One Global Faith -- Is It Possible?

[DigitalShadow]

I really didn't mean to be condescending and I worried you'd take it that way. Not really understanding the Gospel is not an insult. Most of us don't fully understand it. I've spend many years increasing my understanding and have a long way to go.

Forcing anyone to be LDS is pointless. But we are responsible to teach our children truth after which they do have agency to accept or reject it.

No you don't really understand it. How could you? You've never been a member--or maybe you have--I don't know. You've never been to the temple? Have you read and reread the scriptures and prayed for understanding? Have you listened to every word in General Conference and applied it to your life? I'm not judging you, just pointing out that you can't expect to really understand the Gospel/Plan of Salvation without a lifetime of study.

I've been studying the Gospel for decades and continue to learn new things. And I continue to learn how much I DON'T know. We learn bit by bit. But I have learned enough that I know we are better with the Gospel than without. I've seen how it changes people for the better. I've experienced the blessings.

So to say it doesn't matter if your children embrace the Gospel or not, says you don't really know what life is like with it, very well.

Oh, btw, the statement "good little LDS members" is a bit condescending.

I don't care if you think I don't understand the Gospel, what I found truly condescending and insulting was your implicit assumption that LDS members is inherently better than being non-members and the non-member fathers you were talking about should bear some type of guilt for leading their poor children astray.

I have no trouble agreeing to disagree on spiritual matters, but I will not stand for you implying that my future children are worse off for having me as a father because I am not a member. I apologize if that is not the way you meant it, but that is certainly how it sounded.

[applepansy]

After reading all 13 pages of this thread one thing has stuck in my head and has been confirmed. My grandfather used to say it whenever there was s discussion without end.

"A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinioni still"

I've appreaciated many of the comments made here. . . thanks for an interesting discussion to read. It has confirmed my faith.

Love you all,

applepansy

[john doe]

I'm beginning to think this thread has just about outrun its usefulness. People are talking past each other with no acknowledgement of the opposing view.

[Islander]

I thought God wanted all his children to know him, including those with a distinctly skeptical and scientific nature?

Keep in mind that it also takes humility to consider that your own religious beliefs may be wrong. Your statement reads like: "It takes humility to realize that my views are absolutely right." Can you not see the irony in that?

You clearly misrepresent what I said. I made a qualified statement of fact and it was intended to be interpreted as a standard procedure that applies to ALL. I was not directing it to you, specifically. There is NO other way to to receive a witness and awareness of the existence of God. In fact, you do not have to convert to the LDS Church to experience such. I did, and then it took seven more years to find the church.

My friend, that is the beauty of agency. You are free to believe or not, to struggle, to antagonize and certainly do what you will and you will never hear a word from my mouth about your choices. Since you alluded to logic, empirical evidence and proof, I simply pointed to the fact that your frame of reference is better suited for the study of physical sciences. Such may present to you appealing, tangible evidence of the experimental archetypes you desire to be satisfied of the presence/existence of deity.

[Misshalfway]

I thought God wanted all his children to know him, including those with a distinctly skeptical and scientific nature?

Keep in mind that it also takes humility to consider that your own religious beliefs may be wrong. Your statement reads like: "It takes humility to realize that my views are absolutely right." Can you not see the irony in that?

I actually think that this is a really good point.

I can only speak from my personal experience, but this is literally what I have been doing these last two years with the LDS doctrine. I have questioned every corner of it.....even gotten angry at some parts of it. I have argued with the scriptures and the lessons at church in the quietness of my own brain. I have actually for a time walked away from it and attempted to try on other ways of thinking and other religious and non religious points of view. It has been a relatively slow process, but most of the doctrines of the church, even the fundamental ones like Jesus Christ ( heck, I went to town on that one) have come back to me in a small range of spiritual confirmations. I feel like at one point when I was starting to know it was true again, I stopped and was kinda angry. I was like "dang, now I have to follow." And then I kinda laughed inside myself and started taking steps of increased obedience. I still have a long way to go...which is probably more than obvious.......But now I do know. Can't deny it. Can't walk away from it. I must take up my cross, as they say.

