very point. It is plain to see without me quoting each instance in which it occurred.

Just my take. Maybe I am the only one who feels that lately too many posts and users have been posting false, misleading information, and too many users have been attacking (even if in a subtle, sugar-coated manner) the other members of this forum for their beliefs and/or for their manner of expressing themselves. Maybe I am the only one who sees and feels this. If so, then I apologize.

[KosherXMorg]

Elphaba-

Sorry about not responding to the post you were referring to. I kind of ignored this topic for a while. I quite honestly haven't read probably the first 3-4 pages. Could you please repost the post and I will be happy to respond.

[Elphaba]

Elphaba-

Sorry about not responding to the post you were referring to. I kind of ignored this topic for a while. I quite honestly haven't read probably the first 3-4 pages. Could you please repost the post and I will be happy to respond.

Elphaba's post

[Elphaba]

, and too many users have been attacking (even if in a subtle, sugar-coated manner) the other members of this forum for their beliefs and/or for their manner of expressing themselves. Maybe I am the only one who sees and feels this. If so, then I apologize.

There is nothing to apologize for.

A number of people have written posts in this thread, and most of the time we disagree. But I expected that when I started the thread. Also, that is just the nature of a message board that welcomes people of all beliefs, as this one does.

I just don't know who your post applies to, so I am doing a lot of guessing. I know in another thread a member is very angry with me, but he won't actually tell me what I've done.

I can't read minds, but I do want to know who is doing what that has you concerned. If you'd like you can PM me.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[KosherXMorg]

I have written a post to Kosher, and hopefully he will actually read it and respond.

However, I noticed some people on this thread are upset because I wrote that members of the FLDS Church are also “Mormons.” While I understand this concern, I stand by my statement, as technically, it is true.

Rameumpton explained this well when he wrote:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints are, today, two completely different religions that, when looked at objectively, have virtually nothing in common.

But in the late 1800s, this was not the case.

In the 1880s, all members of the Church revered Joseph, some of whom had known him in their lifetimes, with even a few old enough they mourned him still. Additionally, Brigham Young, though a completely different personality than Joseph, was also highly respected and held in reverence by his flock, to whom he had preached that Celestial Marriage was God‘s commandment to his chosen people.

In the 1880s, all members of the Church believed the Bible and The Book of Mormon and were inspired by God, and they studied these scriptures often, both in their personal lives and during their religious meetings.

In the 1880s, the practice of “plural marriage,” was a religious rite, and to believers, had been instituted by Joseph, and under Brigham’s mantle it had become a commonplace thing around Salt Lake City, and throughout the territory, although the majority of members did not practice polygamy.

And then the 1890 Manifesto was announced.

It is understandable to me that many members, especially those already in and committed to polygamous relationships, were taken aback by the 1890 Manifesto. In fact, they did not believe it was a revelation at all, but a compromise.

Elder Dallin Oaks agrees with this, though he maintains President Woodruff did have a revelation. He says: “. . . It's a result of a Mormon compromise - and the Mormons retained their religious freedom. They won the right to propagate without persecution. They preserved their unique doctrines and so on. Those (remain) with us today, but other things that were essential to and a cause of earlier persecution were abandoned in that compromise as we entered the 20th century.”

The 1890 Manifesto caused a small, but, in human terms, significant number of members to believe President Woodruff was either a fallen prophet, or, as mentioned above, was only being expedient in renouncing polygamy.

These Saints had been taught by Church leaders, for forty years, that polygamy was a commandment of God, and that it was necessary to ensure their place in the Celestial Kingdom. They were also taught that God would never remove polygamy from the earth.

Hearing this repeated over the pulpit for forty years certainly ingrained the doctrine into many of the Latter-day Saint’s psyche.

However, whatever one believed, it was obvious the Church’s practice of polygamy was on its way out. Soon those whose faith in Celestial marriage remained unfazed started gathering together, creating different schisms.

And so began the fundamentalist LDS movement, with its adherents removing their families away from the Church they had traveled so hard to get to not that long ago.

While these Saints chose to become fundamentalists, they also continued to believe their doctrines and practices remained true to Joseph‘s and Brigham‘s teachings. Additionally they believed the Bible and The Book of Mormon were inspired of God.

These beliefs continue today in the fundamelists sects. And while polygamy is an excommunicable offense in the Church, the fact that the fundamentalists continue to believe Joseph and Brigham were prophets, and that the Book of Mormon is true, they do have the right to the name "Mormon."

