Boat building

[bytor2112]

Why does the ship built by Nephi differ from the barges built by the Jaredites......or does it? The description sounds like a primitive submarine. Why does the Lord ask Jared how the barges are to be lighted? Is he testing his faith? I wonder how big the air holes are......any thoughts? No windows? Did glass as we know it exist back then or was that just a term used to describe something else? Edited August 4, 2008 by bytor2112

[MarginOfError]

The knowledge of shipbuilding wasn't very advanced at Jared's time. The Jaredites would have had enough trouble imagining a sea-worthy vessel, let alone picturing the tools necessary to build it. At that time, Astrology was still in its infancy, and Astrology is what eventually gave birth to navigation. If the Lord had shown the Jaredites how to build a ship, they would have been clueless about how to even use it. Furthermore, the Jaredites needed eight vessels, and boxes can be built much more quickly than ships.

By Nephi's time, people had learned to make small boats, and Nephi would have at least had some preconceived idea of what might float.

I don't know how big the air holes were. Probably big enough to dispose of waste and circulate air.

I'm not sure if glass had been discovered yet, but if it had, it would have been bubbly, discolored, and weak. Since the Jaredite barges had to spend a great deal of time underwater (due to the winds used to blow them across), the glass likely wouldn't have withstood the pressures needed to get the barges underwater.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

As far as I'm aware, there are no explicit instructions in the BOM for Nephi's ship, so we can only speculate how it looked. I've never thought of the Jeredite ships as "submarines" - they weren't designed to submerge intentionally, but they were designed to survive being submerged temporarily.

The way I've always heard it is that the Lord answered the questions upon which their survival depended. Light, although very convenient, would not be necessary for life. I'm not sure I buy that explanation 100%, personally. Maybe God wanted Mohonri to think for himself a little bit (I don't think God wants mindless automatons). Or perhaps we'll never know the real reason.

"Glass was manufactured in open pits, ca. 3000 B.C." Why wasn't it used? Eh, any number of reasons from inneffectiveness to time constraints or lack of glassmakers in their group.

The knowledge of shipbuilding wasn't very advanced at Jared's time.

Well speak for yourself. "About 5,000 years ago, Ancient Egyptians already knew how to assemble planks of wood into a ship hull."

I'm having difficulty finding any conclusive information on dating the Jaredites or the Tower of Babel in order to compare the histories of ship-building and the Jaredites, but it's reasonable to assume that there were many cultures with maritime skills around at the time.

[rameumptom]

The Book of Mormon states that the Jaredite barges were "tight like unto a dish" and compared them to Noah's ark. It may be that they used the ark, or their understanding from oral stories, how to build barges.

Some have suggested that the seas were still violent in this period, not being long after the Great Flood. Perhaps a regular ship would not have managed as well for them. Also, we must note that they were driven for months across the waters.

Nephi's route was likely along shore lines across much of the way, until they were forced into the open waters of the Pacific.

[MarginOfError]

"About 5,000 years ago, Ancient Egyptians already knew how to assemble planks of wood into a ship hull."

None of these ships would have had a chance on open water.

And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind.

And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the bark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters.

And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind.

I've often suspected that the Jaredite barges were intended to be submerged. Remember that they had to put an air hole in both the top and the bottom, implying that the barges tended to get rolled around a bit. They were pretty well abused by the waves and the wind. In those conditions, to be on the surface and taking that abuse could be hazardous to the structural integrity of the hull, and catastrophic to the life contained therein. Submerging the barges would have protected the hull and the voyagers from the jolting forces that would have been experienced in those conditions. Then again, I could be very wrong; afterall, I wasn't there.

[rameumptom]

None of these ships would have had a chance on open water.

I've often suspected that the Jaredite barges were intended to be submerged. Remember that they had to put an air hole in both the top and the bottom, implying that the barges tended to get rolled around a bit. They were pretty well abused by the waves and the wind. In those conditions, to be on the surface and taking that abuse could be hazardous to the structural integrity of the hull, and catastrophic to the life contained therein. Submerging the barges would have protected the hull and the voyagers from the jolting forces that would have been experienced in those conditions. Then again, I could be very wrong; afterall, I wasn't there.

I viewed it slightly different. The top hole was for air, and the bottom one was for obtaining water on their trip. I highly doubt the people and animals could afford to be constantly flipped over in the ocean. Go underneath on occasion, yes.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

None of these ships would have had a chance on open water.

