What's so hard to understand about the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead?

[LittleNipper]

You are missing the point. Paul words are not easily understood unless you are walked in his shoes. What did Genesis give us as a stated fact?

Genesis 1:28-29

GOD blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earthand subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the airand over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Then GOD said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food..."

[Faded]

Ephesians 1:5

Romans 8:23

What do you think of these verses of scripture?

You're forgetting one very, very important thing with your approach:

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

Honest. Nobody succeeds in a Bible Bashing argument. It doesn't work. A lot of people who are a lot smarter than you or I have tried and failed.

If I could, I would love to run the following experiment with together with you. Take any two people who have never even heard of the Bible, much less read one. Then have them read it. I will bet you any amount of money you care to wager that they will NOT come away with the same understanding. They will not agree, even on a passage by passage basis.

I'm not entirely sure where you're driving at by saying that you believe that you are adopted and so forth. Doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic. You'd have to explain in a lot better detail where you're going with that because I'm not making any sense out of it, at least in the way that you worded it.

For the sake of simplifying, here are your passages of scripture.

Ephesians 1:5

[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:23

[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body

To answer your question, "What do I think of those two scriptures?" I think they're very nice. They haven't got anything to do with the discussion on the nature of God or on revelation for that matter, but they are very nice verses.

None of us are going to prove the other wrong about the nature of God. That is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to have a respective dialogue and to come to understand the opposite point of view. I have not yet bothered to put for any real effort to debate the matter, and I don't intend to do so. I can say that I've learned a good bit about the Trinity Doctrine though.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Faded

[LittleNipper]

You're forgetting one very, very important thing with your approach:

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

You cannot prove you are right by quoting scriptures.

Honest. Nobody succeeds in a Bible Bashing argument. It doesn't work. A lot of people who are a lot smarter than you or I have tried and failed.

If I could, I would love to run the following experiment with together with you. Take any two people who have never even heard of the Bible, much less read one. Then have them read it. I will bet you any amount of money you care to wager that they will NOT come away with the same understanding. They will not agree, even on a passage by passage basis.

I'm not entirely sure where you're driving at by saying that you believe that you are adopted and so forth. Doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic. You'd have to explain in a lot better detail where you're going with that because I'm not making any sense out of it, at least in the way that you worded it.

For the sake of simplifying, here are your passages of scripture.

Ephesians 1:5

Romans 8:23

To answer your question, "What do I think of those two scriptures?" I think they're very nice. They haven't got anything to do with the discussion on the nature of God or on revelation for that matter, but they are very nice verses.

None of us are going to prove the other wrong about the nature of God. That is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to have a respective dialogue and to come to understand the opposite point of view. I have not yet bothered to put for any real effort to debate the matter, and I don't intend to do so. I can say that I've learned a good bit about the Trinity Doctrine though.

Can anyone prove anything scriptural by simply making things up?

The scripture clearly says to me that I'm adopted by GOD through CHRIST when I accept CHRIST as my SAVIOR. It does not suggest in anyway that I was GOD's child before that point, though it does say that GOD knew what I'd come to accept. However, it also means that GOD knew exactly what HE intended to do concerning man's fall before he even did so...

I'm glad you have learned more ---- that is always a good thing. :)

Edited February 20, 2009 by LittleNipper

[Guest tomk]

We give scriptural proof, but we don't appeal to the scriptures as absolute proof.

God must reveal the scriptures to us. An appeal to the scriptures was EXACTLY the problem that Joseph Smith was experiencing. Everyone understood the same passages differently! Then one day he read James 1:5. He read the words, but God revealed their meaning to him - God gave him the witness:

JS-H 1: 12

12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

Joseph Smith came out of the woods with a clear understanding of the Godhead, their individualness as well as their unity and love for mankind. He also knew that the Bible was not the end of God's word. The heavens had re-opened. Revelation from God to man was reinstated.

But for everyone else -- things went on "as normal" -- they continued to try to appeal to the Bible for answers, continuing to disagree.

It continues to this day.

Tom

[LittleNipper]

We give scriptural proof, but we don't appeal to the scriptures as absolute proof.

