Headaches?

[StrawberryFields]

I am not one who gets headaches often. When I do get a headache I take ======= and I am relieved from the pain I feel. Did I really what a headache and if so where is the PROOF?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 08:33 AM

I am not one who gets headaches often. When I do get a headache I take ======= and I am relieved from the pain I feel. Did I really what a headache and if so where is the PROOF?

But do you know the nature of your headache?

What caused it? Where does it live. Does it have a son? Does it have a father? Is it physical or spiritual? Is it fair, or does it favor only cause pain to those that believe in it?

Aside from that, no I can't prove headaches exist...but I know it with every fibre of my head.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Jan 30 2004, 10:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Jan 30 2004, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 08:33 AM

I am not one who gets headaches often. When I do get a headache I take ======= and I am relieved from the pain I feel. Did I really what a headache and if so where is the PROOF?

But do you know the nature of your headache?

What caused it? Where does it live. Does it have a son? Does it have a father? Is it physical or spiritual? Is it fair, or does it favor only cause pain to those that believe in it?

Aside from that, no I can't prove headaches exist...but I know it with every fibre of my head.

My headache has the nature of the beast.....the one found in the OT. : )

What caused it was the son of the beast.....: ) so it does have a son....: )

It does have a father....he was in my head last week....his name is migrain...

Most definitely both spiritual and physical.....for all things are spiritual ....and physical.

It definitely wasn't fair.....until I drank both rootbeer and the chocolate shake within an hour of each other...then it was pure justice....fair as all get out.

It does cause pain to those it loves and those who believe in it....LOL

[StrawberryFields]

Okay...

We KNOW when we have a headache because we can FEEL it right?

That is how we KNOW IT IS THERE.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 11:11 AM

Okay...

We KNOW when we have a headache because we can FEEL it right?

That is how we KNOW IT IS THERE.

Leaving aside the question of whether a headache would show up on some kind of brain scan (and I'm a mechanic, not a doctor, so pardon my ignorance), another person would only know you had a headache based on information from you -- your testimony of it, as it were.

Is that testimony always truthful? Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jan 30 2004, 11:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jan 30 2004, 11:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 11:11 AM

Okay...

We KNOW when we have a headache because we can FEEL it right?

That is how we KNOW IT IS THERE.

Leaving aside the question of whether a headache would show up on some kind of brain scan (and I'm a mechanic, not a doctor, so pardon my ignorance), another person would only know you had a headache based on information from you -- your testimony of it, as it were.

Is that testimony always truthful? Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't?

Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 30 2004, 12:23 PM

Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?

It CAN, given the lack of a proper foundation of that TRUTH.

Sure that can happen anywhere, but should it happen in a place that is deemed safe?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 30 2004, 11:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 30 2004, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Jan 30 2004, 11:20 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 11:11 AM

Okay...

We KNOW when we have a headache because we can FEEL it right?

That is how we KNOW IT IS THERE.

Leaving aside the question of whether a headache would show up on some kind of brain scan (and I'm a mechanic, not a doctor, so pardon my ignorance), another person would only know you had a headache based on information from you -- your testimony of it, as it were.

Is that testimony always truthful? Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't?

Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?

Not at all. It's our job to sift the truth from the falsehoods. If a person (say, my wife) has never falsely complained of a headache (and I'd like to think she wouldn't ), I'd be more inclined to take her word for it. On the other hand, I'd be less inclined to believe someone who'd lied to me before.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 30 2004, 12:20 PM

Is that testimony always truthful? Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't?

This is my take on this:

tes·ti·mo·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tst-mn)

n. pl. tes·ti·mo·nies

1.

a. A declaration by a witness under oath, as that given before a court or deliberative body.

b. All such declarations, spoken or written, offered in a legal case or deliberative hearing.

2. Evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof.

3. A public declaration regarding a religious experience.

I believe the testimony that we are speaking of here is number 3.

When a person gives a testimony they are coming from their own experience to have it be Their Testimony. Is it Truthful? I can only speak for myself when I say "yes". Do people ever claim to have a headache when they don't? Maybe... but they are not giving a testimony of their headache.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I think most people who give their testimonies about God are describing real experiences that they had.

Yes, some might lie to keep other people happy.

But some people may also lie about headaches (to take the day off work, for example).

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 30 2004, 11:20 AM

Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't?

Doh! I'm busted! (I feigned a headache the other night...)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 30 2004, 11:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 30 2004, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Jan 30 2004, 11:20 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 11:11 AM

Okay...

