Eve's sin upon all women?

[Nappaljarri]

Wanderer, there are so many topics you have brought up. First of all I want to make one point. I think it is very naive to compare, church, family and society. They all have very different functions on this earth. For those who understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the blessings that it offers, our roles as women in Christ's church takes second place to our role as wives and mothers in zion. The church has been placed on this earth to facilitate the blessings of Christ's atonement through the "New and Everlasting Covenant" officiated by the priesthood therein. That is the role. The ultimate blessing being the unification of covenant families on this earth, ones that stand the test of time and continue in eternity

///However, I wonder if some of the traditionalism and cultural aspects and beliefs do need further thought. As nurturing children becomes more of a joint role between fathers and mothers in our society (as it always should have been...it is SO important) I wonder whether nurturing the church should also be more of a joint responsibility and whether some aspects of both roles can be shared within the church. In some cases it may be needed to ensure equal family time for both parents.///

Never at any time has the church stipulated how much time one should spend serving the church [note I’m sure much time is expected of general authorities, but the reason why they have been called is because their life is so in order that they can give that much time to the church]. This is left up to husbands and wives to work out how much time is required in their own family and how much they can give to the church. If there are church leaders stipulating that more is required at the hand of the ones serving, then they should first find out that it is doable by the server, otherwise the church leader is exercising unrighteous dominion.

///There may be some guys that are very good at relief society work and vice versa.///

There is no such thing as RS stuff and Priesthood stuff when it comes to church work. It is all the same “stuff” priesthood and RS work together for the same goal of uniting covenant families, RS is an appendage of the priesthood, therefore we are their arms and legs, we are doing priesthood work ,when we obey our RS presidents in doing good works among the church and in our communities.

///Are we able to truly comprehend these things and the mind of God....to understand the whole we break it up into parts that make up the whole and is this how we are meant to function or just the best we can do as humans or as many think///

This is an incorrect conception of God and his purposes. He created us in his image, that means we look like him and have his abilities and nature if we search it out. When I say him, in LDS theology, we have a heavenly mother as well, there is not separation in his kingdom, we are like him, then we must become as him as we unite with our spouse and become one with them in purpose and team work and love (this analogy is also used in church service “the body of Christ).

/// a division of things as the end result of the curse? ///

When I read the scriptures I see no curse on Adam. There was a curse on Cain for murdering his brother, but no curse on Adam. The ground was cursed FOR HIS SAKE, that is different to actually cursing Adam. And as for Eve, there was no curse. As for Eve, there was no curse on her either.

///But yes...I think a multiplicity of sorrow exists....imagine a beautiful temple...in which you can enter...but you cannot speak or do anything much...besides clean it or make it pretty. This is church for many women///

If this is how many women feel, then they need to read their scriptures and go to the temple to SEE and UNDERSTAND what the Lord requires of them, because he does not require them to just make “the temple” look pretty and clean it. The women of this church are the arms and legs and brains and heart of the work of the priesthood, if it were not for it’s women, the church would not exist, as they are the ones who bear and rear the men, teach the children, love the nurture the weary and sick, comfort the broken hearted and administer relief to the down trodden. I see nothing in our church teachings that tell women to clean the temple or the chapel and just sit back and make sure it is pretty. They are there to act well in their callings.

/// and I think of the words a dispossessed people...they cannot inherit...at least publicly to a degree... what the Holy Spirit gifts them with as a blessing to the church. They are baptised...but no immersion can ever get rid of Eve's curse.//

Once again, I think this attitude can lead to competition between the sexes. If there is a thought process of sexes competing, this is Satan fueling fire that is not there. It sure is not God’s design to have women and men worry about their role, he is the law maker and he has set the law and it is eternal (not subject to the fashions and cultures of the day).

[WANDERER]

N,

Thankyou for your thoughtful feedback.

RS is an appendage of the priesthood, therefore we are their arms and legs, we are doing priesthood work ,when we obey our RS presidents in doing good works among the church and in our communities

Sorry, but I tend to think.....not an appendage to priesthood, appendages to Christ...Christ is the head...the church is the body...Priests are also appendages...as the Apostle Paul thought of himself. Is this similar to LDS beliefs?