God must reveal the scriptures to us. An appeal to the scriptures was EXACTLY the problem that Joseph Smith was experiencing. Everyone understood the same passages differently! Then one day he read James 1:5. He read the words, but God revealed their meaning to him - God gave him the witness:

JS-H 1: 12

12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

Joseph Smith came out of the woods with a clear understanding of the Godhead, their individualness as well as their unity and love for mankind. He also knew that the Bible was not the end of God's word. The heavens had re-opened. Revelation from God to man was reinstated.

But for everyone else -- things went on "as normal" -- they continued to try to appeal to the Bible for answers, continuing to disagree.

It continues to this day.

Tom

Let me ask you if you feel James 1:5 only applies to Mr. Joseph Smith? This verse doesn't mention that one needs someone to ask GOD on his behalf. It says in verse 6 that all one needs is faith. One can assess one's own faith, but how does one assess the faith of say a Mr. Joseph Smith? I know I'm not perfect. My faith has grown, but I've been tempted. I would not hold myself up as the model christian. But I do believe GOD works around my problem areas and repairs them.

[Islander]

Let me ask you if you feel James 1:5 only applies to Mr. Joseph Smith? This verse doesn't mention that one needs someone to ask GOD on his behalf. It says in verse 6 that all one needs is faith. One can assess one's own faith, but how does one assess the faith of say a Mr. Joseph Smith? I know I'm not perfect. My faith has grown, but I've been tempted. I would not hold myself up as the model christian. But I do believe GOD works around my problem areas and repairs them.

I am not sure if you just don't read the posts in detail before you reply or if opposition is just middle name. We are ALL in the service of God, regardless of our inadequacies and imperfections for we are perfected in Him by His grace and thru faith in His name.

The passage in James provided for Joseph a starting point. He found in that bible passage something that pointed him in the right direction. It led him to believe that if he prayed to God for clarity and insight He would reveal to him His will. Joseph was expecting an answer and he received one. The revelation changed everything.

The rest of the people at the time continued as usual; confused, divided, unsure. The point is that although we read the same bible for 2000 years, there are multiple interpretations of the same passages leading to a host of denominations, theologies and profound differences. So, since the bible proved to be of limited value when it came to discerning the truth, revelation from God MUST be the ultimate arbiter of such truth.

[LittleNipper]

I am not sure if you just don't read the posts in detail before you reply or if opposition is just middle name. We are ALL in the service of God, regardless of our inadequacies and imperfections for we are perfected in Him by His grace and thru faith in His name.

The passage in James provided for Joseph a starting point. He found in that bible passage something that pointed him in the right direction. It led him to believe that if he prayed to God for clarity and insight He would reveal to him His will. Joseph was expecting an answer and he received one. The revelation changed everything.

The rest of the people at the time continued as usual; confused, divided, unsure. The point is that although we read the same bible for 2000 years, there are multiple interpretations of the same passages leading to a host of denominations, theologies and profound differences. So, since the bible proved to be of limited value when it came to discerning the truth, revelation from God MUST be the ultimate arbiter of such truth.

Sir, you know and I know that TODAY there are even more interpretaions and profound differences than in the time of Mr. Smith. There are even differences among LDS.

The truth is that GOD is glorified not in the strengths of man but in his weaknesses. Man may learn to let his faith rest in GOD and GOD's provision for salvation, rather than in man's rituals and "understanding," if man doesn't feel he knows it all.

I for one would question anyone who claims to have all the answers, unless that person is GOD. The Bible is not of "limited value," but man often is not interested in what it actually says, but what he wished it said or wanted it to say...

Edited February 20, 2009 by LittleNipper

[Guest tomk]

Let me ask you if you feel James 1:5 only applies to Mr. Joseph Smith? This verse doesn't mention that one needs someone to ask GOD on his behalf. It says in verse 6 that all one needs is faith. One can assess one's own faith, but how does one assess the faith of say a Mr. Joseph Smith? I know I'm not perfect. My faith has grown, but I've been tempted. I would not hold myself up as the model christian. But I do believe GOD works around my problem areas and repairs them.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Here is the process:

1) We lack wisdom.

