Obtaining Spiritual Highs

[yaanufs]

Let me put this before you guys and see if it is a topic that has any merit for discussion. It may die a death as I may be the only person in the world wierd enough to even ponder such stuff

I'm trying to decide what type of approach is more likely to obtain a spiritual high. I'm not talking about coming a way from a meeting and thinking that was a good speaker and you 'felt' the spirit. I'm meaning more profound experiences, that are beyond the average (whatever the value of average may mean to an individual person).

I can accept if someone thinks the ideal approach to obtaining these spiritual highs would be to be obedient with exactness to the do not commandments and extremely proactive in fulfilling many of the doing commandments. By that I mean things like service, personal and family scripture reading, prayer, home teaching, callings, etc, etc.

But I'm trying to consider the 'real' world so here are a couple of approaches that I'm interested in debating.

Approach 1 would be the kind of person for whom obedience with exactness to the do nots is paramount. They view everything as black and white and feel guilt when they violate any type of commandment. They seem the type of person who is so focussed on the obedience part and the related guilt that they fulfill do commandments more out of duty than any real feeling of love of expectation. Not breaking the do not commandments is more important to this person.

Approach 2 would be the kind of person for whom obedience with exactness to the do nots is NOT paramount. They see some commandments as black and white but many are considered to fall into a grey area and should the circumstances arise some lines can be crossed into the grey area between absolute right and absolute wrong. Some may consider this a clear example of justification of small sins. This person is generally happy with their life and the church as long as they are not being lectured by 'well meaning' members about obedience with exactness. They are the type of person for whom the doing commandments are considered far more important. Service is frequent, scripture study is always performed, prayers are said, temple attendance is frequent. This person fulfills these things out of love and enjoyment. Fulfilling the do parts of their religion is more important than obedience with exactness to all things.

Any thoughts on whom is more likely to obtain a spiritual high in their life? I don't have an answer I just got thinking about it and wondered if anyone else has any views that I can debate with. I realise the musings I've thrown down do not perhaps make 100% sense but if the thread has any legs we may manage to clarify stuff.

[Blessed]

I was thinking this same thing this morning while getting ready for church. weird.

I have had a few spiritual highs in my life where I walked away knowing that God is God. I felt so humbled to have been apart of them. I got to second guessing them... flesh, I guess... wondering "why me?" I have come to the conclusion "why not me?" I am a child of God... a child of the Infinite, Jehovah, Lord Omnipotent. I have been called by Him. He said "greater things shall ye do..."

WHy not me? Why not you? We are all entitled to walk in the promises of the Lord. It takes but three things: faith, hope and love.

It happens to us all the time... the same oppurtunities. The thing is do we see them? Or are we busy with life... play off games, taking junior to boy scouts, baking the next cake for the bake sale... sure these things are important, but what we make important takes precedence over everything else OR everyone else.

I know in my own life... God gets more leftovers than anything else. No one else to blame but me and my selfishness. COuld more happen? Yes. Choice is up to us. God is always there to show He IS.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Blessed@Jan 9 2005, 06:33 PM

I know in my own life... God gets more leftovers than anything else. No one else to blame but me and my selfishness. COuld more happen? Yes. Choice is up to us. God is always there to show He IS.

So is that option 1, or option 2, or is it both option 1 & 2?

We are all entitled but who is more likely to receive?

[Blessed]

We are all equally likely to receive... we just don't take that which is set before us.

[yaanufs]

So the person that regularly crosses the line into the grey area of obedience, 'enjoys' life and serves with love is in the same boat as the uptight person who serves well but out of guilt and duty?

That is a nice fence you have there can I join you on it?

[Jenda]

I slightly disagree with the opening premise of who falls into what category. It is actually the categories I don't agree with. I would probably fall into the Approach 1 category, although I do not do it out of duty or guilt. I do it because I have felt the abundant love of the merciful Lord, and feel that that is how He leads me to believe.

In my life, I lived Approach 1 for several years then gradually evolved into Approach 2. However, for me, the further I got into Approach 2, the less I felt the presence of the Lord guiding me. It was only through consciously deciding to move my life back to Approach 1 that I found the continuous presence of the Lord in my life again. Since returning to Approach 1, the lows have been lower, but the highs have been much higher. I realize that there are shades of gray in life, but I believe that there is a way to live life knowing it is shades of gray, but seeing it in black and white. It makes our compassion much deeper, I believe.

Did that make any sense to anyone else?

[Blessed]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 9 2005, 07:21 PM

So the person that regularly crosses the line into the grey area of obedience, 'enjoys' life and serves with love is in the same boat as the uptight person who serves well but out of guilt and duty?

That is a nice fence you have there can I join you on it?

