Eternal Marriage?

[Rekhyt2238]

The church doctrine on eternal marriage is another issue that I have with the LDS Church. Like I have said before, I am very close to leaving the church, for many reasons.

The LDS belief on marriage is, correct me if I am wrong, as follows. If you are married and sealed in the temple then you can be married throughout eternity. For this to happen though, you must make it to the top tier of the Celestial Kingdom. Once you reach said top tier, you and your spouse basically become Gods(This is another issue I have with the church, but if you do not mind I would like to ask one question at a time. So if it is okay, lets talk about it in another thread soon.). Correct?

Matthew 22:23 (My bible is New International Version, so it is worded slightly different.)

23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"

29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

Mark 12:25, and Luke 20:34 basically say the same thing. So looking at this, explain eternal marriage? Jesus specifically says that there will be no marriages after the resurrection and that people will not be given in marriage, which I see as meaning we will not be given to marriage, aka we will not be married. Please help me to understand how eternal marriage is possible? Personally I do not like the thought of not being married in heaven, but that is what Jesus seems to be saying.

[MarginOfError]

You may want to check out the Eternal Marriage Problems?? thread, as it deals with this topic (and a few tangents).

[tubaloth]

If you are married and sealed in the temple then you can be married throughout eternity.

Yes, you are “sealed” for time and all eternity.

For this to happen though, you must make it to the top tier of the Celestial Kingdom.

Its more the other way around. To gain access to the top tier you need to be married in the temple, or have a Celestial Marriage. More you do believe that the Priesthood power of God lasts beyond the grave? Just as Jesus Taught

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19.)

This is the sealing power is it not?

Once you reach said top tier, you and your spouse basically become Gods

Yes you gain all our Father has, if I gain all he has, that would make me just like Him?

Matthew 22:23 (My bible is New International Version, so it is worded slightly different.)

Why did you choose this version of the bible? Who told you that this version was “better” Did God? Who had the authority to make a “better” version?

You have shown one key example of why a prophet (and revelation) is needed for today.

1. Wouldn’t it be nice to have add understanding given from additional revelation (which we do from Section 132)

2. Wouldn’t be nice for a prophet (or apostle) to clarify this teaching. If each person was left to there own view points, we each would take different parts of the scripture and come up with our own conclusion. Those are all nice, but what counts is what God thinks! That’s the key! What does God think about this scripture! How can we figure that out what God thinks! We need to read other words from God’s servants is it not? Really we need relveation!

This is what Elder McConkie taught on it. Its just a basic understand of what the Sadducees believed.

This colloquy between Jesus and his Sadducean detractors does not question or throw doubt, in proper cases, on the eternal verity that the family unit continues in the resurrection. Jesus had previously taught the eternal nature of the marriage union. "What therefore God [not man!] hath joined together, let not man put asunder." That is, when a marriage is performed by God's authority—not man's!—it is eternal. See Matt. 19:1-12. "Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever." (Eccles. 3:14.)

Indeed, almost the whole Jewish nation believed that marriage was eternal, and that parents would beget children in the resurrection. Those few who did not believe that marriage continued after death and among such were the Sadducees, who could not so believe because they denied the resurrection itself—were nonetheless fully aware that such was the prevailing religious view of the people generally. Without doubt Jesus, the apostles, the seventies, and the disciples generally had discussed this doctrine.

The Sadducean effort here is based on the assumption that Jesus and the Jews generally believe in marriage in heaven. They are using this commonly accepted concept to ridicule and belittle the fact of the resurrection itself. They are saying: 'How absurd to believe in a resurrection (and therefore in the fact that there is marriage in heaven) when everybody knows that a woman who has had seven husbands could not have them all at once in the life to come.'

What then is the Master Teacher affirming by saying, "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven"?

He is not denying but limiting the prevailing concept that there will be marrying and giving in marriage in heaven. He is saying that as far as "they" (the Sadducees) are concerned, that as far as "they" ("the children of this world") are concerned, the family unit does not and will not continue in the resurrection. Because he does not choose to cast his pearls before swine, and because the point at issue is not marriage but resurrection anyway, Jesus does not here amplify his teaching to explain that there is marrying and giving of marriage in heaven only for those who live the fulness of gospel law—a requirement which excludes worldly people.

