candyprpl Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 And what if you're wrong and are going to be sent to some other religion's Hell? As you say, eternity is a long time. No matter what religious beliefs you hold, the majority of the world disagrees with you.Did you know there is even an area of the world that is mostly atheist? They seem to do quite well too. Not that I'd move there, but it is interesting from a sociological perspective and examining the question of whether religion is needed for a society to function and even thrive.Check it out.I'm not being contentious, please understand that. You seem to be very defensive when it comes to being happy and being atheist. I'm just trying to understand. I accept your point of view, honest.I love sociology -- it's helped me to understand that my way of doing things is not always the only way. Where is the 'area of the world that is mostly atheist'?:) (edit) sorry missed the article link, checking it out now.I came from a religion that thought I was going to Hell -- that's why I gave up on religion for a while. I'm glad to have found the truth, is all I can say.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 And what if you're wrong and are going to be sent to some other religion's Hell? As you say, eternity is a long time. No matter what religious beliefs you hold, the majority of the world disagrees with you.Did you know there is even an area of the world that is mostly atheist? They seem to do quite well too. Not that I'd move there, but it is interesting from a sociological perspective and examining the question of whether religion is needed for a society to function and even thrive.Check it out.Well, this gets muddy for me. For starters, definitions of happiness and success may vary with each culture. And I don't think there is any doubt that man can survive and "succeed" without religion. Religion isn't always, but should be taking man to a place he cannot achieve on his own. I think that is the basic point of the gospel of Jesus Christ.And I wanted to say too, that in my reading and listening to others who study more than me, that it appears that there are some common denominators with regards to prosocial behavior and I think that sort of truth can be found outside of religion too. I would argue that truth can and absolutely can be found outside of religion. And if a person chooses the way of happiness whether they believe in a god or not is immaterial because it is obedience to that truth that brings the happy. I don't think a person needs religion to better themselves, or to grow and evolve into a better, more refined individual. So, in this way, I agree that belief in God alone is not essential to living life happily and living in a prosocial way. BUT, with regards to the agnostic or atheist paradigms, I see them as very limited in terms of human progression. It appears that you all are very satisfied with what it does offer. I am just not sure that would satisfy all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 (this is in addition to my last post.) And.....to tell you the truth, I don't believe that people WITHOUT some sort of moral law, would always behave in a moral or happiness producing manner. I think that in general, mankind is pretty darn awful to each other and to the self. Not to mention our ever present ability to justify ourselves and lie ourselves into believing that corruption is happiness and taking care of number one brings joy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 PS. I just read that article DS. Wonderful food for thought! I may have to chew on it for a bit and give an answer later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 BUT, with regards to the agnostic or atheist paradigms, I see them as very limited in terms of human progression. It appears that you all are very satisfied with what it does offer. I am just not sure that would satisfy all of us.I know you disagree, but IMHO that is because you were raised in a society that teaches us that we need religion to satisfy us. And.....to tell you the truth, I don't believe that people WITHOUT some sort of moral law, would always behave in a moral or happiness producing manner. I think that in general, mankind is pretty darn awful to each other and to the self. Not to mention our ever present ability to justify ourselves and lie ourselves into believing that corruption is happiness and taking care of number one brings joy.That is why governments and sets of laws emerged. I would also like to point out that that ever present ability to justify ourselves is just as present whether you believe in a religion or not... how many people have been killed in God's name? (ironically a God that stated "though shalt not kill.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I know you disagree, but IMHO that is because you were raised in a society that teaches us that we need religion to satisfy us. That is why governments and sets of laws emerged. I would also like to point out that that ever present ability to justify ourselves is just as present whether you believe in a religion or not... how many people have been killed in God's name? (ironically a God that stated "though shalt not kill.")Well, there is no doubt that I come from church land and you don't. I struggle though to see how that in and of itself is a determiner of whether or not my perspective is true or false. It speaks only to my culture, not the workings of my mind and conscience.I mean are you only a robot produced from your experience? I agree with your next assessment but argue the same point. Because someone chooses to use religion as part of a campaign for selfish agenda, it is as wrong as anything. The fact that religion was a player was convenient and NOT an indicator of the truthfullness of the religious doctrine present in that culture. Keep in mind too.....religion can do nothing for the soul until it gets into the soul. Just knowing about love doesn't necessarily make a person loving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I'm not being contentious, please understand that. You seem to be very defensive when it comes to being happy and being atheist. I'm just trying to understand. I accept your point of view, honest.I love sociology -- it's helped me to understand that my way of doing things is not always the only way. Where is the 'area of the world that is mostly atheist'?:) (edit) sorry missed the article link, checking it out now.I came from a religion that thought I was going to Hell -- that's why I gave up on religion for a while. I'm glad to have found the truth, is all I can say.:)I can tell that you're not being contentious and I don't mind you asking at all. Let me ask you a question first though. Would you (or most people here) not