It is a long fence. I think there is room, but I will scoot over for ya.

[StrawberryFields]

When I first read the question I thought of something different.

I believe in opposition so in order to have spiritual highs you need to have had spiritual lows. As I see it in my life it is somewhat of a stairs pattern with me climbing forward. Occasionally I might have to go down a step before reaching the next level but when I do I have a strong foundation supporting me.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 9 2005, 07:28 PM

Did that make any sense to anyone else?

It made sense.

But I think you are positioning yourself in the top category that I was avoiding discussing. It covers obedience with exactness to the do not commandments and willing, joyful fulfilment of the service type commandments. The ideal place to be so to speak.

The other two approaches are not as perfect as that.

One is obedient but gives service through duty, fear or guilt. Two is not 100% obedient to the 'lesser' commandments but gives generous and love filled service.

I'm not trying to double guess which one is going to heaven, but trying to see if one approach makes a person more likely to experience significant spiritual events in your life. Is the key thing to having spiritual experiences obedience with exactness, or is it generous service in the kingdom? Do Christians who wish great spiritual outpourings need to worry less about focusing on the detail of little commandments or do they need to focus more on loving service?

Is a person who is more relaxed about life, rather than the uptight person more likely to receive spiritual experiences?

Is a person who is more involved in service of others than in ensuring their own salvation more likely to receive spiritual experiences? It's the old, "if you want God to guide your footsteps, you first need to move your feet", issue.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 9 2005, 08:58 PM

When I first read the question I thought of something different.

I believe in opposition so in order to have spiritual highs you need to have had spiritual lows. As I see it in my life it is somewhat of a stairs pattern with me climbing forward. Occasionally I might have to go down a step before reaching the next level but when I do I have a strong foundation supporting me.

Thinking of something different is always welcome.

Your description may be accurate for the majority of Christians but I'm trying to get a handle on significant, way above average spiritual experiences. I feel your view is of steady progression in the right direction, I'm thinking along the lines of visits from angels, seeing the face of Christ, etc, completely life changing experiences, not really additions to existing experiences.

Big step changes from previous experiences.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Jan 10 2005, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Jan 10 2005, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 9 2005, 08:58 PM

When I first read the question I thought of something different.

I believe in opposition so in order to have spiritual highs you need to have had spiritual lows. As I see it in my life it is somewhat of a stairs pattern with me climbing forward. Occasionally I might have to go down a step before reaching the next level but when I do I have a strong foundation supporting me.

Thinking of something different is always welcome.

Your description may be accurate for the majority of Christians but I'm trying to get a handle on significant, way above average spiritual experiences. I feel your view is of steady progression in the right direction, I'm thinking along the lines of visits from angels, seeing the face of Christ, etc, completely life changing experiences, not really additions to existing experiences.

Big step changes from previous experiences.

Although I have not yet seen the actual face of Christ, I have had life changing experiences based on my spiritual experiences. I don't believe in placing people into categories like these and that is the reason I chose not to slide into one of those categories. I believe that placing people into certain categories limits their progress. Still it comes back to opposition in all things to me.

Yes, and I also believe in the line upon line, precept upon precept, way of progression in the gospel.

You mention a way above average spiritual experience...Have you had this?

[yaanufs]

I don't believe in placing people into categories like these and that is the reason I chose not to slide into one of those categories.

But that does not mean you cannot discuss the principle in abstract non-specific to any person terms.

I believe that placing people into certain categories limits their progress.

Of course, but there is another side of the coin. Placing a person in a category that is way above their current level may actually inspire them to aim for that level, rather than sit at their current position. Actually helping their progress rather than limiting.

Yes, and I also believe in the line upon line, precept upon precept, way of progression in the gospel.

I can't argue with that approach. I'm just trying to have a discussion about the more unusual, where people get significant spiritual experiences and make massive leaps in their gospel understanding.

I'm not trying to identify what the experiences are but to try and see if folks here have a view on the type of person I've listed in the thread. Or perhaps they have another character stereotype they can put into the melting pot for discussion and consideration.

You mention a way above average spiritual experience...Have you had this?

Why? Is it relevant to this thread?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 10 2005, 09:34 AM

You mention a way above average spiritual experience...Have you had this?

Why? Is it relevant to this thread?

The reason I felt it was relevant is because you denounced the method I described and you classify it with the majority of Christians. You said that you were looking for spiritual experiences that are way above the normal spiritual experiences and I felt that you must have something specific in mind based on your own spiritual experience.

I can sense that I am causing you frustration so I will allow you to have your discussion the way in which you have laid it out.

[yaanufs]

The reason I felt it was relevant is because you denounced the method I described and you classify it with the majority of Christians.