We KNOW when we have a headache because we can FEEL it right?

That is how we KNOW IT IS THERE.

Leaving aside the question of whether a headache would show up on some kind of brain scan (and I'm a mechanic, not a doctor, so pardon my ignorance), another person would only know you had a headache based on information from you -- your testimony of it, as it were.

Is that testimony always truthful? Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't?

Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?d

I like your response, Peace.

But, when you try to analogize(?) a religious experience to a physical problem/manifestation, there are always going to be problems that will eventually tear apart that analogy.

For example, I worked at a hospital in NYC, on the pediatric floor where we saw the gosh-darn sickest kids. It was heart-breaking taking care of them. They would come in over and over, we would get attached, etc. We occasionally saw this one child. At home, the child would have these symptoms that would require hospitalization and tests, etc., and so the child would be admitted only to have the symptoms disappear on admission. After several of these admissions, the staff started thinking that something untoward was happening at home, causing the child to be admitted, and in the end it was determined that the child's mother had Munchausen's Syndrome by proxy. A psychiatric/psychological problem that could cause severe harm by the parent (usually mother) to the child (in an attention-seeking bid).

How does this relate? Most people that complain of physical symptoms are telling the truth. They go to the doctor to find some type of relief for the problem. But, what happens at the doctor/hospital? They have to give a detailed history to help find the cause of the problem, they have to be put through a battery of tests to make sure it is (or isn't) a life-threatening condition.

If we treated our testimonies the same way we treated our illnesses, we would logically determine that what we had was not something given to us by God because we can't prove it. It is something we have to take on faith. If we tried to take our illnesses on faith, we could put ourselves in severe harms way. We could have faith that the headache was just tension, or just a migraine, but it could be an aneurysm, or a brain tumor.

(Now that I have written this out, I'm not sure how it relates, but, Oh, well. )

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 31 2004, 12:30 PM

(Now that I have written this out, I'm not sure how it relates, but, Oh, well. )

I know how you feel Jenda. B)

I was trying to come up with a scenerio that felt very real to the person having the feeling but couldn't be proven. Some of the threads here are members trying to defend their position of feeling the spirit to those who discredit it. I have described feeling the spirit as goose bumps and elation at the same time. The friend I was talking to said that he had felt that but it wasn’t the spirit at all. I think he described it as a paranormal phenomenon.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 30 2004, 11:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 30 2004, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 30 2004, 12:23 PM

Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?

It CAN, given the lack of a proper foundation of that TRUTH.

Sure that can happen anywhere, but should it happen in a place that is deemed safe?

Hmmm. I don't think that a foundation, proper or not at all, would change truth.

Truth to me is a foundation unto itself, as well as the whole. If a truth is 'hidden' in a mass of lies...it may be over looked, but it would still be truth.

I have seen lies that seemed to be true because just a little truth was given with them.

But does the truth become any less true because of the lies? I don't think so...the lies are lies and the truth is truth...we just have to determine which is which.

And....no, it should not happen in a place that is deemed safe. But is there any such place any more?

Ezek. 7: 25

25 Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 31 2004, 10:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 31 2004, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Jan 30 2004, 11:30 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 30 2004, 12:23 PM

Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?

It CAN, given the lack of a proper foundation of that TRUTH.

Sure that can happen anywhere, but should it happen in a place that is deemed safe?

Hmmm. I don't think that a foundation, proper or not at all, would change truth.

Truth to me is a foundation unto itself, as well as the whole. If a truth is 'hidden' in a mass of lies...it may be over looked, but it would still be truth.

I have seen lies that seemed to be true because just a little truth was given with them.

But does the truth become any less true because of the lies? I don't think so...the lies are lies and the truth is truth...we just have to determine which is which.

And....no, it should not happen in a place that is deemed safe. But is there any such place any more?

Ezek. 7: 25

25 Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.

Did you say somewhere where you have been accused of writing like a GA? LOL

Here was the point that I was trying to make.