I don't know exactly why it is that this world isn't coming to a unity of the faith yet. I have some ideas. I guess I hand that issue to God in trust. As I consider how few in the course of the history of this earth have really come to a knowledge of even the Savior, I have to believe that perhaps there is some wise purpose to it all. I do know this.....I have been greatly blessed by speaking to people with views that are different from my own. I know I stumble over my own self-righteousness and blindness at times. I sincerely hope I haven't crossed that line in this conversation, as I dearly enjoy all involved.

I do think that God has different purposes for all of us and wonder at the timing of when he opens our eyes to help us see. I can't know about all of it. But, I thank folks like DS who are at least open to the discussions and who are patient with sometimes ignorant or insensitive perspectives. I also hope that those who don't believe understand and have the ability to acknowledge there might be some perspectives they don't see so clearly either.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Misshalfway
one more thought....

[Guest Godless]

I have no trouble agreeing to disagree on spiritual matters, but I will not stand for you implying that my future children are worse off for having me as a father because I am not a member. I apologize if that is not the way you meant it, but that is certainly how it sounded.

It sounded that way to me as well. FYI, I was born and raised in the LDS church to very devoutly mormon parents, both converts. My falling away had nothing to do with my upbringing and everything to do with my own doubts and objective thinking. I do, however, know a few apostates who fell away due to their upbringing by very devout and orthodox LDS parents. The gospel and doctrines that you take so much pride in can be very oppressive in the hands of those who are unwilling to accept the free will and independent thought of their children. I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread (or perhaps a different one) how my own parents' belief in eternal family cohesion greatly damaged my relationship with them for a while. That being said, I'm not naive. I know that there are many LDS couples who completely respect the paths that their children take, even if they don't agree with them. Everyone, members and non, take different approaches to parenting. Likewise. children have their own will and agency to choose their own paths as they grow and begin to try to make sense of the world.

[Starfish]

I'm trying to understand the differing points of view here and not come across as judgemental.

If the Gospel, as taught in the LDS Church, is true, then we all need it. It gives us the plan to return to our Father in Heaven. There is only one way. That said, I didn't mean that LDS people are better than anyone else--though I can see how I implied that. I should have said that LDS people are better off in that they have the truth. However, we will be judged by what we have been taught and this puts most LDS people in a position of stricter judgement, meaning more will be expected of us.

Again, if the Gospel is true, then we ALL need it--your children, my children, their children, etc.

[Hemidakota]

I guess that's going off on a bit of a tangent though. I brought it up because the last part of your statement somewhat reminded me of that line of thinking:

My thought is that every action could come with a price depending on what religion (if any) turns out to be true.

If you are referring to faith of being that price, this is not the case. The price, I was referring too, are those visions and dreams that are given to members who are called to the Church of the First Born. The faith now becomes knowledge for that individual, witnessing it for themselves. Now, it does come with a heavy penalty if one later does not live what was given and whom refuses to repent.

True, negative actions could come with a price in any religion.

[DigitalShadow]

You clearly misrepresent what I said. I made a qualified statement of fact and it was intended to be interpreted as a standard procedure that applies to ALL. I was not directing it to you, specifically. There is NO other way to to receive a witness and awareness of the existence of God. In fact, you do not have to convert to the LDS Church to experience such. I did, and then it took seven more years to find the church.

My friend, that is the beauty of agency. You are free to believe or not, to struggle, to antagonize and certainly do what you will and you will never hear a word from my mouth about your choices. Since you alluded to logic, empirical evidence and proof, I simply pointed to the fact that your frame of reference is better suited for the study of physical sciences. Such may present to you appealing, tangible evidence of the experimental archetypes you desire to be satisfied of the presence/existence of deity.

I'm sorry if that is not what you meant. It's just that I have been told many times that I simply need to have more humility to receieve a witness which I find ironic coming from people who claim to know for certain the word of God and are unwilling to entertain any other possibilities.

I do use my logic in my career as a software developer quite a bit, it serves me well :)

[DigitalShadow]

I think you missed the point - if logic is not a part of the order in the universe then the use of logic to understand the universe is counter productive. Therefore, if you do not believe in order by logic - why use logic to try to understand an assumed order - this plays to an event horizon or what follows.

