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[Misshalfway]

1/2, so do u think that can be through withholding feelings that it is true? What about if he tells others that it is not true. Would u accept that as an answer too?

Well, Doc my friend, I don't believe that God contradicts himself. I mean truth is truth is truth. God must tell the truth. He cannot lie and He has absolutely promised to do so. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened. He loves us -- all of us and will guide all to Eternal Life.....all who will follow Him anyway. God doesn't force or control. God leads. So, it is up to us to work thru our fear and pride and confusion even to listen and to follow.

This is my opinion and only that, but if you will allow me honesty from my perspective, I will say that I don't believe that people always follow the Spirit. I think they decide against the BofM for many reasons. I think that people get confused about how to determine spiritual truth. And why wouldn't they? With so many different methods being taught in the world.

There are times when I listen to others and wonder if they even understand what and how the spirit works and how it feels when it is working inside of them. From my own experience, it takes work and discipline and much in the way of pondering and prayer. Answers to this kind of thing don't always come easy and don't always come all at once.

God doesn't always give just because we ask. I believe he wants more from us than just an inquiry. It is kind of like the student who wants an A just for showing up and the professor who gives him an F because it takes effort and requires that perhaps the student use his brain and participate in the learning process.

People get confused because of their emotions and societal and familial influences, imo, and sometimes stumble because of the traditions of their cultures and churches which perhaps are not always correct.

When I hear that people have gotten an unequivocal answer about the truth of the BofM, I pause and question because it is so very different than my experience with the Spirit and the multiple confirmations I have received on multiple fronts concerning the truth of the Book. They are so strong in my life that I absolutely can't deny it.

I am also skeptical in some cases because I have met those who say they absolutely know the book is false, but upon further investigation find out that they haven't even read it. I am skeptical that God would tell someone it is false, when reading it is requisite to discovering its truth.

I have had God tell me "No" before. I have had a "stupor of thought". I have felt the Spirit say "yes" to me also. I am familiar with the process and have learned to search within the Spirit to find truth. That doesn't mean I always get it right or that I know the answers to things. I struggle just as much as the next guy. I believe though that my course is a correct one and I believe that because of many factors. And I don't blame any man who investigates the LDS church and chooses against it. There are so many factors in such a decision that are beyond my ability to judge.

This is the primary invitation of this church. For the world to come and read the book and hear the message and then to go and obtain an confirmation and testimony, not from logic or popular opinion or emotion or any other source but the Holy Spirit of God, whether or not this work is authored of God. And I absolutely believe that God will confirm the same truth to each humble and sincere and obedient inquiry. And I believe that such will be given to all because God is no respecter of persons.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

I agree, go to the source but I'd also say consider your source - that's all :)

I don't know what that means.....consider the source....... can you elaborate?

And yes, you are right. There is a mission to help anyone who will come to the knowledge (I mean the personal testimony kind) of the Savior of this world and of the Restoration of the Gospel.

But with a very important proviso...........we believe that every man is free to worship according to their conscience. So let man choose as they will and let us do so in respect and peace.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Dr T]

Well, Doc my friend, I don't believe that God contradicts himself. I mean truth is truth is truth. God must tell the truth. He cannot lie and He has absolutely promised to do so. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened. He loves us -- all of us and will guide all to Eternal Life.....all who will follow Him anyway. God doesn't force or control. God leads. So, it is up to us to work thru our fear and pride and confusion even to listen and to follow.

This is my opinion and only that, but if you will allow me honesty from my perspective, I will say that I don't believe that people always follow the Spirit. I think they decide against the BofM for many reasons. I think that people get confused about how to determine spiritual truth. And why wouldn't they? With so many different methods being taught in the world.

There are times when I listen to others and wonder if they even understand what and how the spirit works and how it feels when it is working inside of them. From my own experience, it takes work and discipline and much in the way of pondering and prayer. Answers to this kind of thing don't always come easy and don't always come all at once.