Say for instance... that you have been paying your tithing faithfully but you had not recognized and blessings yet. With this add it that you had been promised blessing from paying your tithing and it wasn't a principal of obedience. Then you come to LDS Talk and you hear someone make a statement like "all you do when you pay your tithing is buy your temple recommend". If you had not built YOUR OWN testimony in THAT TRUTH, your TRUTH in the blessings of tithing could be destroyed forever.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 31 2004, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 31 2004, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 31 2004, 12:30 PM

(Now that I have written this out, I'm not sure how it relates, but, Oh, well.    )

I know how you feel Jenda. B)

I was trying to come up with a scenerio that felt very real to the person having the feeling but couldn't be proven. Some of the threads here are members trying to defend their position of feeling the spirit to those who discredit it. I have described feeling the spirit as goose bumps and elation at the same time. The friend I was talking to said that he had felt that but it wasn’t the spirit at all. I think he described it as a paranormal phenomenon.

"Paranormal phenomenon" Huh?

Sounds like someone discrediting the feelings of the Holy Ghost for one reason or another. I have heard that one before!

I grew up with an agnostic step brother "Peter" who I discussed religion with (or the concept of religion) through out our teens. His best friend "Mike" was (is) an atheist, and I don't think that "Peter" ever stepped a foot in a church in his life. We discussed things like Christ and the commandments, and the Holy Ghost.

Peter and Mike were both into Chemistry and quite often used the Chem Lab at the school to work on projects and homework during their spare time. One day they were in the Lab working on one such project, side by side at the counter, Mike was pouring and shaking the liquids, and Peter was standing there just observing this time. From out of the blue Peter hears a voice that says "get back". He said he looked around the class and it was empty except for the two of them, so he ignored the voice he heard. A few seconds later he hears the same voice a little louder and a little sterner "Move Away NOW", Peter said he felt "weirded out" but he takes a couple of big steps backwards anyway. BOOM- the flask blows up in Mikes hands, knocking Peter back against the door. Mike looses part of his eyesight, quite a few fingers (etc) and was lucky to be alive. Peter only suffered some hearing loss and was part deaf for a couple of weeks.

After he was better, Peter and I talked about what had happened in the Chem Lab...and I told him that what he heard was the Holy Ghost speaking to him. And that he showed a little faith in listening to that voice and acting upon it. He dismissed it with words such as "paranormal phenomenon", but I knew what it was, and I always hoped that he would think about that experience sometimes and begin to doubt his scientific approach to what he heard.

[Cal]

And you KNOW it was the Holy Ghost because...........

[Guest Starsky]

Do you know what it is to lose a child CAL? Probably not. Only those who have lost a child know how it feels.

The same thing is true with the Holy Ghost...Only those who have experienced it know that they have experienced the Holy Ghost and not something from the pizza they ate a few hours before.

[Guest antishock82003]

If headaches don't exist, why do we have aspirin?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2004, 12:33 PM

And you KNOW it was the Holy Ghost because...........

Cal, can you tell me what other voice would prompt him to move out of harms way? HUMMMMM? This was from an analytical mind where everything had to be logical in order for him to believe it. I grew up with a sibling with a mind like Mr. Spock. :)

I think that everyone is given the chance to experience the promptings of the Holy Ghost....it's up to that individual to listen and act upon it or refuse to listen and suffer the consequences.

[Cal]

Peace--you are truely an expert at spouting irrelevancies. What does your comment about losing a child have to do with anything. We have all experienced sadness and loss. I certainly empathize with anyone who has lost a child, but what does that have to do with whether "voices in your head" come from God or not. Schizoiphrenics hear voices all the time--where do they come from God too?

Have you never heard of simple intuition--the human mind is capable of subconcious feelings and intuitions about lots things. There is a lot that goes on under the surface in our thinking processess that can give us "warnings" about likely outcomes. Doesn't necessarily have to be considered a supernatural phenomenon. Labeling it as the "holy ghost" is your prerogative. I would call it intuition.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2004, 09:52 PM

Peace--you are truely an expert at spouting irrelevancies. What does your comment about losing a child have to do with anything. We have all experienced sadness and loss. I certainly empathize with anyone who has lost a child, but what does that have to do with whether "voices in your head" come from God or not. Schizoiphrenics hear voices all the time--where do they come from God too?

Have you never heard of simple intuition--the human mind is capable of subconcious feelings and intuitions about lots things. There is a lot that goes on under the surface in our thinking processess that can give us "warnings" about likely outcomes. Doesn't necessarily have to be considered a supernatural phenomenon. Labeling  it as the "holy ghost" is your prerogative. I would call it intuition.

Well everyone comes into this world with the light of Christ because otherwise they would not be alive...that is doctrine in the Bible, BofM, and D&C.

We know we are chemical beings which don't always function correctly...we might have diareah instead of normal bowel movements....we might have schizoiphrenia instead of normal brain functions and emotions.