The women of this church are the arms and legs and brains and heart of the work of the priesthood,

Whose body/Whose work? Feet don't rule over hands...lungs don't rule over legs......submit to one another out of reverence to Christ and with respect.... wives to husbands...husbands to wives...women to men (and does that include men to women or does that sound shocking and why?) ..making every effort towards unity and peace as members

Once again, I think this attitude can lead to competition between the sexes. If there is a thought process of sexes competing, this is Satan fueling fire that is not there. It sure is not God’s design to have women and men worry about their role, he is the law maker and he has set the law and it is eternal (not subject to the fashions and cultures of the day

Napaljarra, I don't wish to make you feel under attack ...and I think your heart is in the right place...even if I have singled out some of the things you have said with a question mark (I'm not LDS so I may not understand the terminology or the context of what you are saying). I like the fact that you focus on unity and the importance of teamwork, purpose and love and unity. I thing you have a strong sense of what is right and yes, disunity is a very unproductive thing and not God's teaching. The church must operate as a whole. I agree. Is Christ divided? There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus ...Paul says. Where does the idea of competition come from? Does it have to be that way?

But things are what they are. C'est la vie.

Edited September 18, 2008 by WANDERER

[richlittell]

Even though it's not the point of this thread, I'll continue in this vein.

I never understood all of the hoopla, hullabaloo, and ballyhoo given over the different roles of the sexes.

Men and women are just different. I mean, [edited by me] the most obvious being our physiological difference.

What's so wrong with that, and what's so wrong about one gender having a particular role in God's church and the other a different one? There is nothing demeaning in either role.

Keep in mind, the priesthood is probably the easiest role in the church compared to the role of women.

Also, consider that the Lord's church has been the same throughout time and that our "modern" world is relatively minuscule in time compared to the whole of the human race.

Consider as the Lord contemplated the roles of men and women that he knew that throughout the most of human history, a married woman would spend most of her days encumbered by pregnancy, nursing, or rearing the youngest children.

In our modern age we have birth control and small families. And with today's medical advances, a woman can get by with two healthy pregnancies and stop at that. But that is a modern condition, (and still not attainable in less modern countries today). Even as recent as my grandmother, she had to have seven children so that three could survive. In all of past human history the infant mortality rate was very very high, and even those who survived infanthood often died in childhood. The point of all this being that in the past and even in some countries today, consider the years of pregnancy, nursing and so forth that a woman spent if she had so many children. It would be impossible for her to run a farm or a business or a church. The harvest doesn't wait for the inconvenience of pregnancy and child-rearing and neither do business profits and neither does the Lord's work.

Now, in this modern age, things are a bit different and as long as the parents consider all things in prayer, I think there is a lot more flexibility in how we divvy up our roles. I wouldn't mind if my daughter (or heck, my wife, only it's a little too late for her to go back to school lol) were a brain surgeon. But the Lord's church has done just fine throughout human history with the kinds of roles it has established for men and women and there is enough confusion and sin in today's world than to go mucking around with a system that has worked for the Lord in all this time. And besides, the Lord may have his own reasons for having distinct roles based on gender. Who care? What's the big deal? If the Lord took away my priesthood and asked me to stay home with the kids and be a part of relief society, I'd say yippee!

Families (and we are not talking abut women who opt out of family life or bearing children) are an organization just like anything, and without understood roles chaos would reign. Why? Well consider, how much progress would an organization make if all the people in it acted like they were President? There has to be a system in place when two perfectly intellectual and prayerful individuals come to different conclusions, otherwise, there would be endless debate and contention, which invites the adversary, in the home. Men are stupid and make a lot of stupid mistakes, and we have the priesthood. So what?

I believe that a lot of women are smarter than their husbands, and some day, in the after life they'll get to say "see, I told you so."

Edited September 19, 2008 by richlittell

[WANDERER]

Your kidding right......Rich that's funny....

How exactly do you use your different body parts to support your job role in church ministry?

Quick summary : the reasons are: female plumbing; female plumbing inconveniences work agendas and a total inability for women and men to agree without contention....

Bless ya Rich...we've probably got a bit of a generation gap going cause I'd be out of work if I held any of the above beliefs or used them as an excuse ......and oh my...GenZ is going to be a gulf away from understanding any of that....

