I'm In Tears -- Help!

[Guest ceeboo]

Hey Ceeboo,

I don't know how long this thread will last, how long people will participate -- I hope others of different faiths will join at some point. I'm still optimistic that we can participate in an adult conversation, without childish name-calling, LOL

I was wondering if you (Ceeboo) were familiar with a book, "Pageant of the Popes" by John Farrow (1942).

Hello candyprpl,

YEAAA WELL I THINK YOUR A PUPLE HAIRED PURPLE PANTS POO POO HEAD!!!!!

I also would really like this thread to continue in a direction of sharing and educating eachother with what we can offer to those willing to get past our own ( me included ) bias and history. I am still not sure ( even with all the seeming support ) how far such a conversation can go until you reach real and personal hurdles that IMHO will greatly overshadow any sincere offerings.

At any rate, I guess we won't know until we move forward and give it our best Christ-like effort.:):)

No, I am sorry that I hav no knowledge of the " Pageant of the Popes "

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

I am thinking about reading "Rough Stone Rolling" myself. I have like a stack of books ahead of it though. I seem to be a book magnet lately with everyone saying "read this!"

[rameumptom]

Rough Stone Rolling is a very good book. It is a history book with very good analysis. It is NOT a touching testimony builder as you will find from Lucy Mack Smith. Joseph Smith does mess up in this story, and does do many controversial things. He IS fallible and human. He is not the caricature created by those seeking a "faithful to the Church" version. It is the real Joseph one finds in this book, so it fits in well along with my "faithful" histories that inspire, filling in the missing spots that make Joseph a real person.

[Misshalfway]

I guess I wonder if it is accurate.

[HiJolly]

I guess I wonder if it is accurate.

Having read the book, my opinion is that it is accurate, moreso than other books on Joseph to date. It was written by a stake patriarch and professor emeritus of history.

I can't emphasize too much how I enjoyed it. A great book.

HiJolly

[Justice]

I would love ALL comments to my dillema.

I think you only cry because you care. It's an increasingly rare quality in people these days. Tears such as yours are common in scriptures, also.

It's just a fact of life that people will disagree. Many people will use their agency to be contentious about religion. It always causes the spiritually sensitive pain. To see others use their agency for wrong will/should never be easy, but the fact remains that we can't live other's lives for them.

All you can do is continue to care; continue to cry, and others may learn from your example.

[candyprpl]

Misshalfway -- I've started reading 'Rough Stone Rolling.' I like what the author says in the Preface.

...it is unlikely there will ever be consensus on Joseph Smith's character or his achievements. The multiplication of scholarly studies and the discovery of new sources have only heightened the controversies surrounding his life. The central difficulty is that Joseph Smith lives on in that faith of the Mormons, like Abraham in Judaism or Muhammad in Islam. Everything about Smith matters to people who have built their lives on his teachings. To protect their own deepest commitments, believers want to shield thier prophet's reputation. On the other hand, people who have broken away from Mormonism -- and they produce a large amount of the scholarship -- have to justify thier decision to leave. They cannot countenance evidence of divine inspiration in his teachings without catching themselves in disastrous error. Added to these combatants are those suspicious of all religious authority who find in Joseph Smith a perfect target for their fears. Given the emotional crosscurrents, agreement will never be reached about his character, his inspiration, or his accomplishments.(emphasis added)

I think we see all these attitudes on this forum. Many have talked about this book and said that I should read it. I've been told that it's not a faith promoting biography. That makes me wonder enough to read it. I don't think Joseph needed to be perfect to ba a prophet and if that's what they're talking about then I understand that comment. I'm only on page 23 (a lot of words, LOL) and I think the book has been well researched.

As much as I can know, I do want to know who he was.

Justice -- what kind words!! I do feel that it is 'godly sorrow' that sometimes racks me. Many years ago I attended a seminar series (when I was on my journey) which taught me the importance of seeing the world as a community. I've added upon that as seeing everyone as my brother and sister, as the Lord has intended us all to do. So, yes, it does disturb me when family members don't get along. Oh, it's so much more than that!!! My thoughts since first posting as evolved a little with the help of all you.

Our first Institute class was yesterday. Studying the NT. My feelings about our differences has settled, a little,LOL. I still wonder why the differences in the interpretations.(sigh):)

[rameumptom]

Meanwhile, I accept Joseph's flaws gratefully. If he can make it to heaven, so can I!

but I cannot dismiss his teachings, which have shown time and again to amazingly reflect ancient things - things which Joseph could not have known except via God's revelation.

