The Challenge The Book Of Mormon

[Winnie G]

The Challenge the Book of Mormon

Makes to the World

To produce a similar record under similar circumstances, the following conditions would have to be complied with:

Write a history of ancient people covering a period from 2200 B.C. to 400 A.D.

Include the history of two distinct, separate nations along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.

Describe their religious, economic, social and political cultures and institutions.

Weave into their history the story of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian religion.

Consider yourself 23 years of age and without formal school education.

Write this record on about 520 pages, with 500 words per page.

You must never make any absurd, impossible or contradiction statements.

You must finish this record within 90 days and make no changes in the text. The first edition must last forever.

You must proclaim that this narrative is not fiction but true sacred history.

You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, to expose any flaws.

You must write this history on the basis of what you now know.

You must publish it in every nation, to every kindred, tongue and people, declaring it to be the word of God.

You must include within the record a marvelous and unique promise; a way to prove the truthfulness of the book. (Moroni 10:4)

This record must fulfill bible prophecies; even to the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom it shall be given and its purpose and accomplishments.

Your descriptions of the cultures of these peoples are not known when you bring forth the record.

Many of the facts, ideas and statements given as true in you record must be entirely inconsistent and in direct opposition to the prevailing beliefs of the world.

Through investigation, scientific evidence and archeological discoveries for the next 150 years must verify its claims and prove its truthfulness even to the most minute detail.

After 150 years of extensive analysis, no claim or statement in the book is disproven, but all are vindicated. All theories and ideas opposing it's origin rise only to fall, leaving your own claim as the only possible or plausible one.

Internal and external evidence and prophecies must be confirmed and fulfilled during the next 150 years.

Fair, honest and credible witness must testify to the whole world that an angel from heaven appeared to them and showed them the records. That they handled the records and felt the engravings thereon.

You must cause the voice of the Redeemer to call out from Heaven to declare to these men that the record is true and for them to declare its truthfulness and message to the world, and cause these witnesses to do it.

They must bear this testimony, not for personal gain, but at great personal sacrifice and though persecution, even to death.

Thousands of great scholars and intellectuals must subscribe discipleship to this record and its movements even to the point of laying down their lives.

Many other thousands must bear testimony that it is true because they have put the promise to the test and received a testimony to its truthfulness. (Moroni 10:4).

After 20 years of revilement and persecution, you must then be ready to give your own life as a testimony that the record is divine and true, and that its message of truth is from God.

[Guest bat]

A New and Improved Book of Mormon Challenge

06/27/2003 - tanstaafl

1. Write a history of ancient America covering a period of from 2200 B.C.E.

to 400 A.D.? Why ancient America? Because that's what the Book of Mormon

claims to be about silly.

2. You must start telling tales that resemble this book to your family at

least ten years before you write it.

3. You must be primarily self-educated. If you are formally educated, it may

or may not make it more difficult to write, that will obviously depend on

your individual "education," but don't worry about learning how to spell,

since . . .

4. You must include at least 3000 grammatical and spelling errors, even if

you use a secretary to transcribe your dictation. Now this is going to be

really hard, because where are you going to find such an ignorant secretary.

Good luck on that one.

5. Your "history" must be 531 pages long, and must use the phrase "and it

came to pass" 3,856 times.

6. You must come up with a good explanation as to why filler such as "and it

came to pass" would be so frequently repeated if your history is supposed to

have come from gold plates where space was at a premium.

7. Once your book is published you are only allowed to change it 3500 times

for grammatical and spelling errors and 500 times for doctrinal, historical

or other substantive inconsistencies.

8. Your "history" must replace the actual millions of inhabitants of the

ancient Americas during this time period with fictitious nations, including

one nation founded by refugees from the mythical tower of Babylon who came

to the Americas on a giant barrel-like barge with holes in the top and the

bottom (don't ask) of the barge and two other nations founded by "jews" who

know next to nothing about Jewish dietary or religious practices.

9. You must describe the inhabitants of America and their religious,

economic, political and social and cultural institutions in such way that

they don't in any way represent the religious, political, social and

cultural institutions of the actual inhabitants of ancient America. Even

make up some names of coins that were never used by the actual inhabitants

of America. Throw in some animals and crops that are only in the Americas

post-Columbus and make up some funny names of non-existent animals too, like

cureloms.