In his reply Jesus is approaching the problem much as he did in revealing the same eternal principles to Joseph Smith in modern times. He first told the Prophet that all blessings come to men as a result of obedience; that all eternal covenants, marriage included, must be performed with his authority and approved by his Spirit; and that only those things continue "after the resurrection" which conform to his law.

See (D. & C. 132:5-17.)

Thus, in the resurrection, the unmarried remain everlastingly as angels or servants, but the married gain exaltation and godhood. This latter group consists of those who enter into that "order of the priesthood" named "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage," and who then keep the terms and conditions of that eternal covenant. (D. & C. 131:1-4.) It consists also of those who lived on earth under circumstances which prevented them from making the covenant for themselves personally, but who would have done so had the opportunity been afforded. For all such, on the just and equitable principles of salvation and exaltation for the dead, the ordinances will be performed vicariously in the temples of God, so that no blessing will ever be denied to any worthy person. And for that matter, there is no revelation, either ancient or modern, which says there is neither marrying nor giving in marriage in heaven itself for righteous people. All that the revelations set forth is that such is denied to the Sadducees and other worldly and ungodly people.

(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 1: 608.)

The big issue you need to figure out is where does Truth come from? More how do find the truth? Is there more Truth then just in the bible? Is it just going to a class and figuring things out, or is there more to it then that! You have heard a lot of people “preach” to you. I feel you want to believe it more, because they are your friends. But how did they find out this was the truth teaching of God?

In your search for truth keep in mind the big three questions that the LDS church answers.

1. Where did I come from?

2. Why am I here.

3. Where do we go after this life. (what is the point of this all?)

I would be interesting is your views at this point. Either start another thread, or just send me a message.

Edited July 5, 2008 by tubaloth

[Rekhyt2238]

More you do believe that the Priesthood power of God lasts beyond the grave?

Of God, yes. Whether the priesthood in the LDS Church is God's, I do not know.

Why did you choose this version of the bible? Who told you that this version was “better” Did God? Who had the authority to make a “better” version?

Did I ever say it was better? No. To tell you the truth, it was a gift. I then found that I liked it better, simply because the wording is slightly more modern. If the Bible had been written during the current time period, would it still be written as it was? No! It would be written using our modern language! So why we are clinging to the King James Version, I do not understand. Who had the authority to make a better version? God of course. You believe that God helped Joseph Smith translate the BoM. Is it not equally possible that God helped someone else to create the New International Version?

You have shown one key example of why a prophet (and revelation) is needed for today.

1. Wouldn’t it be nice to have add understanding given from additional revelation (which we do from Section 132)

2. Wouldn’t be nice for a prophet (or apostle) to clarify this teaching. If each person was left to there own view points, we each would take different parts of the scripture and come up with our own conclusion. Those are all nice, but what counts is what God thinks! That’s the key! What does God think about this scripture! How can we figure that out what God thinks! We need to read other words from God’s servants is it not? Really we need relveation!

This is one thing that I also do not understand. Yes, of course it would be nice to have someone that is in direct contact with God. But what makes the LDS Prophet special? The Catholics have the Pope?

[MrNirom]

This is one thing that I also do not understand. Yes, of course it would be nice to have someone that is in direct contact with God. But what makes the LDS Prophet special? The Catholics have the Pope?

I don't believe that any of us here are going to be able to give you a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That is something that you must do on your own.

This whole religion is based on the fact the Joseph had a vision.. and he translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.

If you do not have this as your core belief.. then nothing else of the church will be believable to you either.

I would start there. For me.. I got a testimony that the Book of Mormon was true.. then it made Joseph a prophet.. I could not deny it for I could not have the one without the other.

Our answers will never convince you.. Only an answer from the Lord by the Holy Ghost will satisfy your questions.

[Rekhyt2238]

I don't believe that any of us here are going to be able to give you a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That is something that you must do on your own.

This whole religion is based on the fact the Joseph had a vision.. and he translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.

If you do not have this as your core belief.. then nothing else of the church will be believable to you either.

I would start there. For me.. I got a testimony that the Book of Mormon was true.. then it made Joseph a prophet.. I could not deny it for I could not have the one without the other.

Our answers will never convince you.. Only an answer from the Lord by the Holy Ghost will satisfy your questions.

I did not come here to receive a testimony. I did not expect a miracle from this site. I came here to have a few questions answered, that I believe may have an effect on whether I stay in this church or not.