God doesn't always give just because we ask. I believe he wants more from us than just an inquiry. It is kind of like the student who wants an A just for showing up and the professor who gives him an F because it takes effort and requires that perhaps the student use his brain and participate in the learning process.

People get confused because of their emotions and societal and familial influences, imo, and sometimes stumble because of the traditions of their cultures and churches which perhaps are not always correct.

When I hear that people have gotten an unequivocal answer about the truth of the BofM, I pause and question because it is so very different than my experience with the Spirit and the multiple confirmations I have received on multiple fronts concerning the truth of the Book. They are so strong in my life that I absolutely can't deny it.

I am also skeptical in some cases because I have met those who say they absolutely know the book is false, but upon further investigation find out that they haven't even read it. I am skeptical that God would tell someone it is false, when reading it is requisite to discovering its truth.

I have had God tell me "No" before. I have had a "stupor of thought". I have felt the Spirit say "yes" to me also. I am familiar with the process and have learned to search within the Spirit to find truth. That doesn't mean I always get it right or that I know the answers to things. I struggle just as much as the next guy. I believe though that my course is a correct one and I believe that because of many factors. And I don't blame any man who investigates the LDS church and chooses against it. There are so many factors in such a decision that are beyond my ability to judge.

This is the primary invitation of this church. For the world to come and read the book and hear the message and then to go and obtain an confirmation and testimony, not from logic or popular opinion or emotion or any other source but the Holy Spirit of God, whether or not this work is authored of God. And I absolutely believe that God will confirm the same truth to each humble and sincere and obedient inquiry. And I believe that such will be given to all because God is no respecter of persons.

Thank you for your thoughts Half :)

Consider your source basically saying, we are all biased and want certain things, when u ask of someone and they give a response, just consider their bais-that's all. Nobody is immune from bias.

[Misshalfway]

Thank you for your thoughts Half :)

Consider your source basically saying, we are all biased and want certain things, when u ask of someone and they give a response, just consider their bais-that's all. Nobody is immune from bias.

Oh. I see what you were saying. And I absolutely agree. I think that is why the Spirit is more sure than any other source of truth. I think it is the spirit and only the Spirit that can bring people to the unity of the Faith. Without the Spirit all we have is bias and agenda.

[Guest ceeboo]

People get confused because of their emotions and societal and familial influences, imo, and sometimes stumble because of the traditions of their cultures and churches which perhaps are not always correct.

Hello Misshalfway,

For your consideration only and nothing more.:)

This offering of yours, to be fair, does indeed go both ways.:):)

God bless,

Carl

[Dr T]

I want to agree but I'm stuck with the concept that we cannot extricate ourselves from that interaction. I want to say our own humanity, our agency, our own selfish desires, our thoughts, feelings and behaviors all play a role in that decision. I do not think God forces us to believe yet I know the Bible talks about "unless we are drawn" or whatever, hmmmmm...this is fun to think about.

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

For your consideration only and nothing more.:)

This offering of yours, to be fair, does indeed go both ways.:):)

God bless,

Carl

Ceeboo sweetie, what goes both ways? That we all falter? That we all have traditions of our fathers and our churches that are not correct? That we all have blindness and pride and weakness? There is nothing in my perspective that does not acknowledge this. I think we all, every one of us, has at one time or another believed something or some notion or practice that is not true or not entirely true. If this is what you are saying, then I absolutely agree with you and am not sure what it is you are hearing in my remarks that makes you feel like you need to point this out to me, yet again.

If you are telling me that I am wrong and that my church is wrong and that I am blind to it, then I must respectfully and lovingly disagree. I disagree only because of my personal experience with the Spirit of the Lord and the confirmation of the Spirit that I have received.....a confirmation I argued with and struggled to obtain but absolutely cannot deny.

If you are reminding me of my bias, please go to the beginning of my statements. I tried to be clear that I was speaking from my own perspective ONLY. I am very aware of my bias and my purpose in speaking the way that I did. If that offends you or makes you feel that I am saying that all churches everywhere are wrong and mine is right and that seems hurtful, then I am sorry. I am aware of the boldness of my statements and plead with Dr. T to understand. I have written on this forum how I feel about other churches and the truth that I believe is in and thru-out the world on many occasions. Perhaps you need to read more of me to get a better idea of how I really feel.

