Lucy's Diaries? Cal?

[srm]

Another thread that you dropped was about what Lucy said in her diaries re: joseph'e story telling. I have a couple of requests.

1. Please give me information about where one can read this diary? because my position is that Lucy didn't keep a diary that we are aware of.

2. Please show where Lucy said that joseph was just making up stories about the indians.

[Guest bat]

You forgot to say: "PS, this is a setup."

Why don't you just SAY that what he meant, was that Lucy Smith wrote about Joseph Smith's telling fanciful stories in her book Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith?

[Matt]

There's this: "Mormonism begins with Lucy Mack, mother of the prophet Joseph Smith. In her dictated memoir, readers will detect the same seeds of religious fervor and frontier idiom that characterized her son's writings and sermons."

That's at Signature Books. http://www.signaturebooks.com/lucy.htm is the link.

Is this what you mean?

[srm]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 10 2004, 04:08 PM

There's this: "Mormonism begins with Lucy Mack, mother of the prophet Joseph Smith. In her dictated memoir, readers will detect the same seeds of religious fervor and frontier idiom that characterized her son's writings and sermons."

That's at Signature Books. http://www.signaturebooks.com/lucy.htm is the link.

Is this what you mean?

No (but thank you), Cal claims that it is in her diary. I don't buy it.

[Snow]

I don't know if Lucy kept journals or not but Cal is pretty consistent in twisting things to further his agenda. Recently he tried to pass off a 3rd party anti-Mormon letter as an actual court transcript. Like he tried to pass of a tax reduction as a massive give-away.

[srm]

Originally posted by bat@Oct 10 2004, 03:51 PM

You forgot to say: "PS, this is a setup."

Batman, It is Cal who has made the claim then refused to provde the source then he disappeared. I want to bring it back up since he's back. Setup? hardly. It is just a request for proof.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by srm+Oct 10 2004, 07:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Oct 10 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bat@Oct 10 2004, 03:51 PM

You forgot to say: "PS, this is a setup."

Batman, It is Cal who has made the claim then refused to provde the source then he disappeared. I want to bring it back up since he's back. Setup? hardly. It is just a request for proof.

But you already know that he is mistaken. What's with the need for some people to admit to you that they made a mistake? Does it give you some kind of power trip to demand that somebody prove a point that you know they are mistaken on, instead of just pointing out their mistake? Please explain.

Speaking of power trips......

Hey Spencer, could you either take me off moderated status or find some moderators that can be bothered to approve posts more frequently than twice a week?

[Guest bat]

srm, first you said diary, then you said journal. Which one are you going with?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by bat@Oct 10 2004, 07:47 PM

Speaking of power trips......

Hey Spencer, could you either take me off moderated status or find some moderators that can be bothered to approve posts more frequently than twice a week?

Just cool it Bat. I have been here a couple of times today approving posts.

[Snow]

Well bat,

Since last week you said you were leaving and not checking back for a couple months, I didn't since to check the queue for your posts.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 10 2004, 10:31 PM

Well bat,

Since last week you said you were leaving and not checking back for a couple months, I didn't since to check the queue for your posts.

Well you can't just expect me to stand by and let srm's disingenous questions go unquestioned, can you? (I'm setting my stop watch for this one).

[Cal]

This is the source: Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for many Generations [Liverpool: S.W. Richards, 1853

If you want a more up to date analysis of her memoirs see:

A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir

LAVINA FIELDING ANDERSON, EDITOR

[Matt]

http://www.irr.org/mit/Early-Mormon-Docume...nts-review.html ://http://www.irr.org/mit/Early-Mormon...ts-review.html

This is another link to the same material.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 11 2004, 06:48 AM

This is the source: Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for many Generations [Liverpool: S.W. Richards, 1853

If you want a more up to date analysis of her memoirs see:

A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir

LAVINA FIELDING ANDERSON, EDITOR

Well, one thing in Cal's favor... when you are absolutely caught, you usually fess up.

So it wasn't from her diary, it was from a book of rememberances that she later wrote. I don't know why that is important to SRM but he made his point.

Bat, a diary is a jouranl (diary: A daily record, especially a personal record of events, experiences, and observations; a journal - American Heritage); and Cal is not being disingenuous. He is being straight forward. Disingenuous would be if he were trying to trick Cal. On the other hand, Cal was disingenuous because he was trying to get away with the false claim that Lucy kept diaries.