[MrNirom]

I did not come here to receive a testimony. I did not expect a miracle from this site. I came here to have a few questions answered, that I believe may have an effect on whether I stay in this church or not.

I don't understand. What could possibly keep you in a church if you don't believe it?

[Islander]

Rekhyt2238, my friend - You keep asking questions, and many, in a vacuum which demonstrate that you have only but a rudimentary grasp on the Gospel and second that you have not taken the time to study these issues in detail.

There are dozens of sources for you to research and find explanation for your questions. I know that chatting back and forth is more dynamic, gives you an audience to vent and provides seemingly a more responsive exchange. Also, if you do not get the explanation you seek it gives you an opportunity to publicly point to the shortcomings of the doctrine and our position.

There are specific reasons why we use the KJV. You can research that on your own.

I replied to you on a different thread but I'll reiterate it here. You have greater issues than your questions. Those are just symptoms of greater underlying conflict. Until and unless you address those we can not be of much help. I am sorry.

You face a dilemma and it relates in part to

1. whether Joseph saw the Father and the Son or not.

2. was he called to be a prophet or not.

3. whether he received a book of ancient scriptures and translated it or not

4. whether the priesthood was restored to him and Oliver Cowdery

5. whether the priesthood keys were restored and remain on the earth today

You must answer those questions first. The rest will fall in line, or not. My friend, your membership in the Church cannot hinge on what responses you get from a forum. Your testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Restoration MUST be rooted on the certainty brought to you by the Holy Ghost as the veracity of what we as witnesses testify to you. You must study and then pray and ponder it in your heart. Your testimony must be of God and not of men.

[bytor2112]

[b

Rekhyt2238

Sounds to me like you have already left the church or were never there to begin with. The best place to have these questions answered are at church. But you seem to have your own formula for figuring things out. The scriptures that you quoted are very often used by Anti-LDS websites and other religious organizations to challenge members of the church or witness to them and show them the light. I am not saying that you are getting your information from there, but if you are hanging out with the Baptists, they do not consider the LDS church to be a Christian church. The SBC has labeled us a cult and have said that" just like the Muslim or Jews, the LDS will go to hell if they are not saved." I am a convert to the LDS faith as is my wife. We were both Baptists. I wasn't active or living any sort of real Christian life, but I was "saved". :DThe Baptist church that my wife attended held classes on how to witness to a Mormon and showed the youth group the anti LDS film, The Godmakers, which is full of lies and distortions and proven to be so.

Obviously, Baptists and other Christian denominations interpret the scriptures differently and disagree with LDS doctrine. We believe that there is more to the story than what is contained in the Bible. I can remember showing this same verse and lots of others to my best friend who was LDS. When I finally stopped arguing with him and listened, not with my ears, but with my spiritual ears, everything began to change. Most Baptists come to Christ after being showed a few scriptures, like John 3:16 and different verses making it apparant that if you don't accept Christ as your personal Savior, you will go to hell.

If you are really seeking the truth and really want answers, before you completely abandon the church, try this. Attend church every Sunday, all three hours. Meet your Bishop in his office and tell him about your struggles with the church- be honest with him.

Ask him your questions, ask your Ward missionaries, go to Gospel Principles and ask questions. Find out who you should be Home teaching and go. Pray at least twice a day on bended knee, be specific about what you want to know. Read the Scriptures daily.(our scriptures). If possible go out with the missionaries when they have a teaching appointment. Really sell out to the Church for 90 days. If you do this and you will if you REALLY are seeking to know if the church is true, you will know without a doubt if the Church is what it claims to be or not. When you seek the Lord and truth, you have to really seek the Lord. He knows if you are luke warm or not.

If you are not willing to do those things, you probably will continue on your journey toward the exit sign. After all we are just dupes and rubes here. Wolves in sheeps clothing. Once you finally become a Baptist or join some other denomination that claims there authority from the Bible or some other creed, or follow some friends to other churches that they haven't researched nearly as much as they have researched how wrong the LDS church is, you will be able to be an authority on our faith as well. After all the best place to learn about the LDS faith is definitely listening to some others who got there information from some web site or some classs on " those bad mormons". Have you asked your friends how they researched their Church and it's beliefs? Good luck!!