And beyond that, would it be ok if I had an opinion? And would it be ok, please for me to express it to a friend who asked me to clarify MY thought process? A friend who I trust and who probably disagrees with me but is allowing me my opinion?

I give you every right to believe as you do, as you remind me and everyone that you do not believe the LDS platform and that you believe the message is false. You have my every respect in believing and presenting your case as you see it, even if I see it differently or disagree.

[Misshalfway]

I want to agree but I'm stuck with the concept that we cannot extricate ourselves from that interaction. I want to say our own humanity, our agency, our own selfish desires, our thoughts, feelings and behaviors all play a role in that decision. I do not think God forces us to believe yet I know the Bible talks about "unless we are drawn" or whatever, hmmmmm...this is fun to think about.

Unless we are drawn......... What does that mean to you? Are you talking about being influenced and invited by the Spirit to accept the good?

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

For your consideration only and nothing more.:)

This offering of yours, to be fair, does indeed go both ways.:):)

God bless,

Carl

I wrote a response but I deleted it. I decided I wanted to ask you to explain your position and your point in more detail, if you wouldn't mind, and your purpose in bringing this to my attention.

[Guest ceeboo]

I wrote a response but I deleted it. I decided I wanted to ask you to explain your position and your point in more detail, if you wouldn't mind, and your purpose in bringing this to my attention.

I will try :)

I was simply trying to contribute to a conversation on " truth " of BofM and what many LDS claim the reasons are that non LDS do not agree on claimed " truth "

You suggested that people get confused because of their emotions and societal and familial influences and sometimes stumble because of the traditions of their cultures and their Churches which perhaps are not always correct.

I was simply suggesting that a non LDS could certainly mount a great case for thereasons LDS are LDS using your suggestion.

My purpose in bringing it to your attention was to simply offer a non LDS perspective to a rather interesting thread.

BTW, why would you delete your response to me and ask me the questions instead

God bless,

Carl

[Dr T]

Drawn by God-whatever that means.

[Misshalfway]

I will try :)

I was simply trying to contribute to a conversation on " truth " of BofM and what many LDS claim the reasons are that non LDS do not agree on claimed " truth "

You suggested that people get confused because of their emotions and societal and familial influences and sometimes stumble because of the traditions of their cultures and their Churches which perhaps are not always correct.

I was simply suggesting that a non LDS could certainly mount a great case for thereasons LDS are LDS using your suggestion.

My purpose in bringing it to your attention was to simply offer a non LDS perspective to a rather interesting thread.

BTW, why would you delete your response to me and ask me the questions instead

God bless,

Carl

Oh you know, I deleted the other response because I felt that I wasn't sure I was understanding your point completely and wanted to make sure I understood you properly instead of reading between the lines.

I appreciate your non LDS perspective. I know that I am speaking from this side of the watering hole and I know you sit on the other side. And I appreciate your perspective and that of others I have met here on the forum. Hopefully my understanding of things has improved and will continue in that direction. And I don't claim to know all the reasons folks reject the BofM. As I tried to state at the beginnings of my remarks, I was only speaking from limited understanding and opinion.

I don't know if this helps, but I don't always think of truth in the context of religion -- even my own. I believe that truth is found in many places through out the earth and that God is working in whatever mysterious ways to deal with his children in wisdom. I think that all of us stumble because of the reasons I listed, including LDS folks. I would also include myself in that category. I was raised in an LDS family and in a predominantly LDS neighborhood. How easy it would have been for me to follow the herd and the status quo of my culture and my upbringing. Gratefully, I was taught by my parents, not to take the teachings of the church on face value and not to follow them just because my parents did or just because they said it was the right thing to do. I was encouraged to study and learn and evaluate for myself and to take my evaluations to the Lord for confirmation. And I am not sure it could have gone any other way considering my thirst for knowledge. I probably would have insisted on that course anyway.

