How did Joseph translate the Book of Mormon?

[bytor2112]

Joseph translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God, but how? By what method? I am often asked why the BOM contains errors found in the KJV Bible or why greek words like Christ are found in the BOM. There are many other questions about translation. Was it word for word or was it a vision and he added the narration? I have my own theories, but would enjoy hearing your thoughts on how this marvelous work and a wonder came into being.

[Hemidakota]

There two different forms of usage that aided Joseph Smith: Urim & Thummim [see Wentworth Letter] and later when he found a Seer stone in a local well, he used that instead. The Urim and Thummim was designed for people of larger statue, namely the people of Jared. [book of Ether].

A good start in understanding on how, who, when, and what was used is the PDF article you can find online - Joseph Smith: "The Gift of Seeing" by Packard Van Wagoner and Steve Walker.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Dale]

I propose not only Joseph Smith, but Jesus could have both read a KJV Bible by the 19th century. The Lord no doubt considered those parts of the Bible were translated correctly so used it in translation. The Lord probably doesn't care about including later created textual variants, or slightly less ancient wording as long as the changes do not effect the plain and precious message of the Book of Mormon.

With Greek words like Christ for example. I do not see that name as being on the plates. But Joseph Smith simply used it to translate a different word into english. But in no way does the use of a greek word mean such a word was on the plates. FAIR Wiki has a Book of Mormon section dealing with such issues. LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage The link to its wiki is found on the main page.

David Whitmer and Martin Harris both left statements saying God protected the translation from mistakes. That when Joseph Smith made a mistake the Lord alway's corrected it. To me their imaginings are proved invalid as the text like the Bible text has many textual variants. Joseph Smith said the book was most correct he did not mean inerrantly correct. He never accepted the idea of Biblical inerrancy.

I hold Blake Ostlers idea the book contains modern expansions and prophetic commentary on the part of Joseph smith. But he holds at the same time that the book has things of antiquity in the book. One he mentioned was ancient covenental renewal festivals. He has a website with an apologetics section where he presents and defends his position.

As far as his method of translation. He started out using the larger interpreters that came with the plates. Then he subsituted for convenience a stone which he placed in a hat. He may have seen words in his head which he dictated to scribes. I don't think he saw the text in vision.

I an not LDS, but a Reorganized Latter Day Saint. We went to the shorter name Community of Christ in 2001. I study such issues for self defense purposes.

[HiJolly]

I believe that the Spirit worked with Joseph's subconscious mind to pull up the meaning or intent of the original Book of Mormon authors as accurately & completely as possible, into Joseph's conscious mind, in the form of illuminated text, which Joseph then read off to whomever was recording the 'translation' at the time.

I believe this takes into account the evidence that it was a 'tight' translation (Hebrew grammar elements, chiasmus, painstakingly spelled out proper names), yet contained such 19th century colloquialisms as "adieu", and the KJV Bible texts.

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

By the aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say, 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.

[HiJolly]

By the aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say, 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected,

I agree with all of this.

so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.

um.... dang. You need help on this part, and I'm not sure what to say without sounding really callous. Sorry. Perhaps if you read Royal Skouson's work? Try this link: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?filename=MzY3MjYyMDEyLTMtMS5wZGY=&type=amJtcw====

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

Sorry, should have included this as well.........

According to Edward Stevenson, Martin Harris explained the translation as follows:

Joseph's brother William made a statement to similar effect in Wiliam Smith on Mormonism (Lamoni, Iowa: Herald Steam Book and Job Office, 1883

[bytor2112]

The source for the above quotes are from Stephen D Ricks. "Joseph Smith translation of the Book of Mormon". Incidentally, he disagrees with the accounts....... as do I. Just looking for others thoughts.:)

[Snow]

I propose not only Joseph Smith, but Jesus could have both read a KJV Bible by the 19th century. The Lord no doubt considered those parts of the Bible were translated correctly so used it in translation. The Lord probably doesn't care about including later created textual variants, or slightly less ancient wording as long as the changes do not effect the plain and precious message of the Book of Mormon.

... so God followed the KJV in spite of the errors because it was good enough?

oh brother!

[Dale]

I recall reading at FAIR that the KJV Bible not the more ancient manuscripts influenced some parts of the translation. Book of Mormon anachronisms/Translation Errors from the KJV.