Edited July 5, 2008 by bytor2112

[Rekhyt2238]

Everyone seems to be thinking that my "bad baptist friends" are leading me astray on purpose. They are not. I think only one of my friends goes to an actual denominational church, and she is not the baptist. The rest of my friends go to nondenominational Christian churches. Like I said in another topic, most of my friends were practically clueless about the LDS church. That is until a few of the bible studies, where we talked about the LDS Church a lot.

Islander, i am trying to get those questions answered. I really am.

[Justice]

The short answer is that only marriage through proper authority can yield eternal results. Only one who God authorizes can seal for time and eternity. All other marriages are "till death do you part."

When Christ said there is no giving in marriage in heaven He meant it is an earthly ordinance, like all ordinances, and must be done here. It does not mean people will not be married, just that marriages won't take place there. They would have already had to take place here. That's why we perform them by proxy for those who did not have the chance.

My best advice for you is to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. The marriage issue is really a basic part of Church belief. You must know the Book of Mormon is true before you can believe the rest.

[tubaloth]

Of God, yes. Whether the priesthood in the LDS Church is God's, I do not know.

So that then leads to the next question, how does one get the priesthood of God?

We do agree.

1. That there is such a thing.

2. That is has power to bind on earth and heaven!

So the next important question in our search for truth (sense that is why you are here). Who has this priesthood, and how does one get it?

If the Bible had been written during the current time period, would it still be written as it was? No!

It would be written the way God wants it to be written. If that is in some old English style so be it.

Who had the authority to make a better version? God of course. You believe that God helped Joseph Smith translate the BoM. Is it not equally possible that God helped someone else to create the New International Version?

That is what I’m trying to claim here. We believe Joseph Smith had the Power to Translate. I think that would be something important to have when you are dealing with God’s holy word. I would hope anybody else that claims to “translate” a book such as the bible, that they would have some type of authority to do so.

I could come up with my own “version” of the bible. Does that mean I should?

Yes, of course it would be nice to have someone that is in direct contact with God. But what makes the LDS Prophet special? The Catholics have the Pope?

It would be more then just a nice thing!

I’m not trying to point out who is right and who is wrong (at least not completely) what I’m trying to do is see if you think this is something that is important in an Religion! In the Kingdom of God.

When has there been a time that God had a people on the earth and Not have a prophet?

Does the church you follow (or want to follow) follow this pattern?

I do have to agree, I think a prophet is a major important thing to have in a True Religion! So doesn’t that leave just two religions that can be true? Either Catholics are right, have had the priesthood sense Christ, and had Revelation (even though I don’t think they claim revelation do they)?

If they break off of the Catholic church then they are going against the priesthood and God right?

Or the Priesthood was lost, needed to be restored. Peter James and John came back and restored it.

It really comes down to these two! Assuming having a prophet is what God wants in a True Church?

Have you read the book of mormon from Cover to cover? When was the last time. I challenge you, before you completely give up the LDS church, to start from the coverage page to read until the end of the Book of Mormon. What have you to loose?

[Rekhyt2238]

(even though I don’t think they claim revelation do they)?

Have you read the book of mormon from Cover to cover? When was the last time. I challenge you, before you completely give up the LDS church, to start from the coverage page to read until the end of the Book of Mormon. What have you to loose?

About Catholics and revelation, I think they do. They believe in Papal infallibility, which leads me to believe that they think the Pope is in direct contact with God. If they did not think that, why would they believe the pope is never wrong?...What would make his opinion better than anyone else's?

On reading the BoM, I think I have already promised to do so before I leave. Honestly I have nothing to loose, which is why I'm so willing to try....Though at this very moment, I think I am going to concentrate on the Bible which I know is true.

[skalenfehl]

Consider the conversion and testimonies of Enos (Enos 1), Alma (Alma 5), and Cornelius (Acts 10). Read about Cornelius in the Bible first and then Alma's and Enos' in the Book of Mormon. There are more such experiences in the scriptures but these will give you an understanding of the process of finding the answers you seek and the similar experiences of these men, and their sincerity and intent. Read Alma 32 for extra credit.

[Islander]

About Catholics and revelation, I think they do. They believe in Papal infallibility, which leads me to believe that they think the Pope is in direct contact with God. If they did not think that, why would they believe the pope is never wrong?...What would make his opinion better than anyone else's?

On reading the BoM, I think I have already promised to do so before I leave. Honestly I have nothing to loose, which is why I'm so willing to try....Though at this very moment, I think I am going to concentrate on the Bible which I know is true.