Men vs women is from the seventies. We're thirty years ahead of that and trying to work out how to find balance and respect. The thing is we're still pretty much still caught up in the whole crossfire of men vs women. I don't understand the hoopla and ballyhoo over it either...there is nothing gender-defining in the ability to use oil to annoint or in the ability to use oil to cook. If we believe all roles are of equal value...and gender doesn't determine a person's value...then the discussion is pretty much over.

And to the heart of the thread topic:

If the state of things today is a consequence of transgressing rather than a curse...wouldn't it be a good idea to stop transgressing?

[richlittell]

Your kidding right......Rich that's funny....

How exactly do you use your different body parts to support your job role in church ministry?

Quick summary : the reasons are: female plumbing; female plumbing inconveniences work agendas and a total inability for women and men to agree without contention....

Bless ya Rich...we've probably got a bit of a generation gap going cause I'd be out of work if I held any of the above beliefs or used them as an excuse ......and oh my...GenZ is going to be a gulf away from understanding any of that....

Men vs women is from the seventies. We're thirty years ahead of that and trying to work out how to find balance and respect. The thing is we're still pretty much still caught up in the whole crossfire of men vs women. I don't understand the hoopla and ballyhoo over it either...there is nothing gender-defining in the ability to use oil to annoint or in the ability to use oil to cook. If we believe all roles are of equal value...and gender doesn't determine a person's value...then the discussion is pretty much over.

You might be surprised that I agree with you to a large extent. These are different times, and as I said I think we have more flexibility because with modern medical advances women aren't so encumbered by their physiology. If my wife could make a lot more money than me, I'd say go for it and I can be Mr. Mom-- no problem here. And I also said if God saw fit to withdraw the priesthood from man and give it to women, I'd say yippee! Or if he declared them to join the priesthood, I'd say yippee!

But God hasn't done that and it's not difficult to see that women's roles are greatly influenced by their physical limitations of the past (those choosing to have a family and children). And God has not, I guess from your point, caught up with modernity. He's a bit old-fashioned himself, I suppose.

I have a daughter who is so bright I wouldn't be surprised if she were an engineer, nuclear physicist, or neurosurgeon. And I will encourage her to go for all she can, cause I hate to see her talent wasted. But I'll also teach her the principles of the gospel and then leave it to her and her spouse of the future (if she chooses to marry) to work things out for themselves. Regardless of how much I admire the ability of women, it is still Heavenly Father who has given men and women different roles in the church and until he declares otherwise, I'll accept that.

My point was that men and women are just different different different, physiologically, mentally, emotionally, and on so many different levels.

I mean, when is the last time you saw a group of women sitting around watching a football game, drinking beer, belching, slapping each other on the bottom, waving their fists in the air and chanting oo .. oo.. oo.. like a bunch of orangutans. What is it with guys and sports anyway?

We are different, and for now, our roles in certain areas of life are different. I don't see any problems here.

And to the heart of the thread topic:

If the state of things today is a consequence of transgressing rather than a curse...wouldn't it be a good idea to stop transgressing?

not sure what you mean here. My conclusion for that topic was that women aren't punished for Eve's transgression, as men are not for Adam's, but just as men became subject to the fall and must toil and labor, women became subject to the fall and must bear children in the way of Eve.

[WANDERER]

Heh heh...

when is the last time you saw a group of women sitting around watching a football game, drinking beer, belching, slapping each other on the bottom, waving their fists in the air and chanting oo .. oo.. oo.. like a bunch of orangutans.

Don't you do this over there? I have seen female netball and hockey crowds do this...often and frequently and worse than guys. And yep...footy fans of either sex. Admittedly I have also participated : ) . It's quite socially acceptable. I'm in Australia : )))) But currently I only make an effort once a year for State of Origin by pulling out the right colour sweater...because the wrong colour sweater is fatal.

To be honest I see cultural gender differences slipping away between each generation. And I think that the reality is...the gap where women say they are religous but don't actually attend church will just widen for women over time...perhaps to the point of not being religious at all. Because they are told that God likes men to rule over women and have seen the worst of it...there's always someone who takes that to an extreme and uses it as a form of abuse. Are there differences...there are actually differences between men and other men and women and other women...and a great deal of commonality besides...we're not a separate species for goodness sake. Never before have we been more aware of the genetic diversity within humanity...Do we acknowledge individual differences and use them to disclude others...or is that considered offensive?