feel defensive if someone asked "How can you possibly be happy and lead a good life if you are a Mormon?" I think it is a natural reaction when people claim that your world view is not only false, but unhealthy and impossible to be happy with.I try not to get too defensive because I know it can lead to a lot of contention, but I do still want people to at least understand my viewpoint, and hopefully even respect it as I respect their viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyprpl Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I read the article -- not convinced that it's because they are atheist that Scandanavians are the people they are. There are other countries that have lower crime rates and social problems than the US and Europe and they have Christianity. A sociology professor of mine always warned us to not believe everyone elses point of view. Anyone can do research and have their opinion confirmed. I would be interested if this sociologist interviewed any of the 20,000 Scandanavian LDS that live in Sweden and Denmark. By the end of 1990, the LDS Church had over 20,000 members in seven stakes and 119 wards and branches throughout Scandanavia, served by a Temple in Vasterhaminge, Sweden. My sociology professor talked a lot about Sweden and Denmark and has visited there a lot -- he pointed out that if you like a Socialist Party kind of country, then you will probably like it there. He also pointed out that the same things that this other sociologist pointed out. It may work for some, but not me -- I don't want the legal use of drugs and prostitution where I live. Maybe if I was born and raised there I would have a different understanding. Our country has so many different cultures trying to live together, therein lies the difficulty. P.S. My nephew served his mission in Sweden -- loved the people and had wonderful conversations with all. I remember him telling us how welcomed he felt. Maybe that's our problem here in America, we don't welcome other points of view.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) Well, there is no doubt that I come from church land and you don't. I struggle though to see how that in and of itself is a determiner of whether or not my perspective is true or false. It speaks only to my culture, not the workings of my mind and conscience.I'm not just talking about where specifically either of us grew up, I'm talking about the culture of this country in general. It has nothing to do with whether your perspective is true or false. All I'm saying is that if you grew up in somewhere like Scandinavia, you could very well be just as happy and thankful for your world view and IMHO the only reason you can't imagine it now is because of the culture here.I mean are you only a robot produced from your experience?I never said that. I do think that the environment around you can shape the way that you think, especially about religion, but of course you are still you and there is no telling exactly how external influences will change your outlook on things. Edited October 23, 2008 by DigitalShadow messed up the quotes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyprpl Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I can tell that you're not being contentious and I don't mind you asking at all. Let me ask you a question first though. Would you (or most people here) not feel defensive if someone asked "How can you possibly be happy and lead a good life if you are a Mormon?" I think it is a natural reaction when people claim that your world view is not only false, but unhealthy and impossible to be happy with.I try not to get too defensive because I know it can lead to a lot of contention, but I do still want people to at least understand my viewpoint, and hopefully even respect it as I respect their viewpoint.No doubt I can get defensive -- not really about being Mormon -- my sisters were Mormon 30 years before me and I always thought they were kind of wierd but was happy that they found something that made them so happy:lol: So now I don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to being teased about being Mormon.I really hate contention and confrontations -- even in my youth -- I was one to just walk away rather than..... but when someone is determined to get me fighting then I get defensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 The main beef that I've always had with religion is that puts so much emphasis on an intangible afterlife and expects followers to live a certain way for the sake of that afterlife. I'd much rather live for this life than focus on an uncertain state of existence that might greet me when I die. What if you're wrong? Wouldn't it be depressing to think that you've wasted your entire life living for an eternal reward that doesn't exist rather than spending that time enjoying the life you had? What makes you think that a true Christian would live an unhappy or unfulfilled life? I submit that you can live the Gospel and still be quite happy. In fact, it has been shown time and again that wickedness is not happiness. Pleasures of the flesh do not equate true happiness, they are momentary 'fixes'. If there is nothing after this life, is the world worse off because someone lived a truly Christian life? Are you really worse off just because your neighbor chooses to live a Christian life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) I read the article -- not convinced that it's because they are atheist that Scandanavians are the people they are. There are other countries that have lower crime rates and social problems than the US and Europe and they have Christianity. A sociology professor of mine always warned us to not believe everyone elses point of view. Anyone can do research and have their opinion confirmed.I would be interested if this sociologist interviewed any of the 20,000 Scandanavian LDS that live in Sweden and Denmark.By the end of 1990, the LDS Church had over 20,000 members in seven stakes and 119 wards and branches throughout Scandanavia, served by a Temple in Vasterhaminge, Sweden.My sociology professor talked a lot about Sweden and Denmark and has visited there a lot -- he pointed out that if you like a Socialist Party kind of country, then you will probably like it there. He also pointed out that the same things that this other sociologist pointed out. It may work for some, but not me -- I don't want the legal use of drugs and prostitution where I live. Maybe if I was born and raised there I would have a different understanding. Our country has so many different cultures trying to live together, therein lies the difficulty.P.S. My nephew served his mission in Sweden -- loved the people and had wonderful conversations with all. I remember him telling us how welcomed he