This Day in History 1970: Heyerdahl sails papyrus boat

Picture of the boat: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/RaII.InMuseum.jpg

:) I love it when someone says "can't" because there's always somebody else out there willing and able to prove "can".

I've often suspected that the Jaredite barges were intended to be submerged. Remember that they had to put an air hole in both the top and the bottom, implying that the barges tended to get rolled around a bit. They were pretty well abused by the waves and the wind. In those conditions, to be on the surface and taking that abuse could be hazardous to the structural integrity of the hull, and catastrophic to the life contained therein. Submerging the barges would have protected the hull and the voyagers from the jolting forces that would have been experienced in those conditions. Then again, I could be very wrong; afterall, I wasn't there.

I think Rameumptom's response is clear enough for this. I would append that the bottom hole was also for removal of waste. And who knows, possibly fishing :) I doubt the holes would have been any use for water, being ocean salt water it wouldn't have been potable.

Nephi's route was likely along shore lines across much of the way, until they were forced into the open waters of the Pacific.

Pacific? Isn't that kinda taking the long way around?

Also, since the Pacific islands were already populated at Nephi's time, they would have been very likey to bump into other cultures, islands, and boats on their trip through Polynesia - none of which were mentioned in the BOM account. Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... But I think the Atlantic would have been the better route.

[Moksha]

Some boats are just of curious workmanship.

[MarginOfError]

I love it when someone says "can't" because there's always somebody else out there willing and able to prove "can".

Curse the internet!

I hate doing this, but my understanding of early ship building is quite clearly flawed. Now I'll go have a good cry and plot my revenge on those who have exposed me. Can you say golden emerods?

[rameumptom]

Curse the internet!

I hate doing this, but my understanding of early ship building is quite clearly flawed. Now I'll go have a good cry and plot my revenge on those who have exposed me. Can you say golden emerods?

Ouch!

[rameumptom]

I think Rameumptom's response is clear enough for this. I would append that the bottom hole was also for removal of waste. And who knows, possibly fishing :) I doubt the holes would have been any use for water, being ocean salt water it wouldn't have been potable.

Pacific? Isn't that kinda taking the long way around?

Also, since the Pacific islands were already populated at Nephi's time, they would have been very likey to bump into other cultures, islands, and boats on their trip through Polynesia - none of which were mentioned in the BOM account. Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... But I think the Atlantic would have been the better route.

Most LDS scholars agree that Nephi went over the Pacific. The location where they would have entered the Ocean, the south-eastern edge of the Arabian peninsula and the trade currents of the oceans, would have made for an easier trip across the Pacific.

Yes, they could have come across others. But that seems to not have entered into Nephi's narrative in the small plates, because those plates were detailed towards his family and their spiritual adventure to the promised land. You'll note that they buried Ishmael at Nahom, which is now known as a people that lived on the spice trade route (which Lehi followed), and buried Ishmael in their cemetery. Obviously, there was some contact. But one or two chapters for a boat voyage does not give enough time to describe much of a voyage that would have lasted months.

[rameumptom]

Oh, and evaporation and distillation techniques were used anciently to retrieve "fresh" water from the oceans during sea voyage. So they potentially could have used the bottom hole to retrieve water, as well.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Curse the internet!

I hate doing this, but my understanding of early ship building is quite clearly flawed. Now I'll go have a good cry and plot my revenge on those who have exposed me. Can you say golden emerods?

I read somewhere that the Philistines found that Preperation E worked well for that....

Most LDS scholars agree that Nephi went over the Pacific. The location where they would have entered the Ocean, the south-eastern edge of the Arabian peninsula and the trade currents of the oceans, would have made for an easier trip across the Pacific.

Yes, they could have come across others. But that seems to not have entered into Nephi's narrative in the small plates, because those plates were detailed towards his family and their spiritual adventure to the promised land. You'll note that they buried Ishmael at Nahom, which is now known as a people that lived on the spice trade route (which Lehi followed), and buried Ishmael in their cemetery. Obviously, there was some contact. But one or two chapters for a boat voyage does not give enough time to describe much of a voyage that would have lasted months.

The possibilities are there, yes. When I was in 8th grade I was writing my own fiction about Atlantis and one of the chapters had a visit from Lehi to get supplies :)