But on another note, don't know all the details but there is a controversy about Lucy book and Brigham Young, who apparently edited her book, for reasons unclear, or at least obscure. The critical edition seeks to restore it to it original condition.

[srm]

Originally posted by bat@Oct 10 2004, 07:56 PM

srm, first you said diary, then you said journal. Which one are you going with?

Diary. I corrected it.

[srm]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 11 2004, 06:48 AM

This is the source: Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for many Generations [Liverpool: S.W. Richards, 1853

If you want a more up to date analysis of her memoirs see:

A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir

LAVINA FIELDING ANDERSON, EDITOR

great Cal, thank you...that's a big step. You see it wasn't her diary rather the quote that you are using was from a biography of Joseph dictated to the Corays (sp) by lucy, decades later.

But more importantly, please show us where lucy says that she felt that Joseph was just making up stories re: the indians.

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm+Oct 11 2004, 11:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Oct 11 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 11 2004, 06:48 AM

This is the source:  Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for many Generations [Liverpool: S.W. Richards, 1853

If you want a more up to date analysis of her memoirs see:

A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir

LAVINA FIELDING ANDERSON, EDITOR

great Cal, thank you...that's a big step. You see it wasn't her diary rather the quote that you are using was from a biography of Joseph dictated to the Corays (sp) by lucy, decades later.

But more importantly, please show us where lucy says that she felt that Joseph was just making up stories re: the indians.

The only thing I am "fessing up" to is that, yes, I was a little sloppy if I used the word "diary". Memoirs was the word I should have used.

But more importantly, please show us where lucy says that she felt that Joseph was just making up stories re: the indians.

srm--now it is you that is being sloppy. I don't ever remember saying that lucy said that Joseph was "just" making up stories. That is a total misinterpretation, if not a down right misquote. What I was saying was simply that lucy had related in her memoirs (not diary! ok?) that Joseph has related stories of the indians. I don't know where the word "just" comes from. That is a spin YOU put on what I said. And my point was in relation to whether js had the ability to tell detailed stories about indians, which lucy's account supports.

Now, whether that means he got them from moroni or, as you say, just made them up is a different issue. Frankly, I really don't think it matters where he got them. The point is he did have the ability to recite indian stories.

By the way, if you chose to believe he got them from moroni, then you have already affirmed that there was a miraculous visitation, and therefore JS was for real. The indian stories only goes to the argument that JS did have the ability to relate indian stories. You can't argue that this ability is evidence of a miraculous visitation because there is nothing about that ability that that is unique to miraculous visitations. Lots of people have had the mental ability to relate great stories.

But, please try to see the distinction between my claiming that JS "just made them up", and claiming that his mothter related that he had that ability. The two are not the same statement.

[srm]

srm--now it is you that is being sloppy. I don't ever remember saying that lucy said that Joseph was "just" making up stories. That is a total misinterpretation, if not a down right misquote. What I was saying was simply that lucy had related in her memoirs (not diary! ok?) that Joseph has related stories of the indians. I don't know where the word "just" comes from. That is a spin YOU put on what I said. And my point was in relation to whether js had the ability to tell detailed stories about indians, which lucy's account supports.

No my friend it is not spin. Here is what you said,

"By the way, that JS was a great story teller is no my opinion, it is the opinion of his MOTHER--read her diary!"

What she said is NOT that he was a great story teller, rather that he related what he received via revelation. Ergo; it is not the opinion of Lucy that he was a great storyteller. This clearly shows that you think that Lucy feels that he was makong stuff up.

Then you quote Albanes,

"One Nation under Gods, page 64

Joe Smith . . . . loved hearing, as well as telling, tall-tales about American Indians. According to Joseph's mother, her son skillfully composed yarns about Native Americans while still just a teen; long before any golden plates had been found:"

His proof that Joseph 'loved hearing and telling tall tales" was his mother. it is specious. and you hitched your wagon to Albanes' star...you're wrong right along with him.

Now, whether that means he got them from moroni or, as you say, just made them up is a different issue. Frankly, I really don't think it matters where he got them. The point is he did have the ability to recite indian stories.

By the way, if you chose to believe he got them from moroni, then you have already affirmed that there was a miraculous visitation, and therefore JS was for real. The indian stories only goes to the argument that JS did have the ability to relate indian stories. You can't argue that this ability is evidence of a miraculous visitation because there is nothing about that ability that that is unique to miraculous visitations. Lots of people have had the mental ability to relate great stories.