2) We ask God in faith (we ask with a hear that is willing to both plead and act upon what God reveals)

Anyone can follow this process. It was not just for Joseph Smith.

And this is what Joseph did. He went into the woods to ask God which church to join. He intended to join the church God revealed was His church. God's response was to join none of them. Through process of time, and many visits from heavenly messengers, coupled with periods where his faithfulness was tried - Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, another witness of Jesus Christ.

God assessed the faith of Joseph Smith, and found it sufficient to open the heavens and reveal His reality to Joseph Smith.

[bytor2112]

I think these scriptures clearly show that we the children of God....literally his offspring.

Acts 17:29

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Psalm 82:6

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Matthew 6:9

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 5:48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ephesians 4:6

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[Islander]

Sir, you know and I know that TODAY there are even more interpretaions and profound differences than in the time of Mr. Smith. There are even differences among LDS.

The truth is that GOD is glorified not in the strengths of man but in his weaknesses. Man may learn to let his faith rest in GOD and GOD's provision for salvation, rather than in man's rituals and "understanding," if man doesn't feel he knows it all.

I for one would question anyone who claims to have all the answers, unless that person is GOD. The Bible is not of "limited value," but man often is not interested in what it actually says, but what he wished it said or wanted it to say...

Dude:

You are not reading the posts. Here is what I am saying:

The rest of the people at the time continued as usual; confused, divided, unsure. The point is that although we read the same bible for 2000 years, there are multiple interpretations of the same passages leading to a host of denominations, theologies and profound differences. So, since the bible proved to be of limited value when it came to discerning the truth, revelation from God MUST be the ultimate arbiter of such truth.

If YOU or ME want to know what a specific verse says, we should ask GOD to reveal to our heart thru the spirit what it means. We should not go the so-called teachers of religion for an explanation. They have no greater claim on the scripture.

But prophets do know. GOD reveals to them HIS will so that they may point the way and warn the people. Now it is up to you to find out if a prophet is real or not. Most people have a very hard time discerning such spiritual truths for their hearts are seared and their eyes clouded with the knowledge of man and the understanding of man.

I will not reply any longer to your postings since it is obvious you did not come hear to learn, to inquire or even to share what you know which in many ways intersect with what we believe. You are free to believe what you may. Prophets died by the hands of the unbelievers whom, in turn, thought they knew the will of God and closed their ears to the truth and revelation of God thru His messengers. You are not the first not will you be the last.

1 Kgs. 19: 10 (Rom. 11: 3) I only, am left, and they seek my life.

2 Kgs. 17: 14 Notwithstanding they would not hear.

2 Chr. 24: 21 they conspired against him, and stoned him.

2 Chr. 36: 16 they mocked the messengers of God.

Isa. 30: 10 Prophesy not unto us right things.

Jer. 1: 19 they shall fight against thee.

Jer. 11: 19 (Jer. 18: 18) they had devised devices against me.

Jer. 11: 21 men . . . that seek thy life.

Jer. 12: 6 thy brethren . . . have dealt treacherously with thee.

Jer. 26: 8 people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die.

Jer. 37: 15 wroth with Jeremiah . . . and put him in prison.

Jer. 44: 5 they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear.

Ezek. 20: 49 they say of me, Doth he not speak parables.

Matt. 5: 12 (Luke 6: 23; 3 Ne. 12: 12) so persecuted they the prophets.

Matt. 10: 41 receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet.

Matt. 13: 57 (Mark 6: 4; Luke 4: 24; John 4: 44) prophet is not without honour, save in his own country.

Matt. 21: 35 beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

Matt. 23: 31 children of them which killed the prophets.

Matt. 23: 37 (Luke 13: 34) Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets.

Luke 11: 50 blood of all the prophets, which was shed.

Luke 13: 33 it cannot be that a prophet perish.

Luke 16: 31 If they hear not Moses and the prophets.

Acts 7: 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted.

1 Thes. 2: 15 killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets.

Heb. 11: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder.

Rev. 16: 6 have shed the blood of saints and prophets.

