Guest curvette Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Feb 17 2004, 02:30 PM Right now, my belief in the Church's teachings about its history and the source of its authority is essentially no more than a conscious decision to suspend disbelief and my usual means of evaluating evidence. Not only does that seem tenuous, and makes it hard to maintain enthusiasm for fulfilling the Church's heavy demands on my time and resources, it strikes me that this kind of belief can't be the right kind -- because the credit would all go to me. In other words, I owe my belief in the Church not to divine grace, but to my own will. And that seems a lot like relying on the arm of flesh, which is generally thought to be a bad thing in religious contexts. On the other hand, I do believe that my belief in God's existence and Christ's redemption of man is based on something more than just a choice to believe. I do believe that something beyond my natural senses is tryiing to tell me something, no matter how faintly. Man I love this guy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elinz Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 You might be too close to it. I'm not of the church originally. Most of my life has been spent in secular society without any religious connections. My family never went to church. I'm impressed by the BoM because it does describe some deep and subtle traits that people fall into. Forget the factual stuff, that is of small importance. The reality of life is that people will inevitably find ways to hurt themselves by not paying attention to things that should be obvious. It's human nature to be dumb. Think of a teenager, the drive to create a separate identity is much stronger than truth itself. Reasoning to a teenager is pointless. Hormones dominate all their thoughts. That condition opens the door for a cruel and "wise to the world' person to swoop down and exploit them. Open your eyes to the messed up world we have in the cities and even the suburbs. Lots of the kids now are so confused they don't really even know what sex they are anymore. The BoM is a great tale of the price of sin... DEATH! America is all messed up. Until you see the truth before your eyes the story will be just a story. It's only the wise that can understand. Being older helps. There's no way I would have understood the deeper meaning when I was in my 20's or 30's. You need to learn what evil and hell really is. (I know where you could go ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behunin Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by elinz@Feb 17 2004, 03:52 PM You might be too close to it.I'm not of the church originally. Most of my life has beenspent in secular society without any religious connections.My family never went to church.I'm impressed by the BoM because it does describe somedeep and subtle traits that people fall into.Forget the factual stuff, that is of small importance.The reality of life is that people will inevitably find waysto hurt themselves by not paying attention to things thatshould be obvious.It's human nature to be dumb.Think of a teenager, the drive to create a separateidentity is much stronger than truth itself. Reasoningto a teenager is pointless. Hormones dominate alltheir thoughts. That condition opens the door fora cruel and "wise to the world' person to swoop downand exploit them.Open your eyes to the messed up world we have inthe cities and even the suburbs. Lots of the kids noware so confused they don't really even know what sexthey are anymore.The BoM is a great tale of the price of sin... DEATH!America is all messed up. Until you see the truth beforeyour eyes the story will be just a story.It's only the wise that can understand.Being older helps. There's no way I would haveunderstood the deeper meaning when I was in my20's or 30's.You need to learn what evil and hell really is.(I know where you could go ) Man I love THIS guy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 PD, I wonder if you searched the scriptures i.e. the BofM with only the intent of learning it's doctrines, instead of trying to know if it were true or not....could help. Meditating on the principles taught, and connecting them to your own life on a deep and personal level, just might give you more of a tingle than the sandlot. Then again...maybe not. But don't give up...try different angles until you find the one meant for you...your door, with your name over the top....waiting for you to open and enter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest curvette Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 As much as I looooove to disagree with her, I grudgingly admit that Peace has a point. :) Maybe Moroni was such a spiritual person that he just couldn't conceive that the promise may not work the same way on all people. Looking back on my conversion, I did have that bolt of lightening, but it wasn't specified toward the book of Mormon being true. It was more like the spirit telling me that this church is where I needed to be. When I started thinking and studying a little more and questioning doctrine and scriptures I was already firmly ingrained in the church. My husband is very devout and we agreed to raise our children in the church. Also, my core beliefs are still the same. I just don't think there is a perfect belief system on this earth. No intellectual person is ever truly content because they always want to learn more. I think