Book of Mormon anachronisms/Translation Errors from the KJV - FAIRMormon

If Joseph Smith did not have a Bible in front of him somebody did. Otherwise to include any modern variants not found in ancient manuscripts would require a vast memory. Either Joseph Smith had that memory of the KJV or someone else did. But i based my answer on ideas that came to me while studying the article from FAIR.

[Aphrodite]

There two different forms of usage that aided Joseph Smith: Urim & Thummim [see Wentworth Letter] and later when he found a Seer stone in a local well, he used that instead. The Urim and Thummim was designed for people of larger statue, namely the people of Jared. [book of Ether].

A good start in understanding on how, who, when, and what was used is the PDF article you can find online - Joseph Smith: "The Gift of Seeing" by Packard Van Wagoner and Steve Waker.

HUH? He used a stone he found in a WELL? See this is why I have so many problems with the church-Why dont I know that? How dodgy does it make the whole translation process sound? Why was I taught he used the Urim and thummim but the whole seer stone thing was edited out? I just dont get it.

[Hemidakota]

Dale - I totally disagree of the Greek term – Christ - was a translation from another Hebrew word. If one talked to the Savior face-to-face, He does call Himself - Jesus the Christ. It is the same term that the early forefathers used to call Jehovah.

I don't recall ever that Joseph when correcting the KJV would alter the original writer, even if the original writer was incorrect. I think it was to put back the words, which was either altered or removed.

Bytor2112 - Yes, it is how Joseph translated the BOM, words would appear on the stone and if the translator didn't correctly write it down, the words would not disappear. Joseph stopped using the U&T due to the size of the spectacles were designed for someone of large statue [9-feet or bigger].

Brigham Young had two seer stones in his possession [his estate] upon his death. Both stones were given to the church archives as did Joseph's Seer Stone.

[Hemidakota]

HUH? He used a stone he found in a WELL? See this is why I have so many problems with the church-Why dont I know that? How dodgy does it make the whole translation process sound? Why was I taught he used the Urim and thummim but the whole seer stone thing was edited out? I just dont get it.

It is a done through a narrowed view of historical writer. I have a problem with people who alter the original points, or those who would credit someone who was not the original discoverer.

[HiJolly]

HUH? He used a stone he found in a WELL? See this is why I have so many problems with the church-Why dont I know that? How dodgy does it make the whole translation process sound? Why was I taught he used the Urim and thummim but the whole seer stone thing was edited out? I just dont get it.

I have completely re-written my original response. I was quite rude, and I apologize.

The first time I ever heard/learned of 'church history' that was not taught in Church, was when I was a teenager, and was reading a book about Joseph Smith. I saw in the book that Joseph was married (or 'sealed') to dozens of women. This was news to me, and I immediately asked my mother about it. She told me that after Joseph was killed, many, many women wanted to be sealed to him, and this was done *after his death*. I was satisfied with her response, and did not learn for another 20 years (1990's) that this was not accurate, or at least, did not address many sealings that were done while Joseph was yet alive, in the 1830's and 1840's. At that point I asked my mother about her previous response, and found that she truly did not know the whole story. No deception *there*.

The next experience with this was during my mission, when I was bushwhacked by 4 ministers. They said all sorts of stuff, none of which I listened to. I could tell they were out to 'get' us, and there was no spirit by which to learn. So it all went for nothing.

Next, I was at institute at the University, and every car parked there got a flier on the windshield about Adam-God and Brigham Young. I read it, discussed it with my teacher, who told me much was misinterpreted and the rest was lies. At that time, it was good enough for me, as I was quite busy with life (wife, kids, full-time University, full-time work).

It was after my graduation that I began to research the Church's history. After every item I found that was new to me, I did not feel betrayed; I did not feel lied to; I did not feel 'bad' in any way. Rather, I was excited to hear something new and, many times, something quite unexpected.

First I learned to rely on friends and groups like FARMS to help me understand what was true vs. what was error in what I was hearing or reading. Since I had faithful friends and such, this worked for maybe 6 or 7 years. Also, I had previously experienced "God" several times for myself, including visionary dreams, an influx of 'pure intelligence', and a case where I was physically saved from death by miraculous means. So, honestly, the rest was just details. I knew God lived, and I knew he cared about me. I did not by the same means know the Church was true, but I did enjoy the Church greatly, and 'felt' it was true via 1,000 small evidences.