The difference between physical adnormalities and spiritual manifestations is that most all the people experiencing the HG isn't schizoiphrenics...which can be proven by medical evaluation.

As for spouting off about this or that....my example was one of 'experiencing' which is totally valid because not everyone experiences the same 'sadness'...so they can't all know how the other person who has experienced it will feel....but if they experience the exact same thing....then they can know...

So it was valid...your argument against it wasn't.

The conscience is the light of Christ. As is the power of life. Intuition is a gift of the Spirit or Holy Ghost. It is the power to discern. This gift is expounded through out the scriptures...like when Christ discerned what the people were thinking when they tried to trick Him...or when Nephi discerned who killed the High Priest in the BofM...

It only makes sense if Father in Heaven is going to send His children down into a place that could have hazzards...that He would send them down with a 'connection' to Him so He could help them if they were willing to be helped.

Just like we have different ways of being helped here on the earth in physical manners...like telephones, TVs, radios, The Lord has given us different ways to receive communications from Him.

Holy Ghost, conscience, gifts of the Spirit...answers to prayers, miracles, even unexpected ones.

[StrawberryFields]

This could be another argument 'until the cows come home'.

In order for a person to recognize the Spirit for what it is they first have to believe in God. If they do not believe in God their "logic" forces them to call it by another name.

I truly have tender feelings for some of our non-believers on this board. What pains me the most is that I feel that they became non-believers because of hurt feelings. What happens to develop such pain and hurt feelings within a person? I am not sure but I would think that it is something like.

1. Being told that you are not good enough.

2. Having the 'dream life' within the grasp of your hands and they having it stolen away by someone else.

3. Having the gospel shoved down your throat with your teeth clenched. What may happen is the person doing the shoving maybe being a hypocrite and the shovee not wanting any part of that.

4. Being judged by others unrighteously

5. Having trials to hard to bare and still believe in the gospel

There are most likely more reasons why people get their feelings hurt leave the church and thus deny God. To those would like to say...Let down your defenses just for a short time of a month and see if you don't feel the Light of Christ back into your lives. I can say this because I am in the process of coming out of a Dark period myself and I know that it doesn't feel as good as the Light. We do need you here at LDS Talk as much as you need us. :)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Feb 2 2004, 10:14 AM

This could be another argument 'until the cows come home'.

In order for a person to recognize the Spirit for what it is they first have to believe in God. If they do not believe in God their "logic" forces them to call it by another name.

I truly have tender feelings for some of our non-believers on this board. What pains me the most is that I feel that they became non-believers because of hurt feelings. What happens to develop such pain and hurt feelings within a person? I am not sure but I would think that it is something like.

1. Being told that you are not good enough.

2. Having the 'dream life' within the grasp of your hands and they having it stolen away by someone else.

3. Having the gospel shoved down your throat with your teeth clenched. What may happen is the person doing the shoving maybe being a hypocrite and the shovee not wanting any part of that.

4. Being judged by others unrighteously

5. Having trials to hard to bare and still believe in the gospel

There are most likely more reasons why people get their feelings hurt leave the church and thus deny God. To those would like to say...Let down your defenses just for a short time of a month and see if you don't feel the Light of Christ back into your lives. I can say this because I am in the process of coming out of a Dark period myself and I know that it doesn't feel as good as the Light. We do need you here at LDS Talk as much as you need us. :)

Straw--that most mormons leaving the church do so because of hurt feelings is a myth.

Check out the RFM cite and read the essays by people who have left the church. How many of them cite "hurt feelings" as the cause?

In fact, ask Anti, bat, or me if our positions were cause by "hurt feelings". I think you will find that it has nothing to do with hurt feelings.

I didn't quit believing in Santa because he hurt my feelings. (Even though he did tick me off a few times)

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 2 2004, 07:18 PM

In fact, ask Anti, bat, or me if our positions were cause by "hurt feelings". I think you will find that it has nothing to do with hurt feelings.

Maybe I have just been reading the wrong information "in between the lines". Can you tell me what causes so much bitterness towards the church, a church that is doing absolutely nothing to affect your life once you leave it? I would think that if you just feel that the gospel is wrong you could just simply turn and walk away never looking back. Why haven't you and others moved on to something else, something fulfilling? To me this cries out hurt.

Please don’t get me wrong I am not asking anyone to leave. The only thing that makes sense is that you feel compelled to stay because you are missing something without it.