Even Chaos Theory implies that the introduction of logic to a system that is not order by logic will skew the results. As I said before - I am not willing to abandon logic. Why would you employ ordered logic to a system you believe is not ordered by logic? I just do not see the logic in that.

The Traveler

Trying to parse your post gave me a bit of a headache. Perhaps we should start a new thread about this since we have gotten quite off topic?

[DigitalShadow]

If you are referring to faith of being that price, this is not the case. The price, I was referring too, are those visions and dreams that are given to members who are called to the Church of the First Born. The faith now becomes knowledge for that individual, witnessing it for themselves. Now, it does come with a heavy penalty if one later does not live what was given and whom refuses to repent.

True, negative actions could come with a price in any religion.

Ahhh... thank you for clarifying :)

[DigitalShadow]

I'm trying to understand the differing points of view here and not come across as judgemental.

If the Gospel, as taught in the LDS Church, is true, then we all need it. It gives us the plan to return to our Father in Heaven. There is only one way. That said, I didn't mean that LDS people are better than anyone else--though I can see how I implied that. I should have said that LDS people are better off in that they have the truth. However, we will be judged by what we have been taught and this puts most LDS people in a position of stricter judgement, meaning more will be expected of us.

Again, if the Gospel is true, then we ALL need it--your children, my children, their children, etc.

This is not meant to be mean, and if it is not the case feel free to ignore it, but if you don't want to come across as judgemental, then simply don't judge people for not being a part of the church. Not everyone has felt the spirit in the same way or been raised in the church or had life changing experiences bringing to them to the church. That doesn't say anything about them other than that they don't share your beliefs.

Hypothetical question, but what if the Gospel is not true? Have you ever even considered that possibility? Only a fraction of a percent of the world's population agree with you and many have VERY different views on the way to ensure a happy afterlife. I don't think that there is enough evidence to claim for certain (for anyone but yourself) what the one true religion is and even according to your own religion children have the free agency to choose whatever religion they want. Isn't that the entire point of our mortal test? to come to the church of our own free will, not simply to be forced or guilted into it by our parents? If we were meant to have the Gospel imposed on us, wouldn't God simply do it himself?

[Starfish]

Hypothetical question, but what if the Gospel is not true? Have you ever even considered that possibility? Only a fraction of a percent of the world's population agree with you and many have VERY different views on the way to ensure a happy afterlife. I don't think that there is enough evidence to claim for certain (for anyone but yourself) what the one true religion is and even according to your own religion children have the free agency to choose whatever religion they want. Isn't that the entire point of our mortal test? to come to the church of our own free will, not simply to be forced or guilted into it by our parents? If we were meant to have the Gospel imposed on us, wouldn't God simply do it himself?

I've asked myself that question many times. Then I remember all the evidences that I've received to its truthfulness. I remember the answers to my prayers; some have been miracles and undeniable. I look for the logic of the Gospel and logical, it is. I continue to discover new parts of the puzzle that fit in perfectly.

But a lot of it is simply good ol' faith. I choose to believe it because I am completely convinced after all these years, that my life is better with it.

[DigitalShadow]

I've asked myself that question many times. Then I remember all the evidences that I've received to its truthfulness. I remember the answers to my prayers; some have been miracles and undeniable. I look for the logic of the Gospel and logical, it is. I continue to discover new parts of the puzzle that fit in perfectly.

But a lot of it is simply good ol' faith. I choose to believe it because I am completely convinced after all these years, that my life is better with it.

I don't doubt that your life is better because of your belief and that you have personally experienced undeniable miracles confirming your belief, but I also don't doubt that other people have also had undeniable miracles supporting their own differing belief. That is why I say that religion is a personal choice because your personal experiences are the only things that can "prove" a religion to you and those experiences are different for different people.

[Misshalfway]

Hypothetical question, but what if the Gospel is not true? Have you ever even considered that possibility?

Do you honestly believe that most LDS people haven't asked these questions?? Don't you think with all of the flack we experience that we would continue in our course without such vital questioning?