Mmmmm..I don't think God is all that old-fashioned ......apparently you are allowed your AGENCY. There were females involved in the early church quite actively and Paul's female cousin was an Apostle. There were women present when the early church received the gift of the Holy Spirit...surely God meant them to use it. And women were present on Christ's ministry.

Edited September 19, 2008 by WANDERER

[Justice]

I agree with you rich, and I'll go a bit farther.

I don't have a problem with any female who wants to do a historically male thing. If a female has a good enough arm and has all the physical tools to be a quarteback in the NFL, by all means, let her exercise her talent.

So, I don't have a problem with males or females who like the roles of each and try to stay within those historical roles. But, I also don't have a problem if there are people of one sex who want to excell at what is understood as acceptable for the other sex.

But, we must keep in mind that there are some things that men are just better at than women.

This doesn't mean ALL men are better at a thing than ALL women, which is often how I think some take that statement.

Because, there are some things that women are just better at than men.

However, when you consider the "roles" of men and women in raising a family, typically what has been revealed is best for all. That doesn't mean families can't adjust to meet their needs. It means if we believe we have a prophet who speaks for the Lord then we have to consider his voice as if it is from the Lord. His words are not to take offense to, but to help us be the best we can be, and to give our families the best chance at succeeding.

[bert10]

Hi...When one is deceived there is no choice. In being deceived one is substituting good for evil and evil for good.

1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The Order of the punishment that followed is from the greater to the least..first the Serpent because it had the greater role in the fall. It received the harshest of punishment. Then Eve who allowed herself to be deceived and then Adam who chose to follow Eve received the least of the punishment.

The punishments and the role that God assigned Adam and Eve are really blessings... to help them overcome the weaknesses of their gender. And to ensure the greatest chance for joy and happiness in this world.

However in these last days...It has been rejected and both men and women have chosen evil for good and good for evil thru the philosophies of the world.

Isaiah 3:12 - As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Hello, Rich

I actually think Eve did a wonderful thing in choosing to eat the "forbidden fruit" in the garden of Eden, as there was no other way to bring mankind into mortality. I believe she did well by her choice, as the "Fall of Adam" was so necessary for our growth and development. I think of 2 Nephi 2 and Alma 42, which discuss in detail the necessity of opposition in agency and experiencing the bitter to know the sweet. I am unable to bear children, and would go through oodles of pain just for the experience of bearing and raising children, regardless of their choices growing up. I think sacrifice begets love, especially in raising children! Having pain in the delivery process is a part of our experience of pain in life generally, imo.

Because of Eve's bravery and courage in initiating the process for bringing children and opposition into the world, I believe the patriarchal order to be an eternal and God given order. Although I have struggled with never being able to bear the priesthood myself, and the seeming inequality in this, I cannot deny it's power, and so follow it because I believe it's real. It is mine to fulfill the measure of my creation, as a daughter of God, whatever that may be. :-)

[Dove]

Thank you for the clarification, Bert.

I have oodles of issues with the abuse of priesthood authority, which has crept into my threads here. Sorry!

I have struggled with the attitude towards women generally at times as well.

Yes, I remember that Eve was in "transgression" for taking the forbidden fruit, as she was deceived. I'm still ever so grateful she did it. I was overzealous in my defense of her~I still hope she did it out of bravery and courage. I still don't believe childbirth is punishment for her having taken the forbidden fruit, but rather a natural result of the fall, and the opposition we all go through in this life. This could be my supposition of things, though.

[richlittell]

... I still don't believe childbirth is punishment for her having taken the forbidden fruit, but rather a natural result of the fall, and the opposition we all go through in this life. This could be my supposition of things, though.

I agree.

And I feel for the men who abuse women in the name of the Priesthood. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes on judgement day.

When I first investigated the church, I was taken aback when the men and women separated for their Priesthood and Relief society meetings, being a "modern" man at the time. I told my wife I didn't want to go back. However, in the end, there were just too many things the church taught that I did agree with, and so I prayed about it and, obviously, went back and joined the church.

[WANDERER]

Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church. Does Christ so love the church that He doesn't see fit to ordinate anyone to priesthood?

But Lord, Lord we did all of these things in Your name.

Submit one to another. It's a clear teaching.