I think that this is a unique element to the LDS doctrine, that we encourage everyone to get their knowledge from the same source. How else can we be more secure than to rely on the Spirit and our communications from Father in Heaven to know our course is a correct one? And I mean on any given topic and about any various circumstance. Knowledge isn't really knowledge until it is confirmed in our souls by the Spirit and we usually don't baptize someone unless they express that they have come to such knowledge. And I believe many of us are on a journey to discover the truths of the eternities and are at different places inside that process. But when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. When we desire the truth, God will give it to us. This is revelation. There really isn't anything more fundamentally LDS than this.

I am sure that you could mount an effective defense to discount the LDS church. Many have been in that business for longer than I have been alive. But, I also know what I tried to share earlier, that God isn't a God of deception or confusion and that I don't really need to convince anyone if the BofM is true or false. That is God's job. I may find myself in the position of delivering the message or in being the receiver of a lesson, but it is the Spirit that is the teacher. Make sense? And when the Spirit is present the teacher and the hearer understand one another. So at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter the case for or against...... what matters is the will of God and the method by which all of us can come to the knowledge of the truth. The journey to truth, as I am sure you will agree, is an absolutely individual one. I can't give you what I have. You can't give me what you have. We both have to obtain it for ourselves. Parable of the virgins comes to mind. Each person is responsible for filling their own lamp.

[Guest ceeboo]

I am sure that you could mount an effective defense to discount the LDS church. Many have been in that business for longer than I have been alive. But, I also know what I tried to share earlier, that God isn't a God of deception or confusion and that I don't really need to convince anyone if the BofM is true or false. That is God's job.

Hey Miss,

OHHH Miss, sooo defensive and bias.

Is that really what you got from my post

I have deleted the rest :)

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Dude. I am not defensive. NOt in the least!!!! I am agreeing with you. You said that some could make a good case against the LDS church.

Honey, I am just making my point. What gives? I swear you read me wrong.

PS. If I am not understanding you, would you mind explaining what I am missing?

[Misshalfway]

Hmmm....... deleting your post. Ok. That's cool. Not sure what I am saying to upset you. Whatever it is, I seem to be good at it. I would say I am sorry.....but I am not suppose to do that. So.......

Look. Maybe we could try it this way. Then maybe I can learn to understand you better.

How do you find spiritual truth? How do you know your prayers are answered and some blessing wasn't just happenstance? How do you know some doctrine....any doctrine is true inside of your soul? And how do you know it isn't just your best guess or some product of your environment ? What does revelation from Heavenly Father feel like to you?

[Dr T]

To whom is that directed 1/2343546432.7?

[Misshalfway]

To whom is that directed 1/2343546432.7?

:lol: T. You are so cool. I was directing my remarks to Ceeboo. I am sorry I didn't state that. But I would love an answer from anyone. I know that this is how my brain works but I would like to see the perspectives of others too.

[ztodd]

In my opinion, here are some tough question, and the answers he would receive from the missionaries. The "Q" is the question. The "A" is what the missionary would answer. and the "truth" is the full story as fully documented by the church. And which any new investigator has the right to know.

1. Q. Why was Joseph Smith killed?

A. He was wrongly accused and was led like a lamb to slaughter.

Truth: He ordered the destruction of private property (a printing press and office) while the Mayor of his town. He then fled and returned where he was captured.

2. Q. Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

A. No

Truth: There is proof that Joseph Smith married 33 wifes, including 2 teenagers, and many women who were all ready married to other men. He denied this was happening and even hid it from his wife.

3. Q. How did Joseph translate the plates?

A. He had the plates in front of him, often with a sheet separating him and the scribe, then with the use of the U &T (sometimes not) he would read word for word from the plates.

Truth: There is no validated evidence that the plates nor the U&T were ever used in the translation process. He was inspired to put the rock in the bottom of a hat and then read the words that appeared.