10. Make sure you plagiarize from more than one section of the bible, and

from various other sources, so that your claim that many ancient authors

contributed to the book can be trumpeted by apologists.

11. Make up a story about a dead guy coming to America and killing millions

of inhabitants and burying cities in the ocean and under the earth. Call him

Nosferatu or Lestat. No just kidding -- you must actually call him Jesus.

12. Claim that your inconsistent and grammatically awkward prose (except for

the plagiarized parts which are somewhat better written) is not fiction, but

a true and sacred history.

13. Include in your book 54 chapters dealing with wars that bear no

resemblance to the actual wars that took place in the ancient Americas. Make

sure that at least some of these wars include the nonsensical accounts of

million man armies. Ignore the problems associated with the logistical

support for such a large army. Also include million men armies fighting to

the last man and their bones and steel weapons disappearing from the face of

the earth. Include 21 historical chapters which bear no resemblance to

actual history, try and include some inconsistencies here too, like people

reappearing in the narrative after they have already died.

14. You must include 55 chapters on visions and prophesies. At least one of

the "visions" must be an almost verbatim recital of a dream that some member

of your family, preferably your father, told to you as a boy. Some of the

prophesies must be plagiarized directly from the bible, but others must

"prophesy" about things that have already happened between the time of the

supposed prophesy and the present, so that you can show how accurate the

"prophecies" of your book are. Except for the "prophecies" about events that

have already taken place, which must be laden with details, all prophecies

should be very vague. Never do anything stupid like prophesy that Christ

will come in 1891, the civil war would start in the 1830's or that people

live on the moon and dress like Quakers, that would be quite a problem for

you.

15. Included in your narrative will be bogus modes of travel that were never

used in ancient America, bogus descriptions of clothing and clothing

materials that were never used in ancient America, bogus descriptions of

crops that never existed in ancient America and bogus types of government as

well. As Spiccoli from "Fast Times At Ridgemenot High" might add at this

point -- that's a lot of bogosity dude.

16. You must invent 280 names. Well, not really invent, you can take some

from the bible, some from the apocrypha, some from maps, etc. Some should be

inside jokes (Moron, Ether), some should be silly (anti-nephi-lehite,

curelom), some should so forgettable that you refer to them obliquely

(brother of jared) and some should come from the occult practices you were

taught by your parents (Laman).

17. Every objective scholar who looks at your work and examines its claims

to be a history of the ancient Americas must denounce it as a fraud. (OK,

this one was easy, but you deserve a break after so many hard ones in a

row.)

18. Claim that your book is the word of God. Then start a religion with

doctrines contrary to the book. (Don't worry, this is actually much easier

than it sounds.)

19. Throw in all kinds of absurd, impossible and contradictory statements.

(If you need help with this see Ether 15:31, Mosiah 21:28 and 2 Nephi 19:1

for some examples to get you started.)

20. No one but you or the members of the religion you founded must believe

your claims that the book is of divine origin. To cover for the fact that

you cannot produce the gold plates, make up a story about the gold plates

upon which the record came being "taken up into heaven" and get 11 people

who are related to you and/or with a financial interest in your book to say

that they saw the plates before they disapperared. Make sure that you refer

to the dead guy that takes the plates back "to heaven" by at least two

different names.

21. Get four dishonest and shifty characters to claim that they too had an

magical dead guy come down from "heaven" to "testify" to them about your

book. Each of these witnesses must have a financial stake in the book.

22. Make sure that something in your book fulfills some vague biblical

prophesy. (And yes, I know vague and biblical prophesy are redundant and

repetitive.)

23. Thousands of men with a vested financial interest in the religion you

founded, including many who are criminals and who lie under oath to

congress, must accept your book (and your teachings that contradict the

book) for over 100 years. In fact, you must make sure that every man who

leads your church for the first 100 years must be a criminal. Make sure that

you commit every one of the following crimes: treason, sedition, murder,

perjury, conspiracy to commit murder, bigamy, statutory rape, fraud,

conterfeiting, illegal banking, assault, and bribery. Send some of your

followers on missions and have sex with their wives while they are away too.