But I'll clarify what I see to be clear in that teaching...neither children, nor men, nor women rule over each other...for Christ is the head of the church...just as we are the body of Christ we all work together in unity.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WANDERER

[WANDERER]

Synonym checker:

Transgression: breach, crime, disobedience, error, infraction, infringement, misbehavior, misdeed, offense, sin, trespass, violation, wrongdoing.

Consequence: account, aftereffect, aftermath, cachet, concern, consecution, consideration, effect, end, event, eventuality, fallout, fruit, importance, issue, moment, outcome, payback, prestige, prominence, pursuance, rank, repercussion, result, sequel, sequela, sequence, stature, upshot, weight, worth, punishment.

Curse of Eve = Transgression of Eve ...except curses are really blessings?

The consequence of sin is separation from God, also known as the "curse of God"....how is separation from God a blessing? Good gifts and all that.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WANDERER

[richlittell]

Synonym checker:

Transgression: breach, crime, disobedience, error, infraction, infringement, misbehavior, misdeed, offense, sin, trespass, violation, wrongdoing.

Consequence: account, aftereffect, aftermath, cachet, concern, consecution, consideration, effect, end, event, eventuality, fallout, fruit, importance, issue, moment, outcome, payback, prestige, prominence, pursuance, rank, repercussion, result, sequel, sequela, sequence, stature, upshot, weight, worth, punishment.

Curse of Eve = Transgression of Eve ...except curses are really blessings?

The consequence of sin is separation from God, also known as the "curse of God"....how is separation from God a blessing? Good gifts and all that.

BTW

I never heard such a thing as Paul's female cousin being an apostle. Could you get that reference for me?

In the modern world we may agree that women can take on many roles, and it is their choice what those would be, but our church is a church of revelation led by living prophets, it is not a church of trends. The priesthood was given to men by God through the visitation of Angels who themselves passed on that priesthood. Other churches are free to follow your arguments and open up their priesthood to women, and from a "rational" or "logical" perspective, that would be just fine. But we are not other churches, so no amount of modern sophistry will change the priesthood, only revelation. It may happen someday, it may not, that is up to God and if it should ever change he will reveal it to us through his prophets.

As far as how can curses be blessings, I'll have to get back to you on those scriptures when I have more time. But essentially, Adam and Eve knew not their nakedness and lived in the Garden of Eden not knowing good from evil, having no experienced wisdom--sort of a blissful ignorance. Had they not partaken of the fruit and "fallen" they would still be in the Garden of Eden today not understanding about procreation or anything else, and none of us would be here now. Our scriptures say, Adam fell that men might be, men are that they may have joy.

The fall of Adam and Eve was foreseen by Heavenly Father as part of his plan of salvation for all humankind, and it was a necessary part of that plan.

[WANDERER]

Bert I'm not altogether sure how to respond to you....if women are easily deceived and that is a weakness of their gender then that kind of invalidates any response range I may have from personal thought and feelings to expressing them on a forum post. Perhaps I misunderstand and have missed the intent of your post.

Rich..I'll concede the possible non-existence of Paul's cousin over to you, because the point is that women in the church who took on active roles existed... : ). I've only spent a couple of weeks of spare time pursuing the topic and trying to understand it a bit better so that I can understand different perspectives better (it's not a life issue because it's not something I come across anywhere else except on these forums). The direction of my thinking, well, was the practice similar to the principles involved in the Law of Consecration ...except that it involved people? But I'm still praying, reading, seeking God's will and pondering on that.

I understand the principle of ongoing revelation and obedience to that.

I appreciate your honesty in discussing your beliefs...and I realise that this can be a *tired* topic.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WANDERER

[richlittell]

.....neither children, nor men, nor women rule over each other...for Christ is the head of the church...just as we are the body of Christ we all work together in unity.

True.

I think rule in it's modern sense, which is often equated with the power of a king over his subjects, is not understood that way by LDS. In fact in the church all things are done in council of at least 3 people. We also have family councils. People are appointed to positions of authority as a matter of organization and order, not domination. The same holds for the husband in the home.

Here is a betting understanding of how we approach leadership positions, including husbands, fathers, and mothers.

D&C 121

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; ...

Edited September 20, 2008 by richlittell

[richlittell]

Bert I'm not altogether sure how to respond to you....if women are easily deceived and that is a weakness of their gender then that kind of invalidates any response range I may have from personal thought and feelings to expressing them on a forum post.