1 Ne. 1: 20 Jews . . . sought his life.

1 Ne. 3: 18 (1 Ne. 7: 14; Ether 11: 2, 22) they have rejected the words of the prophets.

1 Ne. 19: 7 hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

2 Ne. 26: 3 they perish because they cast out the prophets.

Mosiah 7: 26 prophet of the Lord have they slain.

Alma 15: 16 Amulek . . . being rejected.

Alma 37: 30 they murdered all the prophets.

Hel. 13: 25 we would not have slain the prophets.

3 Ne. 28: 34 wo be unto him that will not hearken unto . . . them whom he hath chosen and sent.

Ether 7: 24 people did revile against the prophets.

Ether 8: 25 they have murdered the prophets.

[blusun7]

i ditto that.

Thats why god doesn't give signs of truth when we ask.

Cause we have proof and still deny it as children.

Imagine if we all heeded to his truth and laws. This world would be a marvelous place...

[Maxel]

EDIT: Just saw your other post on the Nicene Creed, LittleNipper- I'm moving my comments to that thread.

Thank you for your thoughts and comments on the Nicene Creed, LittleNipper. As this thread is about the Trinity, I wonder if you would like to discuss the Athanasian Creed (as it is the Creed that most fully lays down the traditional Christian view of the nature of God)?

Edited February 22, 2009 by Maxel
Moving comments to another thread

[LittleNipper]

I think these scriptures clearly show that we the children of God....literally his offspring.

Acts 17:29

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Psalm 82:6

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Matthew 6:9

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 5:48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ephesians 4:6

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One might just wish to consider the strong possibility that each of these verses were written for a specific audience. For example, the Psalms were written with a chosen people in mind. The Our Father was given to CHRIST's disciples. Ephesians 4:6 was a letter directed to a group of churched christians and so on. These verses were seemingly never meant to be all inclusive. At least that is my take on them.

[john doe]

So, you are saying that only those whom they were specifically addessing were children of God? The rest of the world are (were) .............. what, then?

[LittleNipper]

So, you are saying that only those whom they were specifically addessing were children of God? The rest of the world are (were) .............. what, then?

What I saying is that GOD was specifically speaking to select people. That doesn't mean that others like us have nothing to learn or that GOD may not speak to individuals through HIS WORD. BUT, that would certainly mean that GOD was/is not speaking to everyone inclusively. We are not all GOD's childern. Only those that are following HIM are HIS sheep. That is my take.

[LittleNipper]

Dude:

You are not reading the posts. Here is what I am saying:

The rest of the people at the time continued as usual; confused, divided, unsure. The point is that although we read the same bible for 2000 years, there are multiple interpretations of the same passages leading to a host of denominations, theologies and profound differences. So, since the bible proved to be of limited value when it came to discerning the truth, revelation from God MUST be the ultimate arbiter of such truth.

If YOU or ME want to know what a specific verse says, we should ask GOD to reveal to our heart thru the spirit what it means. We should not go the so-called teachers of religion for an explanation. They have no greater claim on the scripture.

But prophets do know. GOD reveals to them HIS will so that they may point the way and warn the people. Now it is up to you to find out if a prophet is real or not. Most people have a very hard time discerning such spiritual truths for their hearts are seared and their eyes clouded with the knowledge of man and the understanding of man.

I will not reply any longer to your postings since it is obvious you did not come hear to learn, to inquire or even to share what you know which in many ways intersect with what we believe. You are free to believe what you may. Prophets died by the hands of the unbelievers whom, in turn, thought they knew the will of God and closed their ears to the truth and revelation of God thru His messengers. You are not the first not will you be the last.

1 Kgs. 19: 10 (Rom. 11: 3) I only, am left, and they seek my life.

2 Kgs. 17: 14 Notwithstanding they would not hear.

2 Chr. 24: 21 they conspired against him, and stoned him.

2 Chr. 36: 16 they mocked the messengers of God.

Isa. 30: 10 Prophesy not unto us right things.

Jer. 1: 19 they shall fight against thee.

Jer. 11: 19 (Jer. 18: 18) they had devised devices against me.

Jer. 11: 21 men . . . that seek thy life.