4. Q. Has any evidence ever been found to prove the story of the Book of Mormon. Where are the horses, the Elephants, the geography, the mounds of steel swords, breastplates, and helmets? Why is the DNA of the present day "Lamanites" not connected in any way to people of middle eastern descent?

A. Uhhh... You'll learn about the meat of the gospel later in your life after you've joined the church.

There are about 20 additional items I could bring up. Not one of these items or examples comes from a single anti-mormon site. They come from our own material, but is buried so deep or hidden that it takes historians to find out. Also, I'm fully in the church and currently teach in the seminary program. This person deserves to know about the truth and not the watered down (not fully true) version that we get fed as "Milk" while never being taught the "Meat".

Once again Rockwoodchev, your information you are presenting is very slanted and very revealing of your intentions.

Are you more interested in strengthening people's testimonies in the church, or in drawing people away from the church?

Why would you answer questions in this way to distort the truth and make the prophet Joseph and the Book of Mormon look bad? Why do you omit the rest of the story that helps give a much clearer picture of all of these things?

[Brother Dorsey]

In my opinion, here are some tough question, and the answers he would receive from the missionaries. The "Q" is the question. The "A" is what the missionary would answer. and the "truth" is the full story as fully documented by the church. And which any new investigator has the right to know.

1. Q. Why was Joseph Smith killed?

A. He was wrongly accused and was led like a lamb to slaughter.

Truth: He ordered the destruction of private property (a printing press and office) while the Mayor of his town. He then fled and returned where he was captured.

2. Q. Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

A. No

Truth: There is proof that Joseph Smith married 33 wifes, including 2 teenagers, and many women who were all ready married to other men. He denied this was happening and even hid it from his wife.

3. Q. How did Joseph translate the plates?

A. He had the plates in front of him, often with a sheet separating him and the scribe, then with the use of the U &T (sometimes not) he would read word for word from the plates.

Truth: There is no validated evidence that the plates nor the U&T were ever used in the translation process. He was inspired to put the rock in the bottom of a hat and then read the words that appeared.

4. Q. Has any evidence ever been found to prove the story of the Book of Mormon. Where are the horses, the Elephants, the geography, the mounds of steel swords, breastplates, and helmets? Why is the DNA of the present day "Lamanites" not connected in any way to people of middle eastern descent?

A. Uhhh... You'll learn about the meat of the gospel later in your life after you've joined the church.

There are about 20 additional items I could bring up. Not one of these items or examples comes from a single anti-mormon site. They come from our own material, but is buried so deep or hidden that it takes historians to find out. Also, I'm fully in the church and currently teach in the seminary program. This person deserves to know about the truth and not the watered down (not fully true) version that we get fed as "Milk" while never being taught the "Meat".

You teach seminary? I sincerely hope you are not teaching this group of anti-Mormon mumbo jumbo to your students!

I am going to answer your questions with how they were answered for me by the missionaries when I took the discussions and also give you the "truth" as fully documented by the church.

Here we go:

1. Q. Why was Joseph Smith killed?

A: He was murdered along with his brother Hyrum because of his beliefs by a mob of his persecutors wearing black on their faces to conceal their identities.

TRUTH: As stated in the Nauvoo city charter the mayor AND city leaders had the right to stop any and all persons who would cause a civil unrest. He had the press and printing office destroyed after printing malicious lies about the church and it's leaders and this fell under the right to stop a civil unrest. He was then charged and he and his brother turned themselves in. He was never "captured" as you state. He and his brother were murdered while incarcerated in jail. Not by anyone of authority but by a mob lead by a local "preacher".

2. Q. Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

A. Yes, but it was ordained of God as was Moses, Abraham, David etc.

TRUTH: There is proof that Joseph Smith had many wifes, Some were married to him and lived with him in the traditional sense. The others he was only sealed to them and they lived with their real husbands. He NEVER denied this was happening and NEVER hid it from his wife.