Make sure that every man that leads your church for the next 100 years

commits at least 3 of the above crimes.

24. Since your book is filled with inconsistencies which easily demonstrate

it as fraudulent, you must include an appeal to magical thinking at the end

of the book, or no one will follow you.

25. You've got to then get a bunch of believers in your fraudulent history

to, a few of them glady, but most of them under some form of coercion, give

up two years of their life to con others into beleiving your bogus history.

Have sex with some of their wives while they are away. Call this sex

"celestial marriage."

26. Some of these salesmen must even pay their own way. Now some of them

will, over the course of these two years, come to the realization that your

book is a fraud, but over half of them must stay in your church.

27. You must derive your financial riches from the book and the religion

which you found upon its teachings (and no we must not forget about the

doctrines that contradict the teachings of the book). Despite making several

fortunes over the course of your life by conning the believers of your book

out of their hard earned money, you will waste it all and flee at least two

states due to your financial improprieties and declare bankruptcy at least

once. And along the same financial vein, you must also steal money from your

foster daughters. And while you're at it, have sex with some of them too.

28. When your financial cons and sexual scandals cause problems for your

family and followers, you must blame everything on religious persecution and

leave town. You must ingraine this into your followers so that they carry

this false persecution complex with them unto the third and the fourth

generations. You must teach all the leaders of your movement to have sex

with the wives and the daughters of those with lower callings in your

church. You must have sex with 14 year old girls and cause that any follower

of yours that does not want to have sex with 14 year old girls to be removed

from any leadership position in your church. (Yes David Koresh did this too,

but he never wrote a book and he's not about to write one now is he?)

29. Your book must result in a people whose unlawful practices will be

referred to as barbaric by both the Congress and the Supreme Court of the

United States of America.. (If you live somewhere other than the US, similar

organizations of the country where you live will suffice) You must include

in your religion covenants that require your people to blindly obey orders

to murder non-members of your cult. Your book must result in a people that

will kill and steal from any who dare visit territory controlled by your

followers. Your people must murder at least 20 children in cold blood.

30. Start right now, and spend a year writing the first draft of this book.

Then complete the second draft in three months, BUT YOUR SECOND DRAFT MUST

BE WRITTEN WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE FIRST DRAFT. Before starting on the

second draft, you must let the only copy of the first draft go to someone

who does not believe you saw god, or that you saw any dead guys, or that

dead guys gave you any gold plates. Then come up with a good explanation as

to why, since the plates were supposedly translated by the power of god, god

didn't just help you write the same words over again.

31. Then have someone who is in the pay of the religion you founded for over

50 years write an nonsensical challenge filled with invalid and dishonest

assumptions and flawed reasoning. Then have someone born more than one

hundred years after you die waste almost two hours writing a stupid parody

of that challenge.

[Guest antishock82003]

I don't think I could do either one.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Jan 28 2004, 01:57 PM

The Challenge the Book of Mormon

Makes to the World

To produce a similar record under similar circumstances, the following conditions would have to be complied with:

Write a history of ancient people covering a period from 2200 B.C. to 400 A.D.

Include the history of two distinct, separate nations along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.

Describe their religious, economic, social and political cultures and institutions.

Weave into their history the story of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian religion.

Consider yourself 23 years of age and without formal school education.

Write this record on about 520 pages, with 500 words per page.

You must never make any absurd, impossible or contradiction statements.

You must finish this record within 90 days and make no changes in the text. The first edition must last forever.

You must proclaim that this narrative is not fiction but true sacred history.

You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, to expose any flaws.

You must write this history on the basis of what you now know.

You must publish it in every nation, to every kindred, tongue and people, declaring it to be the word of God.

You must include within the record a marvelous and unique promise; a way to prove the truthfulness of the book. (Moroni 10:4)

This record must fulfill bible prophecies; even to the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom it shall be given and its purpose and accomplishments.

Your descriptions of the cultures of these peoples are not known when you bring forth the record.