it is possible to accept inperfection in our situations and still be very happy. I think it is possible to not accept the Book of Mormon as a literal history and still find many many spiritual, beneficial truths in it's pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Peace+Feb 11 2004, 09:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 11 2004, 09:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 10 2004, 05:33 PM Peace--you know, President Hunter never "repented" of being a lawyer, in fact, several times he mentioned being proud to help his clients navigate the intricacies of the law. Since he didn't "repent", according to you he must have been called by God inspite of his SINFUL state. Is that what you are saying? Apparently being a lawyer is no big deal to god. He has called numerous GA's as apostles and even a prophet. Doesn't mean he was a lawyer 24-7. And you know we live in a wicked day....God knows we need fire to fight fire. Peace--Ohh, so now you admit that it was OK with God for Pres. Hunter to be lawyer, as long as he was "fighting fire with fire"? And as long as he wasn't doing it 24-7? What a non-sensical mind you have, Peace! I sure hope God's mind is not as confused as yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elinz Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 "Better that one man dies than an entire nation fall into disbelief?" The Muslims are more confident of this than Christians. The LDS faith is on the fence... Or am I totally incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Cal+Feb 18 2004, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Feb 18 2004, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 11 2004, 09:33 AM <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 10 2004, 05:33 PM Peace--you know, President Hunter never "repented" of being a lawyer, in fact, several times he mentioned being proud to help his clients navigate the intricacies of the law. Since he didn't "repent", according to you he must have been called by God inspite of his SINFUL state. Is that what you are saying? Apparently being a lawyer is no big deal to god. He has called numerous GA's as apostles and even a prophet. Doesn't mean he was a lawyer 24-7. And you know we live in a wicked day....God knows we need fire to fight fire. Peace--Ohh, so now you admit that it was OK with God for Pres. Hunter to be lawyer, as long as he was "fighting fire with fire"? And as long as he wasn't doing it 24-7? What a non-sensical mind you have, Peace! I sure hope God's mind is not as confused as yours. Maybe it is your mind that is confused...have you ever considered that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Elinz -- Being older helps. There's no way I would haveunderstood the deeper meaning when I was in my20's or 30's.You need to learn what evil and hell really is.(I know where you could go )I associated with lifeguards and surf bums for ten years, so I know from debauchery. I've worked with self-centered, proud, combative, and amoral lawyers, so I've sensed a bit of Isaiah's description of wickedness -- that is, a state where a man says in his heart, "I am, and [there is] none else beside me." I've studied history, so intellectually I recognize how incredibly cruel and evil men can be to each other, although I've been fortunate not to see, say, a Holocaust up close and personal. My wife's background has allowed me to understand the evil of a self-centered man's abandoning one family after another, and inflicting his rage on his children. And I went to law school in Los Angeles, which means that highly educated people spent three years trying to convince me that good is evil and immorality is good. (Understand, of course, I'm not referring to every professor -- just to the general intellectual ethos there.) In short, although I grew up in a loving, stable, virtuous family and managed to steer clear of most of the world's traps, it's not like I'm a complete innocent as to how bad things can be. If anything, the illustrations of wickedness I've experienced are more detailed than their Book of Mormon counterparts. (The Book of Mormon generally just says the people became prideful, or wicked, and got clobbered accordingly, with the odd specific example of a Rameumptom, mass burning or gang rape added for detail.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elinz Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 If it helps any I don't have a literal belief in either the BoM or the Bible. I don't think that were meant to have literal interpretations because they are describing complex and abstract topics. It's like with the show "Joan of Arcadia". Some nut will 100 years from now demand a literal interpretation of the episodes when they were meant as musings. Jesus would have cried if he saw how it all turned out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by elinz@Feb 19 2004, 01:07 PM If it helps any I don't have a literal belief in either theBoM or the Bible. I don't think that were meant to haveliteral interpretations because they are describingcomplex and abstract topics.It's like with the show "Joan of Arcadia".Some nut will 100 years from now demand a literalinterpretation of the episodes when they were meantas musings.Jesus would have cried if he saw how it all turned out... Jesus has seen how it all turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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