Jer. 12: 6 thy brethren . . . have dealt treacherously with thee.

Jer. 26: 8 people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die.

Jer. 37: 15 wroth with Jeremiah . . . and put him in prison.

Jer. 44: 5 they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear.

Ezek. 20: 49 they say of me, Doth he not speak parables.

Matt. 5: 12 (Luke 6: 23; 3 Ne. 12: 12) so persecuted they the prophets.

Matt. 10: 41 receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet.

Matt. 13: 57 (Mark 6: 4; Luke 4: 24; John 4: 44) prophet is not without honour, save in his own country.

Matt. 21: 35 beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

Matt. 23: 31 children of them which killed the prophets.

Matt. 23: 37 (Luke 13: 34) Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets.

Luke 11: 50 blood of all the prophets, which was shed.

Luke 13: 33 it cannot be that a prophet perish.

Luke 16: 31 If they hear not Moses and the prophets.

Acts 7: 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted.

1 Thes. 2: 15 killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets.

Heb. 11: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder.

Rev. 16: 6 have shed the blood of saints and prophets.

1 Ne. 1: 20 Jews . . . sought his life.

1 Ne. 3: 18 (1 Ne. 7: 14; Ether 11: 2, 22) they have rejected the words of the prophets.

1 Ne. 19: 7 hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

2 Ne. 26: 3 they perish because they cast out the prophets.

Mosiah 7: 26 prophet of the Lord have they slain.

Alma 15: 16 Amulek . . . being rejected.

Alma 37: 30 they murdered all the prophets.

Hel. 13: 25 we would not have slain the prophets.

3 Ne. 28: 34 wo be unto him that will not hearken unto . . . them whom he hath chosen and sent.

Ether 7: 24 people did revile against the prophets.

Ether 8: 25 they have murdered the prophets.

I would turn to a brother in CHRIST who might understand the original Hebrew/Greek for clarity. Clearly you turn to to those that place their faith in Mr. Smith's teachings.

[bytor2112]

What I saying is that GOD was specifically speaking to select people. That doesn't mean that others like us have nothing to learn or that GOD may not speak to individuals through HIS WORD. BUT, that would certainly mean that GOD was/is not speaking to everyone inclusively. We are not all GOD's childern. Only those that are following HIM are HIS sheep. That is my take.

So, you don't even believe the words of Holy Writ??? Why is it so difficult to understand that we are God's children? Are you repelled by the idea?

We are his children, and we are governed by his laws and are subject to his chastisement, all of which caused Paul to say: "We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9).

[bytor2112]

I would turn to a brother in CHRIST who might understand the original Hebrew/Greek for clarity. Clearly you turn to to those that place their faith in Mr. Smith's teachings.

Are we not brother's in Christ, Little nipper? Are you saying that only someone learned in Hebrew/Greek can accurately interpret scripture? If so, where does that really leave you?

[LittleNipper]

So, you don't even believe the words of Holy Writ??? Why is it so difficult to understand that we are God's children? Are you repelled by the idea?

We are his children, and we are governed by his laws and are subject to his chastisement, all of which caused Paul to say: "We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9).

I certainly believe I am an adopted son of GOD as is spoken of in Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23 & 9:4. I'm not a child of the devil as spoken in the Holy Writ John 6:70 & Acts 10:38.

And since I'm adopted and GOD love me just as much as HE would HIS own SON, I GOD's child... Or at least that is what I see.

But you must understand that I respect to whom the scripture is being addressed. GOD certainly never said all humanity is HIS children. And certainly JESUS is GOD's only begotten SON --- as far the Bible reads... It is always a matter of context.

[bytor2112]

I certainly believe I am an adopted son of GOD as is spoken of in Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23 & 9:4. I'm not a child of the devil as spoken in the Holy Writ John 6:70 & Acts 10:38.

And since I'm adopted and GOD love me just as much as HE would HIS own SON, I GOD's child... Or at least that is what I see.

But you must understand that I respect to whom the scripture is being addressed. GOD certainly never said all humanity is HIS children. And certainly JESUS is GOD's only begotten SON --- as far the Bible reads... It is always a matter of context.