But, please try to see the distinction between my claiming that JS "just made them up", and claiming that his mothter related that he had that ability. The two are not the same statement.

both statement are wrong. Lucy did not feel that he had the ability to make up stories...it is clear that it is not what she was saying. It is time to fess up and admit that you were wrong my friend.

1. It was not her diary

2. Lucy did not say that joseph made up stories

3. This was not before the visit of Moroni

[Cal]

No my friend it is not spin. Here is what you said,

"By the way, that JS was a great story teller is no my opinion, it is the opinion of his MOTHER--read her diary!"

You quoted me as saying the above...then you said below....

as you say, just made them up is a different issue.

Where in the first quote, or anywhere, did I assert that Joseph JUST MADE THEM UP.

I said no such thing---I did say that either he got them from moroni or he just made them up, but you put it as though I had made an assertion to the later, which I had not.

As to the rest, you are putting spin on what I said....my point was that Lucy related that Joseph told stories of the indians---I didn't say she thought he was making them up as you imply. Second, the fact that I said "diary" instead of memoir, is something I already corrected.

[srm]

Where in the first quote, or anywhere, did I assert that Joseph JUST MADE THEM UP.

I said no such thing---I did say that either he got them from moroni or he just made them up, but you put it as though I had made an assertion to the later, which I had not.

here's one where you DID say it.

"What I have shown is that JS did INDEED have a creative talent and imagination for story telling INDEPENDENT of the BoM."

Here's another one,

"What she DID apparently witness was JS making up stories!"

And you quote Albanes who says,

"Joe Smith . . . . loved hearing, as well as telling, tall-tales about American Indians. According to Joseph's mother, her son skillfully composed yarns about Native Americans while still just a teen; long before any golden plates had been found:"

Note, Albanes calls them TALL-TALES and YARNS

Cal, you've clearly stated that Joseph was making up stories. Now, when you're shown to be wrong, you're trying to dance away from it.

As to the rest, you are putting spin on what I said....my point was that Lucy related that Joseph told stories of the indians---I didn't say she thought he was making them up as you imply.

Here are the quotes again where you did say it,

"What I have shown is that JS did INDEED have a creative talent and imagination for story telling INDEPENDENT of the BoM."

"What she DID apparently witness was JS making up stories!"

Albanes

"Joe Smith . . . . loved hearing, as well as telling, tall-tales about American Indians. According to Joseph's mother, her son skillfully composed yarns about Native Americans while still just a teen; long before any golden plates had been found:"

Note, Albanes calls them TALL-TALES and YARNS

Second, the fact that I said "diary" instead of memoir, is something I already corrected.

yes, you did correct that.

One more thing. Above you said,

I did say that either he got them from moroni or he just made them up,

No, you said that this happened before any visits from moroni. Here's your quote

"wrong about the story telling--this comment was from Lucy Mack Smith's diary and was refering to a time BEFORE JS claimed to have the BoM or visitations from Moroni."

There just 'ain't' no way outta this one my friend.

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm@Oct 13 2004, 04:27 PM

Where in the first quote, or anywhere, did I assert that Joseph JUST MADE THEM UP.

I said no such thing---I did say that either he got them from moroni or he just made them up, but you put it as though I had made an assertion to the later, which I had not.

here's one where you DID say it.

"What I have shown is that JS did INDEED have a creative talent and imagination for story telling INDEPENDENT of the BoM."

Here's another one,

"What she DID apparently witness was JS making up stories!"

And you quote Albanes who says,

"Joe Smith . . . . loved hearing, as well as telling, tall-tales about American Indians. According to Joseph's mother, her son skillfully composed yarns about Native Americans while still just a teen; long before any golden plates had been found:"

Note, Albanes calls them TALL-TALES and YARNS

Cal, you've clearly stated that Joseph was making up stories. Now, when you're shown to be wrong, you're trying to dance away from it.

As to the rest, you are putting spin on what I said....my point was that Lucy related that Joseph told stories of the indians---I didn't say she thought he was making them up as you imply.

Here are the quotes again where you did say it,

"What I have shown is that JS did INDEED have a creative talent and imagination for story telling INDEPENDENT of the BoM."

"What she DID apparently witness was JS making up stories!"