Then I came to the point of wondering how my friends, and people at FARMS, *REALLY* knew the Church was true, etc. After several months of pondering this, I was driven to reseach FOR MYSELF the claims against the Church. I chose: Adam-God, the changing view of God from 1890 - 1920, Joseph's magic background and polygamy. On each of these, I read everything written I could find, on both sides of the argument. I found that the enemies of the Church often had an 'attitude' that colored all their comments, and most of their thinking, that I just couldn't agree with. It didn't 'feel' right, nor did it match my own personal experience within the Church, and as a Christian.

And while I noticed this on the first issue, what really surprised me was that over and over again, on each issue, I found the exact same thing. These folks had a chip on their shoulder that kept them from being able to see the truth. At that point, I decided that I now knew for myself the methods, techniques and fatal errors in the efforts of the enemies of the Church.

Since then, I have found many refinements in their methods, and have seen that there are honest enemies and deceptive enemies, and so forth. It is not a simple thing. YET, I also found that one man's 'smoking gun' is another man's pure nonsense. Every time I learned, I rejoiced in learning new things that I never knew before. The comments you make, therefore, shock me. I am distressed that you can even begin to feel the way you do. I cannot understand it, and I think you are not in a good place, in your heart. I hope you can somehow learn to rejoice when you find new information regarding the Church and its founders, and have confidence in the truth.

HiJolly

Edited July 1, 2008 by HiJolly
revised to be more kind in my response

[VisionOfLehi]

This reminds me of those few short months ago when I was learning about the Church, researching online... Going off information from South Park.

Anyway, it was all the same to me. This was my thought: "Well, if Moses actually existed then Joseph Smith is just as believable. And if Joseph actually talked with God then a stone in a hat is just as believable." It seems sort of flippant, but it really was and is the same to me. If I was "going to swallow" God, Jesus, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Peter, etc. then Joseph Smith was and is no stretch at all.

One missionary explained once to me, and I'm not sure how accurate* this is, that the hat was used not only to keep others from seeing the plates if they snooped or by accident, but that it also kept the glare from the light off them. (These are metal plates, after all.)

*Not accurate, read next 2 posts

Edited July 1, 2008 by VisionOfLehi

[Hemidakota]

William McLellan [letter written in 1870] who witnessed what you described that Joseph will place his face into the hat to "exclude any light".

[NewYork1975]

but I am trying to learn about it. This is what I have heard in New York. Mormons have more then one wife,When thy die they can become a God and that they are not a true Christian church. I want to know if this is true stuff or not? Please help

[HiJolly]

One missionary explained once to me, and I'm not sure how accurate this is, that the hat was used not only to keep others from seeing the plates if they snooped or by accident, but that it also kept the glare from the light off them. (These are metal plates, after all.)

Hey Vision, it was good to see you last Thursday!

The plates were not in the hat, ever, according to witnesses. In fact, Joseph didn't need the plates at all, once he switched to the seer stone. FYI.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Jolly is correct. The plates were was wrapped in a small linen table cloth and lying on the table in plain site, being closed, while Joseph buried his face into the hat.

.

[VisionOfLehi]

Ah! Thanks!

So was it the seer stone that was in the hat?

[HiJolly]

Ah! Thanks!

So was it the seer stone that was in the hat?

That's right. Turns out that 'South Park' was pretty accurate, after all. (except the "dum, dum, dum" part ).

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Correct Lehi...the current Seer Stone owed by Joseph Smith nows sits in the Church Archives.

[VisionOfLehi]

Yeah, if I thought about that for a moment I would've realized the plates were probably too big to fit in a normal hat, anyway.

Unless Joseph had a massive noggin', lol.

[Vanhin]

but I am trying to learn about it. This is what I have heard in New York. Mormons have more then one wife,When thy die they can become a God and that they are not a true Christian church. I want to know if this is true stuff or not? Please help

Mormons do not practice polygamy any more, although we once did. It is a true principle of our religion. We just are not authorized by God to practice it at this time.

Mormons believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God, and as the children of God, we have the potential to be like him. This mortal life is part of our Heavenly Fathers plan for us, and our progression is made possible because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Mormons claim that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and that it was restored after a long period of apostasy, through the prophet Jospeh Smith. We worship Jesus Christ, as we do his Father, in "spirit and truth", and we try to model our lives after his life. He is our Lord and our Savior, and we are his disciples. I certainly considern myself a Christian.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[MichaelPAGuy]

Why do Trey Parker and Matt Stone(South Park creators) like to make fun of the LDS church?