I don't remember Bert's post, but I certainly would not agree with that characterization of women, not at all.

[Dove]

D&C 121

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; ...

Hello, everybody!

I've been praying lately, and working through my "issues" with priesthood authority. Wanderer hits on so many of my concerns with this. I come from quite a background (cultural/familial) where I was taught incorrect principals concerning the priesthood.

One result of the fall and atonement combined is the glorious gift of our agency generally, and of my agency as a woman personally. I am so grateful to be in a country where I am not forced to live a certain, or any for that matter, religion. I don't have to be a member of a patriarchal church and I don't have to support the authority of it. I live in a day and age where I can walk away without immediate consequence. Being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is my choice. I choose it with good reason.

My husband and I went to a church social tonight. As I walked through the door of the assembly hall, I felt the comfortings of the Holy Ghost, that His Spirit did reside there. That this church would be where I would find His Spirit.

I talked to some of our priesthood holding friends tonight. I was struck by the demeanour of one of our good friends, the elders chorum president, who is also a convert to the church. Again, the Spirit washed over me, only stronger. He was so kind and humble, giving me a hug, talking awhile, and giving advice on things. I've been ill for the past 3 weeks, and have been getting rather discouraged. I received a priesthood blessing from him and the bishop at the end of the evening, with my husband being there. I offered the opening prayer, and felt overwhelmed with gratitude for the blessings of the priesthood, and the love of God, and a love of them for their service to me. The blessing hit home and I was edified.

Earlier this afternoon, I believe I was being blessed by the Spirit when I realized that I really didn't mind being "subject" to the priesthood authority, it was the abuse of it that was causing me to bridle. I don't mind having a different role, and for the other gender to take the roles of leadership, so long as it is done in the right Spirit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am deciding that before I follow anyone, I can determine for myself, through the Spirit, if what they are saying/doing is of God, or not. I am also deciding that if I see anyone, some leaders included, not following Him, or not following the principals of righteousness in their roles, I do not have to support that person in those things. I even talked to my bishop about this point of view, and he agreed with me, which comforted me.

Like I said in a prior post, I believe I chose my gender at some point. Perhaps we all had much more of a say as to our callings in our lives than we realize. For me, this diffuses the sense that one role is more important, or higher, or whatever, than the other. Also, that to execute the priesthood in it's purest form requires one to be as the Saviour, whose intent was to serve and to love, not to coerce or force, or to be greater than those he was serving.

One thing that has hurt me over the years in my culture, was the feeling that, because of my gender, my feelings/input weren't taken seriously, or with respect. I wasn't treated as an equal. My own mothers taught me to treat men with a special deference, which I no longer agree with. I am so grateful that I can wholeheartedly say I have never felt this from God. Rather, the contrary.

How does this fit in this thread? Oh, the cunning ways of the adversary. While I have my agency, unless I turn myself fully to God, as I know Him, and the atonement of our Saviour, there is no way I will be able to exercise that agency in a manner that will bring me joy. "Adam (Eve) fell that men (women) might be, and men (women) are that they might have joy." I know this through experience.

Thanks for reading :-)

Dove

[bert10]

The FALL.

You are right...all the Evils. the Woes and the Afflictions such as old age, senility, diseases, plagues, accidents...did not exist before the fall.

Though the Apostles reminded us that the Father is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of man and man is the head of women....there is one crucial thing that is not in the Scriptures...it was taught in the beginning...

Is that one of the things that the husband is responsible and accountable to God for...is the HAPPINESS of His Family. That should put a stopper in any unrighteous use of authority. To fail in one part of the marriage covenant is to fail them all.

The laws God gave for both men and women if lived with Unconditional love - Satan will be rendered powerless against such marriages.

All is GOOD....including the fall.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Thank you for the clarification, Bert.

I have oodles of issues with the abuse of priesthood authority, which has crept into my threads here. Sorry!

I have struggled with the attitude towards women generally at times as well.

Yes, I remember that Eve was in "transgression" for taking the forbidden fruit, as she was deceived. I'm still ever so grateful she did it. I was overzealous in my defense of her~I still hope she did it out of bravery and courage. I still don't believe childbirth is punishment for her having taken the forbidden fruit, but rather a natural result of the fall, and the opposition we all go through in this life. This could be my supposition of things, though.