Sometimes I think DS that you greatly underestimate the LDS people and what it really takes to gain and maintain a testimony.

That is why I say that religion is a personal choice because your personal experiences are the only things that can "prove" a religion to you and those experiences are different for different people.

This is the inherent disadvantage to religious truth and also, and maybe more importantly, the beauty of it. And I think another piece that it is important to identify here is that truth comes first. Church is just an earthly too we use to get the work done.

[HiJolly]

Do you honestly believe that most LDS people haven't asked these questions?? Don't you think with all of the flack we experience that we would continue in our course without such vital questioning?

Sometimes I think DS that you greatly underestimate the LDS people and what it really takes to gain and maintain a testimony.

I don't know if DS is underestimating anything or not, but I REALLY liked your response! You go, Girl!!

DS: That is why I say that religion is a personal choice because your personal experiences are the only things that can "prove" a religion to you and those experiences are different for different people.

This is the inherent disadvantage to religious truth and also, and maybe more importantly, the beauty of it. And I think another piece that it is important to identify here is that truth comes first. Church is just an earthly too[l] we use to get the work done.

Yes, indeed. And I've spent a lot of time learning about other tools, and I just can't find any better than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Especially if you attend the LDS temple.

HiJolly

[DigitalShadow]

Do you honestly believe that most LDS people haven't asked these questions?? Don't you think with all of the flack we experience that we would continue in our course without such vital questioning?

Sometimes I think DS that you greatly underestimate the LDS people and what it really takes to gain and maintain a testimony.

That really depends on where you live. Do you honestly think Mormons in Utah take as much or more flack for their religious beliefs than atheists in Utah?

Also, I wasn't directing that question at most LDS people, I was directing it at someone who questioned my parental ability based solely on my lack of religious belief (something which I've gotten quite a bit of in Utah, so forgive me if it is a sensitive topic). My point was that there are many other religious views out there and people hold them for a variety of reasons and that judging people based solely on their religion is wrong and if you don't like people making assumptions about you just because you're a Mormon, you shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they're not Mormon.

[Misshalfway]

My point was that there are many other religious views out there and people hold them for a variety of reasons and that judging people based solely on their religion is wrong and if you don't like people making assumptions about you just because you're a Mormon, you shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they're not Mormon.

Agreed.

[Starfish]

Do you honestly think that atheists get as much flack outside of Utah, as the LDS get outside of Utah? It goes both ways.

[Guest Godless]

Do you honestly think that atheists get as much flack outside of Utah, as the LDS get outside of Utah? It goes both ways.

It depends on where you are. Atheism is comparable to leprosy in some parts of the country. At least you worship a God.

[Misshalfway]

It depends on where you are. Atheism is comparable to leprosy in some parts of the country. At least you worship a God.

Except when half the world thinks you are of the devil. :) And in this sense, I think maybe our two groups suffer from the same prejudice.

Look.....rather than arguing over who has it "worse", perhaps we can just agree that humans struggle with other humans who see things differently, and as a result, we end up taking flack.

You know, I was thinking about the "unity of the faith" idea this morning. At its core, religion is about behavior..... hopefully altruistic/prosocial/and even sanctified behavior. Learning doesn't necessarily equal kindness. Maybe it is in our ability to coexist shouldn't be defined by the melting into the cyborg of philosophy, but rather living together in Love that is the true mark of unity. When each heart is refined and each dealing is a kind one. Perhaps that is our ultimate test of this earth life. Have we really learned to love. And perhaps that is why there are so many differences amongst us. What better circumstance is there for us to learn these vital lessons?

Edited October 22, 2008 by Misshalfway
wording

[WillowTheWhisp]

Here where I live Christians of all or any denomination get more ridicule from atheists than LDS get from other Christians.

[applepansy]

That really depends on where you live. Do you honestly think Mormons in Utah take as much or more flack for their religious beliefs than atheists in Utah?

Also, I wasn't directing that question at most LDS people, I was directing it at someone who questioned my parental ability based solely on my lack of religious belief (something which I've gotten quite a bit of in Utah, so forgive me if it is a sensitive topic). My point was that there are many other religious views out there and people hold them for a variety of reasons and that judging people based solely on their religion is wrong and if you don't like people making assumptions about you just because you're a Mormon, you shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they're not Mormon.