[Misshalfway]

I feel much the same way. Thru out this last while....the trial of my faith, I will call it.....I have had my doubts-- or at least the temptation to doubt and every single time I come up against the BofM and it calms me every time. I can't deny how it has blessed my life! I can't deny the many times God has spoken to me....instructed and comforted me thru the words in that work!!! There was one particular moment when I wondered if I felt like one of the apostate witnesses. They could never deny the BofM.

[Islander]

I suggest that our own sense of historical proximity and idealization gets in the way of objectivity. ALL prophets are still human and thus vulnerable to sin and personal error. From Moses to Joseph, they all experienced moments of weakness, arrogance, fear and frustration that translated into less than prophetic behavior.

Since Joseph lived in very recent times and crossed paths with thousands, a more extensive record of contemporary social encounterns is to be expected, some accurate some not.

[Misshalfway]

I am not afraid of Joseph's weakness. I am however concerned when I hear things about Joseph's worthiness. Those are the parts of the history that I wish to find accuracy with first and foremost.

[candyprpl]

I am not afraid of Joseph's weakness. I am however concerned when I hear things about Joseph's worthiness. Those are the parts of the history that I wish to find accuracy with first and foremost.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying -- could you explain?

[Misshalfway]

It is clear to me that God uses the weak things of the world to accomplish his work. But for anyone to truly be trusted of the Lord and to be placed in a position of leading the last dispensation for example, worthiness is absolutely necessary.

I know in my own life, that when I sin, my spiritual gifts are suspended. I know that when a person breaks the law of chastity, say a bishop or SP, that they may experience a loss of priesthood power and will most certainly loose the trust of the Lord and potential blessings and are literally moved out of their place --released from responsibility. David is my favorite example of this in the scriptures. Someone so very favored and trusted of the Lord....and someone who certainly, after falling from grace, was forgiven but never trusted in the same way again.

I have to believe the same is true for any of the Lord's prophets. That is what I mean by accepting that Joseph was indeed a fallible human, but feeling uncomfortable about claims that he was somehow unseemly in his conduct with other women.

I don't believe that God would continue to use Joseph as a servant if he didn't maintain his worthiness.

Does that help?

Edited August 29, 2008 by Misshalfway

[candyprpl]

I thought that's what you were talking about, but I didn't want to make any assumptions. I guess I'm dealing with that myself. I also know that God would not continue to use Joseph as a servant if he didn't maintain his worthiness. I guess that's why I'm reading some of the books suggested to me. I wish I could find the quote that I just read the other day -- it quoted Emma saying (this was from the RLDS sources) she never doubted Joseph's calling and this was said in her elder years. And a quote by Joseph about his hurting Emma, "no one knows my heart." So far, everything I've come across implies that this was not easy for Joseph. He didn't like it hurting Emma.

Thanks for sharing.

[Justice]

One of my favorite scriptures!

1 Peter 1:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

[Misshalfway]

One of my favorite scriptures!

1 Peter 1:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Thank you Justice. I am actually very touched.

[Misshalfway]

I thought that's what you were talking about, but I didn't want to make any assumptions. I guess I'm dealing with that myself. I also know that God would not continue to use Joseph as a servant if he didn't maintain his worthiness. I guess that's why I'm reading some of the books suggested to me. I wish I could find the quote that I just read the other day -- it quoted Emma saying (this was from the RLDS sources) she never doubted Joseph's calling and this was said in her elder years. And a quote by Joseph about his hurting Emma, "no one knows my heart." So far, everything I've come across implies that this was not easy for Joseph. He didn't like it hurting Emma.

Thanks for sharing.

I would love to read that quote. I would love to see that.

Just as a PS to my above statement, I just remembered that saying "where much is given, much is expected."

:)

[priyanka]

I received the bag today. i must say i am very disappointed.

i have sold many handbags and would never dream of stuffing

an expensive, or even an inexpensive bag into a shirt box. i

really didn't care if i got it over night or in a week. you also

stated in the listing that the receipt would accompany the bag-

not a copy! which also indicated you were not the original

buyer of the bag.the corners look slightly scuffed. i am not

sure weather it was used a few times or just got scuffed as a

result of being jammed in a too small box. i am a handbag

junkie so i am very familiar with original designer paperwork

and receipts, and even the slightest signs of wear. i will wait

for your response to see how you propose we can rectify this

situation.