I classify LDS as Christians if that helps. I do not denounce your method, I think it is the standard way to progress and as such there is nothing at all wrong with it. As a personal plan for spiritual development it works well.

I'm just trying to discuss a different way, a way that involves more spiritual highs, bigger experiences, more wow type stuff. I've already mentioned seeing angels, face of Christ as some obvious examples and there are probably a whole bunch of others too. I have nothing specific in mind regarding what is a significant spiritual experience as that was not the purpose of my thread.

I'm just trying to get a feel for peoples views on what type of person is more open to such experiences and what type of person is more likely to be in a position to be offered a big spiritual experience from God.

You said that you were looking for spiritual experiences that are way above the normal spiritual experiences

Actually I never said I was looking for great spiritual experiences just a view on who might be more likely to receive one. This whole thing is is just a thought that I had that might have made for some interesting discussion. Maybe it was just me that thought that

Most people on other forums I frequent blame wierd threads on alcohol, I can't use that excuse

I can sense that I am causing you frustration

Your 'Spidey Sense' is failing you then. I'm not frustrated at all. I realise it is an abstract thought I've thrown out and as such it is difficult for me to get across in words what I'm thinking, that makes it even more difficult for someone reading my ramblings to get a good grip on what I'm pondering.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 10 2005, 10:25 AM

I'm just trying to discuss a different way, a way that involves more spiritual highs, bigger experiences, more wow type stuff. I've already mentioned seeing angels, face of Christ as some obvious examples and there are probably a whole bunch of others too.

I'm just trying to get a feel for peoples views on what type of person is more open to such experiences and what type of person is more likely to be in a position to be offered a big spiritual experience from God.

We have different opinions on this.

I don't believe an obedient person is more inclined to receive a BIG sprigtail experience then someone who is living in sin. I believe that life changing experiences happen to everyone. Whether we take note to what they are determines our outcome.

Say a drunk in the streets of any town USA staggers into the street and a driver from an on coming car notices him in just enough time to hit the breaks. The drunk falls into the road from his delayed reaction of jumping back from the car and saw his life flash before him. He realizes that he didn't actually die...just almost. He has had a potentionally life changing experience but will he see it for what it is and change?

Who needs these experiences? I think we all do no matter where we are on the fence. I believe that the lord loves and blesses us all, what we do is up to us.

I received an awesome plague for Christmas.

"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are; it's our choices."

We can choose to act upon these experiences or not no matter where we are on the fence.

[yaanufs]

We have different opinions on this.

I hope so. There is no discussion if we all agreed on everything.

I don't believe an obedient person is more inclined to receive a BIG sprigtail experience then someone who is living in sin.

That would go along with the scriptural examples of big spiritual experiences. Which is why I got to thinking is there a type of person more likely to receive such a thing.

I believe that the lord loves and blesses us all, what we do is up to us.

It seems to me that what you are saying is that everybody gets big spiritual experiences but not everybody notices. Only those that make the effort to notice will gain from them.

Continuing my theme then, but altering it somewhat to address your position, is there a type of person who is more likely to notice a big spiritual experience? The rigidly obedient type or the person who bends a few rules but gives more service?

I would have to add that I question if it was such a big spiritual experience if a person can miss it.

[Blessed]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 10 2005, 12:08 PM

We have different opinions on this.

I hope so. There is no discussion if we all agreed on everything.

I don't believe an obedient person is more inclined to receive a BIG sprigtail experience then someone who is living in sin.

That would go along with the scriptural examples of big spiritual experiences. Which is why I got to thinking is there a type of person more likely to receive such a thing.

I believe that the lord loves and blesses us all, what we do is up to us.

It seems to me that what you are saying is that everybody gets big spiritual experiences but not everybody notices. Only those that make the effort to notice will gain from them.

Continuing my theme then, but altering it somewhat to address your position, is there a type of person who is more likely to notice a big spiritual experience? The rigidly obedient type or the person who bends a few rules but gives more service?

I would have to add that I question if it was such a big spiritual experience if a person can miss it.

I had said the same thing as SF did, yanuffs. I think you are so interested in sharing what you think the right way is that you aren't paying attention to what we think.

What we are saying is we are ALL given the same oppurtunities... ALL of us no matter what we do... we just are missing them because we fail to see them. It is when we are in tune with Him that we can participate in His glory. It doesn't mean we have to go to church. We can be at church to experience them or at a bus stop. You can be Gordon Hinckley or a strung out drug user.

God is God to each of us. He will reveal Himself to whom He will. Are WE paying attention to that?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 10 2005, 12:08 PM

It seems to me that what you are saying is that everybody gets big spiritual experiences but not everybody notices. Only those that make the effort to notice will gain from them.