So, how do you view those in the world who are not Christian? Children? Muslims and Buddhists and Jews? What is there relationship to God? Are they his......pets?

A favorite quote of mine...."the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit." It is a very true statement. Perhaps, some sincere prayer and pondering might shed a bit more light on the subject. Why do you think we live in families? Why are children so vitally important to us? Our lives....in family units....is a kind of snapshot of how God lives...our Heavenly Father.

What happens to those who do not hear about Christ? Children who die without the knowledge of Christ? Are you suggesting that each of the scriptures I quoted only pertained to the listening audience of the time???????? "our God, and Father of All"....doesn't mean...Father of all??? What then does it mean?

[LittleNipper]

So, how do you view those in the world who are not Christian? Children? Muslims and Buddhists and Jews? What is there relationship to God? Are they his......pets?

A favorite quote of mine...."the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit." It is a very true statement. Perhaps, some sincere prayer and pondering might shed a bit more light on the subject. Why do you think we live in families? Why are children so vitally important to us? Our lives....in family units....is a kind of snapshot of how God lives...our Heavenly Father.

What happens to those who do not hear about Christ? Children who die without the knowledge of Christ? Are you suggesting that each of the scriptures I quoted only pertained to the listening audience of the time???????? "our God, and Father of All"....doesn't mean...Father of all??? What then does it mean?

I find that biblically, there seems to be special care provided to the little ones (see Matthew 18:10). However, once a person becomes responsible, then without CHRIST, I'd have to say that person is lost. CHRIST comes and knocks, but HE does not beat the door down. Anyone who is searching will find. Those not looking are judged already... It seems to me that "Father of all," in this case simply means the the point of origin." CREATOR

[Islander]

I find that biblically, there seems to be special care provided to the little ones (see Matthew 18:10). However, once a person becomes responsible, then without CHRIST, I'd have to say that person is lost. CHRIST comes and knocks, but HE does not beat the door down. Anyone who is searching will find. Those not looking are judged already... It seems to me that "Father of all," in this case simply means the the point of origin." CREATOR

So, according to your brand of "Christianity" the billions that, thru no fault of their own, have gone to their graves without knowing the true God and His Son Jesus Christ as the means of salvation are lost? It would benefit you a couple of semesters in world history. You know a lot less than you claim and understand even less about the the tender mercies, the fairness, the justice, the righteousness and infinite reach of the Atonement of the Savior.

It is obvious that for you the bible is literal when it suits you and is not when it doesn't.

[LittleNipper]

So, according to your brand of "Christianity" the billions that, thru no fault of their own, have gone to their graves without knowing the true God and His Son Jesus Christ as the means of salvation are lost? It would benefit you a couple of semesters in world history. You know a lot less than you claim and understand even less about the the tender mercies, the fairness, the justice, the righteousness and infinite reach of the Atonement of the Savior.

It is obvious that for you the bible is literal when it suits you and is not when it doesn't.

You need to prove this biblically. saying this counts for very little.

[Islander]

You need to prove this biblically. saying this counts for very little.

Dude:

We have been down this road before. You already made up your mind and no amount of biblical reference will change that. You just refused to be confused by the facts. Out of 3 dozen pages, you have not accepted ANY argument set forth by many in the forum. you just hold on to the mast of you ship, never mind it is sinking. Scripture is ONLY acceptable to you when it suits you, if not you just shrug it off.

I fail to see the benefit of being here since you are a self proclaimed erudite.

[LittleNipper]

Dude:

We have been down this road before. You already made up your mind and no amount of biblical reference will change that. You just refused to be confused by the facts. Out of 3 dozen pages, you have not accepted ANY argument set forth by many in the forum. you just hold on to the mast of you ship, never mind it is sinking. Scripture is ONLY acceptable to you when it suits you, if not you just shrug it off.

I fail to see the benefit of being here since you are a self proclaimed erudite.

Are we both not going down the same road? Perhaps in opposite directions. :) The benefit is Bible study, which is ALWAYS a plus and never a minus. Perhaps you need a more positive outlook and not strive so hard in the defence of prophets who GOD defends and never asked anyone to defend....