felt. Maybe that's our problem here in America, we don't welcome other points of view.:)I never claimed atheism is the only way for a society to thrive, just that it is possible for an atheist society (willing atheism, not forced) to thrive. The article was never meant to "convince" you of anything, it was merely food for thought. I don't fully agree with the politics of the country either, but it is interesting none the less. Also, while 20,000 may sound like a big number keep in mind that it is only 0.13% of the population of those two countries. I don't see how that would be significant when talking about the majority of society there. Edited October 23, 2008 by DigitalShadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyprpl Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I never claimed atheism is the only way for a society to thrive, just that it is possible for an atheist society (willing atheism, not forced) to thrive. The article was never meant to "convince" you of anything, it was merely food for thought. I don't fully agree with the politics of the country either, but it is interesting none the less. Also, while 20,000 may sound like a big number keep in mind that it is only 0.13% of the population of those two countries. I don't see how that would be significant when talking about the majority of society there.Just to clarify -- I didn't say those were your claims -- I said the claims of the researcher said that. I know that it's not a big number and it may not be significant when talking about the majority of the society there -- I just seem to think that if you're going to make research reliable, ALL aspects of a society need to be taken into play. Now having said that, the article was about what this researcher found and wrote in his book and not having read the book, it would be unfair to stand by this point of view.Food for thought -- it did make me think and that's why I commented the way I commented.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfish Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) I can tell that you're not being contentious and I don't mind you asking at all. Let me ask you a question first though. Would you (or most people here) not feel defensive if someone asked "How can you possibly be happy and lead a good life if you are a Mormon?" I think it is a natural reaction when people claim that your world view is not only false, but unhealthy and impossible to be happy with.Oh my goodness, no. I live out in the "mission field". I live with this all the time and I feel absolutely no defensiveness, as long as people aren't rude. In fact I'd probably see it as an opportunity to tell about how it IS possible! I am thoroughly surprised if someone of another faith DOESN'T wonder this about us. What I don't understand is when other religions are offended that we claim to be the only true religion. Don't they feel the same about their religion? It doesn't offend me that the Catholics believe theirs is the one and only. Good for them! Atheists think we are wrong; we think they are wrong. Why be offended or defensive? I don't understand that at all. I try not to get too defensive because I know it can lead to a lot of contention, but I do still want people to at least understand my viewpoint, and hopefully even respect it as I respect their viewpoint.I agree. Edited October 23, 2008 by Starfish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Just to clarify -- I didn't say those were your claims -- I said the claims of the researcher said that. I know that it's not a big number and it may not be significant when talking about the majority of the society there -- I just seem to think that if you're going to make research reliable, ALL aspects of a society need to be taken into play. Now having said that, the article was about what this researcher found and wrote in his book and not having read the book, it would be unfair to stand by this point of view.Food for thought -- it did make me think and that's why I commented the way I commented.:)Yeah, I reread your post and was going to go back and change mine but I figured it was probably too late.I haven't read the book yet either, but I was thinking about buying it. To me, what is interesting is not the percentages of atheists or Christians or Mormons, but the way religion is culturally thought of and quite honestly until I read that article a few days ago I had no clue a place like that even exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyprpl Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 :offtopic:It is interesting -- I do love sociology! I wish I had finished my degree. I was studying all this when I was a professed Agnostic and it made me think a lot about people and differences. I love studying about other cultures and their histories.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Oh my goodness, no. I live out in the "mission field". I live with this all the time and I feel absolutely no defensiveness, as long as people aren't rude. I am thoroughly surprised if someone of another faith DOESN'T wonder this about us. What I don't understand is when other religions are offended that we claim to be the only true religion. Don't they feel the same about their religion? It doesn't offend me that the Catholics believe theirs is the one and only. Good for them! Atheists think we are wrong; we think they are wrong. Why be offended or defensive? I don't understand that at all.It is the same reason you suddenly got so defensive about your conservatism even though I didn't even mention it. Sometimes it is just a natural reaction when you are accustomed to people attacking you for something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I'm not just talking about where specifically either of us grew up, I'm talking about the culture of this country in general. It has nothing to do with whether your perspective is true or false. All I'm saying is that if you grew up in somewhere like Scandinavia, you could very well be just as happy and thankful for your world view and IMHO the only reason you can't imagine it now is because of the culture here.I never said that. I do think that the environment around you can shape the way that you think, especially about religion, but of course you are still you and there is no telling exactly how external influences will change your outlook on things.Oh ok. I think I can see better what you are saying. Yes, the US is a religious country -- something that is sometimes problematic. I guess I am fuzzy with regards to your view. Are saying that belief in God leads to unrest and crimes against humanity or are you agreeing with me and speaking to human nature. And with regards to Scandinavia, I don't really know how I would feel if I was raised