Many of the facts, ideas and statements given as true in you record must be entirely inconsistent and in direct opposition to the prevailing beliefs of the world.

Through investigation, scientific evidence and archeological discoveries for the next 150 years must verify its claims and prove its truthfulness even to the most minute detail.

After 150 years of extensive analysis, no claim or statement in the book is disproven, but all are vindicated. All theories and ideas opposing it's origin rise only to fall, leaving your own claim as the only possible or plausible one.

Internal and external evidence and prophecies must be confirmed and fulfilled during the next 150 years.

Fair, honest and credible witness must testify to the whole world that an angel from heaven appeared to them and showed them the records. That they handled the records and felt the engravings thereon.

You must cause the voice of the Redeemer to call out from Heaven to declare to these men that the record is true and for them to declare its truthfulness and message to the world, and cause these witnesses to do it.

They must bear this testimony, not for personal gain, but at great personal sacrifice and though persecution, even to death.

Thousands of great scholars and intellectuals must subscribe discipleship to this record and its movements even to the point of laying down their lives.

Many other thousands must bear testimony that it is true because they have put the promise to the test and received a testimony to its truthfulness. (Moroni 10:4).

After 20 years of revilement and persecution, you must then be ready to give your own life as a testimony that the record is divine and true, and that its message of truth is from God.

Sorry Winney, but this one doesn't fly as far as my research has taken me. To start, give me one solid piece of evidence that Hebrews were the primary ancestors of the Native Americans of North or South America.

Several other postulates of yours are also questionable.

[Guest antishock82003]

Actually, prove to me that JS did all those things. Please. Lay it out. You made the assertions. Now back it up.

[Guest curvette]

Did you write these criteria Winnie, or did someone else? (I can't tell from your post.)

[Paul Osborne]

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 28 2004, 07:48 PM

Did you write these criteria Winnie, or did someone else? (I can't tell from your post.)

I'm pretty sure that Huge Nibbler wrote that.

[Jenda]

It is something that has been going around the e-mail circuit for a few years. I don't know who wrote it, but I have gotten it periodically from all my RLDS friends. I kind of thought that maybe it was written by someone from the RLDS church.

Isn't it funny how our biases tell a lot about who we are?

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 28 2004, 09:03 PM

It is something that has been going around the e-mail circuit for a few years. I don't know who wrote it, but I have gotten it periodically from all my RLDS friends. I kind of thought that maybe it was written by someone from the RLDS church.

Isn't it funny how our biases tell a lot about who we are?

Yep, it was Nibbler. You can read about it here.

[Snow]

Wrong.

It wasn't Hugh Nibley; and while guys like There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch do nothing but make fun and criticize, no one has ever accepted the challenge (or any of the other rip offs like it), much less pulled it off.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 28 2004, 09:39 PM

Wrong.

It wasn't Hugh Nibley; and while guys like There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch do nothing but make fun and criticize, no one has ever accepted the challenge (or any of the other rip offs like it), much less pulled it off.

Could a similar "challenge" be made for the Koran?

[Snow]

Not hardly. The Koran does not profess to be a book written about an unknown civilation from 1500 years prior, restored to mankind after being hidden.

It is a religious, social, civil commerical and legal code authored by a known historical figure, captured by "reciters" and scribes and then collected and organized by Mohammed's next 3 successors, the caliphs.

Different deal.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 28 2004, 11:40 PM

Not hardly. The Koran does not profess to be a book written about an unknown civilation from 1500 years prior, restored to mankind after being hidden.

It is a religious, social, civil commerical and legal code authored by a known historical figure, captured by "reciters" and scribes and then collected and organized by Mohammed's next 3 successors, the caliphs.

Different deal.

The Koran is not a fictional novel written about people that never existed and therefore a similar challenge cannot be written in support of it?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 28 2004, 09:39 PM

Wrong.

It wasn't Hugh Nibley; and while guys like There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch do nothing but make fun and criticize, no one has ever accepted the challenge (or any of the other rip offs like it), much less pulled it off.