==================================================================

rosy

Utah Drug Addiction

[Justice]

My daughter made me this desktop image for my computer for my birthday last year. It's been my desktop ever since. You're welcome to it!

http://www.mustardonmyjacket.com/peter17.html

Having difficlties with the upload, here's the link:

http://www.mustardonmyjacket.com/peter17.html

Edited August 29, 2008 by Justice

[rameumptom]

If we were to have modern accounts on Moses from Pharaoh, the family of the Egyptian he murdered, the cities and peoples he annihilated, and from Israelite dissidents; I'm sure we'd have quite a bit of "history" to write against Moses, as well.

Of course, we could do the same with Jesus and his apostles. His calling the Canaanite woman a "dog" would not look good on his prophetic resume. Neither would Peter's cutting a soldier's ear off or dissing the Gentile converts at lunch.

[Snow]

It really hurts my heart to read so many posts that end in arguments.

Does God really want us all to belong to one church? I'm serious.

For me the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the right church for me. I believe the things I'm being taught. I know that this church is being led by a true prophet of God and that is the church that I want to be a part of. I know that others don't think we respect the Bible as much as they do (maybe I'm saying that wrong, but that's how it comes across to me). One of the reasons that I stopped attending church all together was because I couldn't find anyone who agreed with what the right interpretation of the Bible was. Even pastors in the same denominations seem to disagree at times. I've always been one to see both sides of an argument and I think that is what has me so upset now. When I hear someone else explain their view on passages in the Bible -- I understand what they're saying. When I hear our church leaders explain a passage, I also understand what they mean. How can veiws be so different?

I know God wants me to be a part of this church -- I've had a wonderful, sacred experience that led me to this church. I know I was baptized by one having authority. I feel the Spirit in my life like I've never felt before. My father died believing that he was a man of God and a devout Baptist, yet had no problem asking for a Priesthood blessing from his son-in-law and grandson. And he felt comforted by that Priesthood blessing.

Oh I can't stop crying! I don't like my faith being tested like this! I can accept the things being said about Joseph Smith and knowing that not all LDS people are perfect in professing to be Christian -- but reading the disputes over the Bible is hurting! Institute classes start next week and we will be studying the NT. Most of my personal study lately has been the NT -- maybe I will get answers to my agonizing prayers about this.

I would love ALL comments to my dillema.

Have you ever considerd a nice Gouda or perhaps a Parmigiano-Reggiano?

It couldn't hurt and it might just help.

[candyprpl]

I would love to read that quote. I would love to see that.

Just as a PS to my above statement, I just remembered that saying "where much is given, much is expected."

:)

I will try and find the quote. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the two books I'm reading right now -- one about JS and the other about Emma. I can't believe I didn't mark it -- I usually mark quotes that are important to me.

It is important to remember that saying.:)

[Islander]

Again, it is just my view on the issue; that digging into the personal history of the prophet is a modern invention since no detail account exist of any of the other ancient prophets other than the biblical record. It is an exercise that was devised by the prophet's critics then and continued tobe used today. Discredit him as a man and destroy his legacy, the theory goes.

We should concentrate on the doctrine. Many who can regurgitate anecdotes of the life of Joseph, even if of dubious authorship and validity, can not even quote one verse of the Doctrine and Covenant.

Just my thoughts.

[Elphaba]

Many who can regurgitate anecdotes of the life of Joseph, even if of dubious authorship and validity, can not even quote one verse of the Doctrine and Covenant.

I strongly disagree with your portrayal of those who study Joseph's life, including his peccadillios. I cannot quote you scripture only because I haven't memorized it. That doesn't mean I haven't read it, especially when it's relevant to what I am researching at the time.

Dismissing people who enjoy reading about Joseph's life is a thought-stopping cliche'. Just because they make the efforts to discover the "difficult truths," doesn't make them an anti-Mormon. Richard Bushman addresses this in the essay I posted.

Plus, I can at least spell it right: Doctrine and CovenantS.

Elphaba

[candyprpl]

Islander -- thank-you for your thoughts -- I do appreciate it. I do somewhat agree with what you said, however, I am enjoying learning more about JS and Emma. I love the Book of Mormon and I want to get to know more about Joseph -- even the parts that cause controversy.

Hi Elphaba -- this is all your fault, ya know,LOL! I'm reading Rough Stone Rolling and Mormon Egnigma, Emma Hale Smith because you suggested it. I hope you'll stick around on this thread -- I know you have a lot to share.:)