there. I might be happy and thankful...and I might be thankful but empty and spiritually hungry for something more. And I say that because I know myself and I have been spiritually hungry in the presence of a religious smorgousborg! (yeah, i don't know how to spell that word.)And I think the article is compelling, but I want to ask more questions about history and if there were any factors leading to the common atheist position. I know that in Germany, many can't believe in God because of the awful things they saw and experienced in the wars. I just think that it is impossible to determine that because one group appears happy that they truly are, and impossible to condemn other groups because they are religious and appear in a state of unrest. The US is religious. But I think the source of our problems is more related to our obedience to what we know is true. The success or failure of religion depends on first, the truthfulness of that particular message and second, on the choices of the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfish Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 It is the same reason you suddenly got so defensive about your conservatism even though I didn't even mention it. Sometimes it is just a natural reaction when you are accustomed to people attacking you for something.I'm confused by your post, so I reread my old posts to see where I got defensive. Still confused, but never mind. If I came across as defensive somewhere, I apologize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Oh ok. I think I can see better what you are saying. Yes, the US is a religious country -- something that is sometimes problematic. I guess I am fuzzy with regards to your view. Are saying that belief in God leads to unrest and crimes against humanity or are you agreeing with me and speaking to human nature.What I'm saying is that atheism doesn't lead to crimes or unrest any more than belief in God does. It is a part of human nature and generally unchanged with religious beliefs. The reason I brought up Scandinavia is that many people (probably even some here) believe that without religion society would completely fall apart and I recently found out that there is a very good example that says that it is not the case.And I think the article is compelling, but I want to ask more questions about history and if there were any factors leading to the common atheist position. I know that in Germany, many can't believe in God because of the awful things they saw and experienced in the wars. I just think that it is impossible to determine that because one group appears happy that they truly are, and impossible to condemn other groups because they are religious and appear in a state of unrest. The US is religious. But I think the source of our problems is more related to our obedience to what we know is true. The success or failure of religion depends on first, the truthfulness of that particular message and second, on the choices of the people.I think that the point of the book is not to attribute or condemn, but to challenge some of the "conventional wisdom" about society's relationship with religion. I'll probably end up buying the book at some point, you can borrow it when I'm done if you want :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 That is why governments and sets of laws emerged.Yes. This is what governments do. But in the history of the world, tell me how many have been successful? And I mean "for the people" kind of successful. How many have been free from power hungry agenda and corruption? And how have such law making efforts truly changed the hearts of the people to act from personal moral commitment rather than public fear?Laws don't change hearts. They don't reform people. They simple keep the sheep within the gate and punish them when the go out.... and even on that score they often fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I'm confused by your post, so I reread my old posts to see where I got defensive. Still confused, but never mind. If I came across as defensive somewhere, I apologize.I read this as being defensive:I have a question about the accusation of "hate". We, of the conservative leaning, are accused of hating all the time. We hate homosexuals. We hate liberals. We hate blacks. We hate abortionists. We hate sinners. On and on.Unfortunately over the internet it is incredibly hard to tell intent without tone of voice, facial expression or gestures, so it was probably just a misunderstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Yes. This is what governments do. But in the history of the world, tell me how many have been successful? And I mean "for the people" kind of successful. How many have been free from power hungry agenda and corruption? And how have such law making efforts truly changed the hearts of the people to act from personal moral commitment rather than public fear?Laws don't change hearts. They don't reform people. They simple keep the sheep within the gate and punish them when the go out.... and even on that score they often fail.How many religions are free from corruption? How many "holy wars" have been waged throughout history? Yes, governments can be abused and corrupted just like any other institution, including religions, what is the point?Do religions not also keep people in line with rewards and fear of punishment? Just because someone decides they want a happy afterlife doesn't mean they are any more reformed than someone who decides they don't want to go to jail again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfish Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I read this as being defensive:Unfortunately over the internet it is incredibly hard to tell intent without tone of voice, facial expression or gestures, so it was probably just a misunderstanding.You are completely right about communicating online. It's hard! My post included examples of what conservatives are accused of being, and how for me, it's just not true. I'm sure I've misinterpreted other's meanings also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfish Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 What I'm saying is that atheism doesn't lead to crimes or unrest any more than belief in God does. It is a part of human nature and generally unchanged with religious beliefs.Here are some quotes by various founders of our nation who felt religion was important in society.John Adams"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] Benjamin Franklin“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 Thomas Jefferson“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”James Madison“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.” George Washington“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.