This post is an extremely brief description of the fundamentalist movement of the 19th century. If it gives you a glimmer into the world of the polygamists of the 1880s, who were suddenly brought to their knees with the 1890 Manifesto, perhaps you can understand how heartwrenching their decision to move their famlies elsewhere was.

These fundamentalists are also an integral part of the Church's history. The two paths divurged, but at one time they were one. And these fundamentalists are still Mormon pioneers, though not of the Church. However, they had the best of intentions when they traveled into deeper, more desolate spots in the desert. This included the “thirteen” who were the original ancestors of the current Fundamentalist Latter day Saints church.

I have only read two journals kept by 19th century fundamentalists, and both were riveting. To condemn these people for their beliefs is shortsighted, as they had more in common with the Church’s pioneers than not. Unfortunately, such is not the case today.

While there is obviously much disagreement about these Mormon fundamentalists, especially from me with regard to child abuse, I have no doubt the vast majority are decent people still trying to live their lives as they believe God has commanded.

Elphaba

I would just add that the church's sending Apostle and members to the Mexican colonies to continue sealing plural marriages only added to the belief by those fundamentalists who believed the Manifesto was a farce. Abraham Cannon, John W. Taylor, and Matthias Cowley were all called upon to seal plural marriages is the Mexican Colonies. The Stake President from my years as a teenager is a grandson of Anson Call who is documented to have taken a wife after the Manifesto with full approval.

[Guest User-Removed]

I have noticed on this forum, and others, that those who wish to lead current members and future members away from what we know to be true, that they define "knowing Church history" and "knowing our doctrines" as knowing the parts that are out-of-context, or no longer in practice, or flat out falsehoods conjured up to smear the Church and it's members.

I sincerely hope that all members with sincere and heartfelt questions and concerns are taking the matter to the Lord FIRST, and not a public forum where sometimes wolves hide among the sheep.

There is a proper order to all things, and the proper order to finding truth is to pray, ponder, search, and pray some more. This should be a process that never ends and is applied to all areas of the gospel.

I have been a member for 10 years. I still find it necessary to search out answers for myself in the scriptures and approved material of the Church, I still find it necessary to ponder what I have searched out, and I still find it necessary to pray over what I have read and pondered.

I know this will be a process that I will use until my mortal death.

Believe it or not, us members, we are educated. Too many times in the past few days very subtle remarks have been made about investigators needing to be educated.

I was an educated investigator who found this gospel to be true. I am still that same educated person. I did not become stupid or blind upon my baptism.

I am getting really tired of all the sarcasm, the subtle name-calling, the subtle bullying, the subtle attacks on our intelligence and beliefs, and I am getting tired of having others insuating that I need to apologize for my Church and/or beliefs, or that I need to feel ashamed, uninformed, or out-right stupid for my beliefs.

If these "wolves" are so intellectual, then why do they keep asking the same old recycled questions that previous "wolves" have asked? If these "wolves" are so intellectual, then why do they keep using the same points of falsehood that previous "wolves" have used to try and lead us astray?

I am not pointing any fingers or calling anybody out. I don't need to do that. If the users of this forum will listen to the Holy Ghost, then they will know exactly which posts were written with sincere hearts, sincere intents, and with the truths of the gospel.

For one, I like the fact that we do not bash other religions or individuals within our wards or within our very beliefs, doctrines, and principles.

Articles of Faith

I agree with, and support that statement.

I wish others lived by the same principle.

For anybody wishing to know what our Church truly believes...please click on the link at the bottom of my post, "LDS.org" and you will find the official Church website where you can research for yourself exactly what we profess and try to live. Ponder what you find. Then pray with a sincere heart and a sincere desire to know if that which you read was true.

That is the only way to find truth.

Also, there are NO wolves at LDS.org. It is a "wolf-free" environment.

Elphaba,

I sincerely apologize for interrupting your thread. But I felt it necessary to address certain things that have been said in this thread and other threads as of late. If certain users have no shame in challenging us and our beliefs, then I will have no shame in standing for what I know to be true and I will have no shame in being pleased with the choice that I have made and the peace and happiness that I have in my life as a direct result.

But I do apologize for interrupting your thread.

~TG

This is what Isaiah referred to when he spoke of calling good evil, and evil good.

You'll also recall that most of the Anti-Christ's in the Book of Mormon were quite crafty in their ability to twist and distort Church history...

NOW...Before anyone starts screaming that I've somehow called them a Korihor...please untwist your knickers...I've never found an anti or an apostate on any electronic thread quite as bright as I suspect Korihor was...

[KosherXMorg]

Welcome back Skip. I finally know your real name and what your gospel hobby is. It will be nice to read calm, well thought out ideas of yours.