That's because the challenge is fradulent. Prove to me that JS did what the challenge did, within the given time frame. The most you can do is dredge up some quotes and inferences saying he did what he did. I'll dredge up my anti-quotes and anti-inferences...and then we'll be back at square one...you believing that the BoM was produced miraculously and me believing it was produced over a much longer period of time not miraculously.

But. Since WINNIE is making the assertion I believe the burden of proof rests with her. Unless of course you'd like to give it go, Snow.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

The thing that confuses me is this. If the BoM is a fiction, why didn't Joseph Smith find some more clearly stated prophesies in the Old Testament to back up his stories. Most of the stuff I read in the Old Testament that the footnotes claim to be prophetic statements about the BoM or Joseph Smith's life are so vague that they really prove nothing.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Does anyone know of an Old Testament scripture that very clearly predicts events from the BoM, the Restoration, or even the events of the New Testament?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I guess that wouldn't prove much anyway, because the events of the New Testament and BoM could easily have been written to fullfill Old Testament prophecies.

But I am still curious to see what the connections are.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

If I was Joseph Smith, I would have shown this scripture to everyone as "proof" for the Restoration.

Isaiah 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Coincidence or prophecy???

[Snow]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 29 2004, 03:55 AM

That's because the challenge is fradulent. Prove to me that JS did what the challenge did, within the given time frame. The most you can do is dredge up some quotes and inferences saying he did what he did. I'll dredge up my anti-quotes and anti-inferences...and then we'll be back at square one...you believing that the BoM was produced miraculously and me believing it was produced over a much longer period of time not miraculously.

But. Since WINNIE is making the assertion I believe the burden of proof rests with her. Unless of course you'd like to give it go, Snow.

Granted, this particular version of the challenge was written by someone not terribly educated on the subject but the fact remains that for all their protestations, no one else has ever done anything like it, least not for a few millenia.

Here are the relevant bits I think:

-Consider yourself 23 years of age and without formal school education.

-Write this record on about 520 pages, with 500 words per page.

-You must finish this record within 90 days.

-It should launch or help launch a major new world religion.

-Thousands of scholars and intellectuals, and regular even joes must subscribe discipleship to this record and its movements even to the point of laying down their lives.

I don't have to prove that JS did what he did within the given time frame. What is did, is already known. We both have copies of it. The details, that exist, about how he did it and in what time frame, are available. It could be that I don't know the details as well as you but I think you're bluffing. I don't think that you can provide and "anti" material that effectively disputes the general story. At best you will be able to produce some speculation and inference. If that's the case don't bother - I've already read it. Since all it is, is speculation, we have better than that to support the traditional story.

On the other hand, if you can get Winnie to go toe to toe with you, I pay to watch that.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 29 2004, 07:10 PM

-Consider yourself 23 years of age and without formal school education.

I really want to take this challenge, but this part disqualifies me from participating.

[Cal]

Einstein came up with Special and General Relativity, as well as explaining the Photo-electric effect, which qualified him for a Nobel Prize at around the same age. So, that takes care of the age part.

As far as a gift for story telling----it is not unprecedented in history. You don't need a Ph. D. in anything to tell a great story, just a vivid imagination.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 29 2004, 07:21 PM

Einstein came up with Special and General Relativity, as well as explaining the Photo-electric effect, which qualified him for a Nobel Prize at around the same age. So, that takes care of the age part.

Sure, if you consider proposing a scientific insight to be roughly analogous to launching or helping to launch a major new world religion where thousands of scholars and intellectuals, and regular even joes must subscribe discipleship to this record and its movements even to the point of laying down their lives.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

The closest thing I can think of is Tolkein.

After all, he wrote about a fictional civilization that existed at some unspecified time in Europe somewhere, and there is no archaeological or historical evidence to prove it is true.

If he was 23 and uneducated, and if he had started a religion, and TOLD everybody that he wrote LOTR and the Silmarillion in 90 days, and sacrificed his life to defend it's "truth"...then I guess he would qualify.

[Cal]

Snow--Einstein revolutionized scientific thinking. He provided the basis for the development of techologies like Television, the atomic bomb, nuclear energy, as well as a whole new view of the basic nature of the universe. The ripple effect of his work has arguable been every bit as impressive as the development of a new religion. In the long run, probably greater.