I would have to add that I question if it was such a big spiritual experience if a person can miss it.

I believe that many people do get these experiences but they choose to think of them as a phenomenon, or as something strange or the like. I believe in order to take something as a spiritual experience you have to know that there is a lesson to be learned here for our own betterment and that the lesson is coming from Him.

Just a little off topic for a minute if I may...

I also believe that life has a way of teaching us all lessons. If we choose not to take what we learned from a specific lesson we will most likely repeat that mistake and have that lesson brought to our forefront once again. Simple example, fire will burn you. A tougher one is what you give out to others will come back to you. If you want kindness you first have to give it.

[yaanufs]

I think you are so interested in sharing what you think the right way is that you aren't paying attention to what we think.

I don't follow. I've already modified my thoughts to take account of what SF has added to the discussion. SFs comments have been interesting as they turn the idea around pretty much 180 degrees. You also assume I had a complete thought pattern in place before I posted, when in actuality I didn't. I posted to see if a discussion would bring more ideas to the table and that it would help fill in some more of a random set of thoughts I had yesterday.

So far SF has added a very valid point and I welcome it.

What we are saying is we are ALL given the same oppurtunities... ALL of us no matter what we do... we just are missing them because we fail to see them.

I can see your position and the only issue I have with it is that the spiritual experience can't have been very powerful if someone can fail to see it. For example who would have failed to notice the experience of Joseph Smith in the grove?

So my question remains unanswered. Who is more likely to receive or notice a significant spiritual message from God?

He will reveal Himself to whom He will.

I guess this is a logical extension to the first question. If God has decided who he will give the great spiritual experiences to is there nothing we can do to obtain them? Is there any point in trying to obtain such a manifestation from God, or should we be content with the line-upon-line evolution of our spirituality?

[Cal]

A little research will reveal that people in all religions experience "spiritual highs". They also report that such highs reinforce their belief in their religion. Does experiencing a spiritual high give evidence that one is in the only true religion? If so, there must be a lot of "only true" religions out there.

Personally, one of the biggest spiritual highs I experienced was when I saw the movie "Ghandi". I'm not sure why, but I did. I also have experienced them in church, at football games and when I heard the star spangled banner sung by Whitney Houston. (I wonder if she has a church?)

[Guest TheProudDuck]

I myself get that "high" watching sentimental baseball movies. I always tear up at the last scene of "The Sandlot," where the announcer's old friend steals home. Don't ask me why.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 10 2005, 12:39 PM

So my question remains unanswered. Who is more likely to receive or notice a significant spiritual message from God?

It could be anyone from any walk of life you just need to be in tune with the spirit, so what ever you need to do to get you there...DO IT. It could be reading the scriptures, offering a heartfelt prayer, or something as simple as getting quiet.

You mention the term a significant spiritual message from God and that is where to confusion might come into play. What is significant to me might not be significant to you. I believe that I receive messages that apply to me and those who are close to me or in my family. I don't believe that the general population of the church receives messages that will change the lives of those who are in the church as a whole. I believe that kind of message will come from the prophet.

[Jenda]

I would just like to say that I had my biggest spiritual experience when I was least worthy. In effect, when I needed it the most. And it was sooo significant, that my life was turned around 180 degrees. It is still with me, 28 years later, and feels as if it happened yesterday.

So, I think that while we can all have awesome spiritual experiences, they will never be as big (or rather, never seem as big) as the first one that draws us out of our sin and out of ourselves. So, what I am saying is that sinners probably have the highest spiritual experiences of all because they are so high above the plain where they are residing at that time. Our spiritual plain is higher than a sinner's, so even though we have awesome experiences, they do not seem as high. (It is a comparative thing.)

Does that make sense to anyone else?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 13 2005, 09:39 PM

I would just like to say that I had my biggest spiritual experience when I was least worthy. In effect, when I needed it the most. And it was sooo significant, that my life was turned around 180 degrees. It is still with me, 28 years later, and feels as if it happened yesterday.

So, I think that while we can all have awesome spiritual experiences, they will never be as big (or rather, never seem as big) as the first one that draws us out of our sin and out of ourselves. So, what I am saying is that sinners probably have the highest spiritual experiences of all because they are so high above the plain where they are residing at that time. Our spiritual plain is higher than a sinner's, so even though we have awesome experiences, they do not seem as high. (It is a comparative thing.)

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Makes perfect sence to me. :)

One more thing I would like to add is the feeling that follows the initial high for me. It's been during these times that have been the easiest for me give my will to my Father In Heaven and walk by faith. That is such a great place to be!

[Blessed]

SO what kind of spiritual highs have we had??? Anyone wanna share?