3. Q. How did Joseph translate the plates?

A. He had the plates in front of him, often with a sheet separating him and the scribe, then with the use of the U &T (sometimes not) he would read word for word from the plates.

TRUTH: The fact is Joseph Smith translated the plates by the power of God. And there are many documented ways the Prophet performed the translation. The most common was that he used the U & T, sometimes he didn't use anything, sometimes he did the rock in the hat thing.

4. Q. Has any evidence ever been found to prove the story of the Book of Mormon. Where are the horses, the Elephants, the geography, the mounds of steel swords, breastplates, and helmets? Why is the DNA of the present day "Lamanites" not connected in any way to people of middle eastern descent?

A. Has any physical evidence ever been found to prove the existence of God? Of Jesus Christ? There would be no faith if there was physical evidence. Same rings true for the book of Mormon...maybe the Lord wants you to rely on faith.

TRUTH: the Book of Mormon has only been around 178 years, they have only been researching and studying and digging in the areas where the book of Mormon could have taken place for less that 70 years whereas they've been doing the same thing in the middles east for over 1300 years. They have recently discovered a horse like creature and pygmy elephant that graced the ares in the BoM times. ALSO, the DNA argument holds no water, it's a proven fact that in no way a DNA marker from a middle eastern human could survive after centuries of extrobreeding. Given that fact it was a mere handful of people (Lehi's family) that came here and their descendants coupling with the indigenous people at the time (mostly of Asian origin) the middle eastern DNA marker was soon bred out of them. And how long do you think a steel sword, breastplate or helmet could last in the humid climate of South America? 16 centuries? I seriously doubt it could last 2.

And finally your statement:

"Uhhh... You'll learn about the meat of the gospel later in your life after you've joined the church."

These questions you brought up had absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing. They pertained to the history of Joseph Smith and evidences of the BoM. But nothing to do with the Gospel. If a missionary doesn't answer one of these questions with a "complete" or "detailed" answer it's not because he is hiding anything or keeping the "meat" of the Gospel from someone, it's because he is charged to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....not the detailed history of the church.

[bytor2112]

In my opinion, here are some tough question, and the answers he would receive from the missionaries. The "Q" is the question. The "A" is what the missionary would answer. and the "truth" is the full story as fully documented by the church. And which any new investigator has the right to know.

1. Q. Why was Joseph Smith killed?

A. He was wrongly accused and was led like a lamb to slaughter.

Truth: He ordered the destruction of private property (a printing press and office) while the Mayor of his town. He then fled and returned where he was captured.

2. Q. Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

A. No

Truth: There is proof that Joseph Smith married 33 wifes, including 2 teenagers, and many women who were all ready married to other men. He denied this was happening and even hid it from his wife.

3. Q. How did Joseph translate the plates?

A. He had the plates in front of him, often with a sheet separating him and the scribe, then with the use of the U &T (sometimes not) he would read word for word from the plates.

Truth: There is no validated evidence that the plates nor the U&T were ever used in the translation process. He was inspired to put the rock in the bottom of a hat and then read the words that appeared.

4. Q. Has any evidence ever been found to prove the story of the Book of Mormon. Where are the horses, the Elephants, the geography, the mounds of steel swords, breastplates, and helmets? Why is the DNA of the present day "Lamanites" not connected in any way to people of middle eastern descent?

A. Uhhh... You'll learn about the meat of the gospel later in your life after you've joined the church.

There are about 20 additional items I could bring up. Not one of these items or examples comes from a single anti-mormon site. They come from our own material, but is buried so deep or hidden that it takes historians to find out. Also, I'm fully in the church and currently teach in the seminary program. This person deserves to know about the truth and not the watered down (not fully true) version that we get fed as "Milk" while never being taught the "Meat".

???????!!!!??????? You wouldn't be teaching my kids seminary! If you were "fully" in church, you would feel differently. Conversion to our faith is often a laborous journey. Investigators are often skeptical to begin with and misinformation is readily available via the internet and you want to confirm to them that there worst fears...based on misunderstanding and dare I say, spiritual immaturity are indeed factual? Do you have a testimony.....is the church true Rock? Whats more important....how many wives JS had or that the blessings of heaven are available through the restoration of the Priesthood?