[bert10]

1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Both man and woman have weaknesses and strengths due to their particular gender. When they Marry they become One flesh. Ideally the Strengths and the weakness each has should complement each other. I do not wish to argue about this...this is the way it is.

And in Genesis God set the order of authority for a reason. Because it is the way it is suppose to work while we live in the fallen world. Like I said there is really nothing to talk about. God has already said it all in the OT and again by His Apostles in the NT.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I don't remember Bert's post, but I certainly would not agree with that characterization of women, not at all.

[WANDERER]

Thankyou Dove...I think that is very good advice. I choose joy. Anything that sucks that out of my life is not something I should be giving time to.

[Justice]

You know, Dove, the thought that came to me, for some reason, while I read your post is the catch 22 that comes with our agency. Yes, we are given agency, and that allows us to do, choose, or follow whatever, or whomever we desire. But, the ultimate point of being given agency is to give it up.

Here are 3 powerful examples, from 3 very different times, of what I'm saying:

The Mighty Jehova in the pre-mortal existance, showing us, in the first estate, the very purpose for being given agency:

Moses 4:

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

In the greatest moment of mortal suffering and trial, Here is His shining example yet again:

Matt. 26:

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Then, in modern revelation, through a modern prophet, we hear His example again in the form of instruction, and what we must do to follow His great example:

D&C 109:

44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours.

In order to truly be free, the choice we must make is to give up our agency completely and totally to do His will.

It seems like an oxymoron. But, as you study the scriptures and look for this principle it will stand out like a sore thumb.

I'm not exactly why I shared this with you, but I hope you will get some use out of it.

[Justice]

1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Both man and woman have weaknesses and strengths due to their particular gender.

Eve's "strength" was her desire to have offspring.

Adam's "strength" was his desire to remain with Eve.

You can call them weaknesses if you like, but I say they are strengths.

This is proof that Satan knows each of us and can use our greatest "strengths" against us to tempt us. This is also proof of just how smart and resourceful He is.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Justice

[WANDERER]

How about Bert give up his agency and submit to selflessness and Dove realise her weaknesses are her greatest strengths? Just a thought : )

[Nappaljarri]

///RS is an appendage of the priesthood, therefore we are their arms and legs, we are doing priesthood work ,when we obey our RS presidents in doing good works among the church and in our communities

Sorry, but I tend to think.....not an appendage to priesthood, appendages to Christ...Christ is the head...the church is the body...Priests are also appendages...as the Apostle Paul thought of himself. Is this similar to LDS beliefs? ///

Yes Wanderer, you are thinking along the same lines as what LDS belief is. We believe that this is Christ's church, and because he is not physically here, his priesthood holders represent him (and all members really, but the priesthood holders are the ones who officiate his priesthood power). So when I say arms and legs of priesthood, I am talking about arms and legs of Christ's church (I say arms and legs in analogy, as women "do" so much, not saying that men don't). And Christ is the head, the ruler of the body. I hope that idea helps.

///The women of this church are the arms and legs and brains and heart of the work of the priesthood,

Whose body/Whose work? Feet don't rule over hands...lungs don't rule over legs......submit to one another out of reverence to Christ and with respect.... wives to husbands...husbands to wives...women to men (and does that include men to women or does that sound shocking and why?) ..making every effort towards unity and peace as members ///

Again, looking at the previous paragraph I just said, Christ is the head of the church. All other parts of the body (church) submit to him. BUT, the family unit is not the church. The family unit also is similar in some aspects and not in others. The mother and father are the leader of the home. The work as one unit to lead and guide and teach and love their children. The father is the priesthood holder and patriach of the home, the mother is the bearer and lover of the home and together as one head, they exersise dominion in that stewardship. Church leaders have no say in telling husbands and wives how to lead their lives, they can only teach and exhaut and give interviews for temple recommends to enter the Lord's Holy Houses to re-invergerate the eternal bond they have and link themselves with God in worship therein.

Don't worry wanderer, I did not think that you were attacking at all..:)

By the way, does anyone have issues with coming on this site now and then. I have just had 3 days without access... don't know why??

[WANDERER]

Junia Junia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No, I have only ever had one time where I couldn't log on and that was because the site was down.

Nappaljarri...well one person doesn't think so LOL.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WANDERER