Tacit acceptance of the bible is absolutely necessary for everyone who professes Judeo-Christian beliefs. Most people just accept the bible at face value rather than inquire and seek revelation of the Lord. It is sort of a default mode. What is all means and the interpretation one gives to the bible depends on what brand of Christianity one subscribes to. Your struggles with the church will not be solved by reading the bible. That will not get you any closer to resolving the issues that brought you here.

Friend, at this point I am unsure of what it is you need specifically since your responses only allude to how you feel rather than what is happening in your life. It is obvious there is a lot of pain, sense of rejection, abandonment and isolation in your posts but little else about what caused it and how things got to be this way. The suggestions and counsel offer in the posts you have rejected in general claiming that you "have been there, done that" so I am uncertain of what else I can do yo help you without further insight.

If you could offer some additional information about your current situation it would provide further elements and perhaps a way to shed some light into your situation and insight into your circumstances. I could reply to you in a PM if you desire some privacy.

[Rekhyt2238]

Islander, if you wish to talk of more personal issues, then yes please do PM me. Thank you.

[JonboySquarepants]

When Christ said there is no giving in marriage in heaven He meant it is an earthly ordinance, like all ordinances, and must be done here. It does not mean people will not be married, just that marriages won't take place there. They would have already had to take place here. That's why we perform them by proxy for those who did not have the chance.

lds perform marriages for people who are dead? how do you marry people who are dead?

Edited July 7, 2008 by JonboySquarepants

[john doe]

By proxy.

[JonboySquarepants]

By proxy.

how does that work? does the church just pick a male and female randomly and marry them? i don't think i've ever heard this before. i've heard that marriages will be done during the millenium, but now this. it's interesting.

[Rekhyt2238]

how does that work? does the church just pick a male and female randomly and marry them? i don't think i've ever heard this before. i've heard that marriages will be done during the millenium, but now this. it's interesting.

The way I understand that, is that when they marry someone who is dead, they do not marry them to a specific person. So when this has been done for both people, they are then married...That could be completely wrong, but it is what I have been led to believe.

[Jenamarie]

Those who were married in life, but not Sealed in the Temple, can be Sealed by Proxy in the Temple (Sealing is different from marriage. Marrige is an earthly ordiance, Sealings carry over into the Eternities).

I have never heard of any unmarried deceased people being "married" to someone in the Temple.

[goofball]

Rekhyt2238- I have been trying to follow the thread to see if your question has been answered. It seems it became quite jumbled because I came in on the middle of all this. I am willing to give it a shot if you feel like your question has been answered.

Personally I feel like someone needs to develop a testimony of our Father and His Son. After that a key for belief in the restored gospel is finding out for yourself if Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God. Do that and then you can find better understand the meat of the Gospel and not just the milk. That is my 2 cents on this thread

[Jenamarie]

Personally I feel like someone needs to develop a testimony of our Father and His Son. After that a key for belief in the restored gospel is finding out for yourself if Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God. Do that and then you can find better understand the meat of the Gospel and not just the milk. That is my 2 cents on this thread

I've been thinking about this, and I think this is a great idea. I'm also currently in search of a strong Testimony of the church, and I have to say that reading Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage helped me enormously. It's a bit of a long read, but it really spells out exactly how the LDS faith defines Christ. Who, What, and Why He is, according to LDS interpretation of scripture. It has a lot of helpful insights into the scriptures as well. Might be something to look into. :)

[tubaloth]

What would make his opinion better than anyone else's?

Because gaining revelation is more then just somebodies opinion.

On reading the BoM, I think I have already promised to do so before I leave.

That is super! Have you started it already?

Though at this very moment, I think I am going to concentrate on the Bible which I know is true.

Based off of what? You know the bible is true because? (I'm going to assume because of reading it? So wouldn't that mean, to find out if the book of mormon is true, time is going to have to be spent with it?)

Edited July 7, 2008 by tubaloth

[tubaloth]

how does that work? does the church just pick a male and female randomly and marry them? i don't think i've ever heard this before. i've heard that marriages will be done during the millenium, but now this. it's interesting.

Really its done for our ancestors. We know two people were married on this earth. A sealing is then preformed for and in half of the person that is dead. (and any children are sealed together) It can be random people (any girl and any guy as long as they have been through the temple can do sealing’s). But usually its couples.