[Guest ceeboo]

These questions you brought up had absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing. They pertained to the history of Joseph Smith and evidences of the BoM. But nothing to do with the Gospel. If a missionary doesn't answer one of these questions with a "complete" or "detailed" answer it's not because he is hiding anything or keeping the "meat" of the Gospel from someone, it's because he is charged to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....not the detailed history of the church.

Hello Brother Dorsey,

This offering of yours, " Charged to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not the detailed history of the Church " makes alot of sense to me ( a non LDS ) and I appreciate you sharing your perspective.:):)

To lend a tone of fairness to this, I ( Catholic ) can not recall ever talking to " new people I meet " about the history of the Catholic ", especially at first and or with non Christians, but rather use almost all my time discussing the Lord and what he did for us ALL.:):)

Thought I would share that with you :)

God bless,

Carl

Edited October 21, 2008 by ceeboo

[HiJolly]

You teach seminary? I sincerely hope you are not teaching this group of anti-Mormon mumbo jumbo to your students!

It would be even worse (and more understandable) if he/she were being PAID to teach seminary. As close to priestcraft as the LDS Church comes...

1. Q. Why was Joseph Smith killed?

A: He was murdered along with his brother Hyrum because of his beliefs by a mob of his persecutors wearing black on their faces to conceal their identities.

TRUTH: As stated in the Nauvoo city charter the mayor AND city leaders had the right to stop any and all persons who would cause a civil unrest. He had the press and printing office destroyed after printing malicious lies about the church and it's leaders and this fell under the right to stop a civil unrest. He was then charged and he and his brother turned themselves in. He was never "captured" as you state. He and his brother were murdered while incarcerated in jail. Not by anyone of authority but by a mob lead by a local "preacher".

I have seen some evidence that the driving force behind the killing of Joseph was not only polygamy and political influence, but also the Masonic outrage over the temple endowment. FWIW.

2. Q. Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

A. Yes, but it was ordained of God as was Moses, Abraham, David etc.

TRUTH: There is proof that Joseph Smith had many wifes, Some were married to him and lived with him in the traditional sense. The others he was only sealed to them and they lived with their real husbands. He NEVER denied this was happening and NEVER hid it from his wife.

errr.... Actually, he did deny being married to more than one wife in a talk given in Nauvoo in 1844. And there is considerable circumstantial evidence (Partidge sisters, for example) that Emma was not always told, every time.

These questions you brought up had absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing. They pertained to the history of Joseph Smith and evidences of the BoM. But nothing to do with the Gospel. If a missionary doesn't answer one of these questions with a "complete" or "detailed" answer it's not because he is hiding anything or keeping the "meat" of the Gospel from someone, it's because he is charged to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....not the detailed history of the church.

TOTALLY agree with the rest of your post. Very nice. Thanks!

HiJolly

[ztodd]

errr.... Actually, he did deny being married to more than one wife in a talk given in Nauvoo in 1844. And there is considerable circumstantial evidence (Partidge sisters, for example) that Emma was not always told, every time.

HiJolly

But he didn't intentionally hide it from Emma, right?

Just out of curiosity, do you know where I could find that talk?

[HiJolly]

But he didn't intentionally hide it from Emma, right?

He did not hide the concept from her, but her reaction was not good. Over the years, she varied in her favorable or negative opinions concerning its practice. In the end, she opposed it vehemently. Joseph tried to do what he felt was right, and at the same time keep peace in the family. It proved to be impossible to do both, from what I've read.

Just out of curiosity, do you know where I could find that talk?

It's here: History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412

Sunday, May 26, 1844

"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."

Now, I don't think Joseph at any time committed adultery, but at the time of this speech, he certainly did have more than one woman sealed to him. More like, about 30.

Too bad the History is not online, like the Journal of Discourses is...

HiJolly