Albanes

"Joe Smith . . . . loved hearing, as well as telling, tall-tales about American Indians. According to Joseph's mother, her son skillfully composed yarns about Native Americans while still just a teen; long before any golden plates had been found:"

Note, Albanes calls them TALL-TALES and YARNS

Second, the fact that I said "diary" instead of memoir, is something I already corrected.

yes, you did correct that.

One more thing. Above you said,

I did say that either he got them from moroni or he just made them up,

No, you said that this happened before any visits from moroni. Here's your quote

"wrong about the story telling--this comment was from Lucy Mack Smith's diary and was refering to a time BEFORE JS claimed to have the BoM or visitations from Moroni."

There just 'ain't' no way outta this one my friend.

There are several dates or time periods that have been refered to. One would be Pre-Moroni, one would be Pre-Golden plates, and one would be Pre-Book of Mormon and of course, Post-BoM. If I'm not mistaken, Lucy was talking Post-Moroni, but not necessarily, Post-golden plates or Post-BoM. I believe I said, Pre-BoM, which is still consistent with Lucy's story, which was simply Post-Moroni. I suspect that Albanes may be correct in that even if the stories were told after JS supposedly encountered Moroni, JS's own story says he didn't get the plates until 4 years later, so Albanes may have been right, since you are claiming that it happened after JS had been visited by Moroni, and got the stories from him.

To me, it doesn't really matter whether it was pre-Moroni, pre-Golden plates or Pre-Book of Mormon. The fact is that JS had the ability to relate Indian stories, INDEPENDENT of what he wrote in the book of mormon. We can argue all day about HOW he got the ability. You will say it was from God, I am more inclined to believe it was an unusual talent, and leave it at that.

[Guest curvette]

Personally, I wouldn't trust Lucy Smith's memory. It's hard to look back forty or fifty years, and recall exactly when (or if) certain events took place. I also think she embellished the story of Joseph's leg surgery. It differs substantially from Joseph Smith's own short account. I don't think she was a liar, but she was old, and she had been through so many traumatic events that I don't see how she could retain perfect recall.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette@Oct 14 2004, 07:22 AM

Personally, I wouldn't trust Lucy Smith's memory. It's hard to look back forty or fifty years, and recall exactly when (or if) certain events took place. I also think she embellished the story of Joseph's leg surgery. It differs substantially from Joseph Smith's own short account. I don't think she was a liar, but she was old, and she had been through so many traumatic events that I don't see how she could retain perfect recall.

Interesting points. If I remember right, and don't hammer me too hard if I get something wrong here, I'm going from old SS class type stuff....but we were told that JS, when he had that leg surgery, that he refused to take alcohol...implying that he was SOOOO rightous that he was already observing the WoW at an early age. This is kind of a laughable story because, even if true, it is well documented that JS had no problem with drinking alcohol even after he became leader of the church.

I AM curious where that story came from--was it Lucy, or was it in his history?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 14 2004, 07:29 AM

I AM curious where that story came from--was it Lucy, or was it in his history?

They both wrote about it, but Joseph's recollection was much shorter and didn't include the alcohol story. I don't think anyone doubts that it really happened. Her description of it though, has seven year old Joseph using such flowery, mature language that it lost it's credibility with me. I think he did have the surgery, and it's somewhat of a miracle that he survived it. It was a barbaric procedure though, and, as a mother, I would have INSISTED that my child take something for the pain--even if alcohol were the only painkiller available. It was pre-WOW, but temperence was alive and well in many religious homes. I can't imagine the trauma that amount of pain would have caused a young child.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 14 2004, 01:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 14 2004, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 14 2004, 07:29 AM

I AM curious where that story came from--was it Lucy, or was it in his history?

They both wrote about it, but Joseph's recollection was much shorter and didn't include the alcohol story. I don't think anyone doubts that it really happened. Her description of it though, has seven year old Joseph using such flowery, mature language that it lost it's credibility with me. I think he did have the surgery, and it's somewhat of a miracle that he survived it. It was a barbaric procedure though, and, as a mother, I would have INSISTED that my child take something for the pain--even if alcohol were the only painkiller available. It was pre-WOW, but temperence was alive and well in many religious homes. I can't imagine the trauma that amount of pain would have caused a young child.

I agree that the experience must have been beyond traumatic. It is difficult to imagine having to go through something like that. Thank you for remembering the details.