Yes, Mormons in Utah take a lot of flack and sometimes outright discrimination for their beliefs.

and . . . I agree that we shouldn't judge other people by their religion or lack thereof.

applecreek

Edited October 22, 2008 by applepansy

[candyprpl]

As members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we seek to bring all truth together. We seek to enlarge the circle of love and understanding among all the people of the earth. Thus we strive to establish peace and happiness, not only with Christianity but among all mankind.

This is good advice and I wish we could all live by it -- it would bring us closer to having a global faith. It's obvious that we can't agree on everything but if we would 'seek to enlarge the circle of love and understanding' that would be a wonderful thing.

In the message of the gospel, the entire human race is one family descended from a single God. All men and women have not only a physical lineage leading back to Adam and Eve, their first earthly parents, but also a spiritual heritage leading back to God the Eternal Father. Thus, all persons on earth are literally brothers and sisters in the family of God.

Even those who do not believe in God -- we know you are still our brothers and sisters and we should still treat you as such.

Mormonism, so-called, is a world religion, not simply because its members are now found throughout the world, but chiefly because it has a comprehensive and inclusive message based upon the acceptance of all truth, restored to meet the needs of all mankind.

I believe that statement with all my heart and I do try to live by it -- and yes, I do come up short many times.

All men share an inheritance of divine light. God operates among his children in all nations, and those who seek God are entitled to further light and knowledge, regardless of their race, nationality, or cultural traditions. (President Howard W. Hunter, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.)

'those who seek God' -- that's what we have to remember -- not all are seeking.

Elder Orson F. Whitney, in a conference address, explained that many great religious leaders were inspired. He said: "[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves....

"All down the ages men bearing the authority of the Holy Priesthood -- patriarchs, prophets, apostles and others, have officiated in the name of the Lord, doing the things that he required of them; and outside the pale of their activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood, but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the Gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use." (Conference Report, Apr. 1921, pp. 32-33.)

As LDS we should remember this counsel by Elder Whitney. I think we should be thrilled that there are other missionaries from other faiths out there helping to bring people unto Christ.

I've read all the posts and this is a great discussion. This discussion has gone down a few different paths but not too far off the OP. My point in breaking up the quotes in my OP is to clarify (for me) the significance of accepting ALL and striving to do so, so that we may, possibly, live in harmony.

And ditto Misshalfway's last post.

[DigitalShadow]

Except when half the world thinks you are of the devil. :) And in this sense, I think maybe our two groups suffer from the same prejudice.

Look.....rather than arguing over who has it "worse", perhaps we can just agree that humans struggle with other humans who see things differently, and as a result, we end up taking flack.

You know, I was thinking about the "unity of the faith" idea this morning. At its core, religion is about behavior..... hopefully altruistic/prosocial/and even sanctified behavior. Learning doesn't necessarily equal kindness. Maybe it is in our ability to coexist shouldn't be defined by the melting into the cyborg of philosophy, but rather living together in Love that is the true mark of unity. When each heart is refined and each dealing is a kind one. Perhaps that is our ultimate test of this earth life. Have we really learned to love. And perhaps that is why there are so many differences amongst us. What better circumstance is there for us to learn these vital lessons?

Half the world thinks our country in general is the devil. If the ultimate test in this life is learning to coexist, the vast majority of people are failing miserably.

I know that Mormons face discrimination and prejudice and I am not trying to belittle your trials, but I really think you underestimate the dislike in this country for atheists. Here are some interesting statistics from Gallup Polls. These are the percentages of people who would refuse to vote for "a generally well-qualified person for president" who had one of these characteristics:

Catholic: 4%

Black: 5%

Jewish: 6%

Baptist: 6%

Woman: 8%

Mormon: 17%

Muslim: 38%

Gay: 37%

Atheist: 48%

Source: Gallup Polls & Other Surveys on American Attitudes Towards Atheists - Over 40 Years of Research Show Atheists Are Despised, Distrusted

The rest of the article is an interesting read as well.