Obtaining Spiritual Highs

[Cal]

Originally posted by Blessed@Jan 14 2005, 04:31 PM

SO what kind of spiritual highs have we had??? Anyone wanna share?

What distinguishes a "spiritual" high from any other kind of high?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 14 2005, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 14 2005, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Jan 14 2005, 04:31 PM

SO what kind of spiritual highs have we had??? Anyone wanna share?

What distinguishes a "spiritual" high from any other kind of high?

The Holy Spirit.

That God is the first thing on your mind when you have it.

The overwhelming love associated with it.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 14 2005, 07:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 14 2005, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Jan 14 2005, 04:31 PM

SO what kind of spiritual highs have we had??? Anyone wanna share?

What distinguishes a "spiritual" high from any other kind of high?

I think I see a confusing of emotional highs with spiritual highs. They aren't the same thing you know.

[pushka]

Yaanufs...the way in which you word your questions and replies makes me think that you consider some people more deserving of spiritual highs/blessings even, than others...It makes me feel uncomfortable, because I consider what Jesus taught about humility, as if you are saying that you almost 'expect' to get a spiritual high if you live your life in a particular way, and are hoping to get some sort of guidance from the others on here as to how best to do that.

I also wonder if you are expecting these spiritual highs to be recognisably from God so that it strengthens your faith in him? which makes me draw a comparison to you and Thomas (doubting Thomas), the Apostle who wanted proof that Jesus was who he said he was after the Ressurection (sorry about spelling), by touching his wounds. Does anybody else see this thread in that sort of way or is it just me?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 14 2005, 09:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 14 2005, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 14 2005, 06:37 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Jan 14 2005, 04:31 PM

SO what kind of spiritual highs have we had??? Anyone wanna share?

What distinguishes a "spiritual" high from any other kind of high?

The Holy Spirit.

That God is the first thing on your mind when you have it.

The overwhelming love associated with it.

So if I'm on 'shrooms and I think about God and feel love, that is a spiritual high?

[pushka]

LOL

[yaanufs]

Yaanufs...the way in which you word your questions and replies makes me think that you consider some people more deserving of spiritual highs/blessings even, than others...

I guess I do feel that people obedient to the do not commandments and obedient to the do commandments because of love, not guilt, are more likely to receive bigger spiritual experiences. My question was really posted because not all people are as fully righteous as that and I was trying to see if any folks here had a particular view on different types of people and which they thought was more likely to have a big spiritual experience.

It makes me feel uncomfortable, because I consider what Jesus taught about humility, as if you are saying that you almost 'expect' to get a spiritual high if you live your life in a particular way, and are hoping to get some sort of guidance from the others on here as to how best to do that.

Your opinion here is a mile away from the truth. TBH I'm not interested in people here telling me how to live my life. I have zero plans to change on the hope that I might get a significant spiritual experience.

I just thought it was an interesting question that might get a few interesting viewpoints. I was hoping the thread would develop additionaly beyond who might get an experience to what sort of experiences people would consider spiritual highs. There has already been an attempt by someone to go that route but I see little interest.

Not to worry. Not all threads are interesting to anyone but its creator

[pushka]

I think knowing that you have helped somebody who is in need of care, or reassurance, love, a shoulder to cry on even, and seeing them smile as a result is the only 'spiritual high' that you need. Just do good and look after yourself for the sake of it and be satisfied, don't look for rewards.

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 16 2005, 03:26 PM

I think knowing that you have helped somebody who is in need of care, or reassurance, love, a shoulder to cry on even, and seeing them smile as a result is the only 'spiritual high' that you need.  Just do good and look after yourself for the sake of it and be satisfied, don't look for rewards.

I agree completely!

Why do people think they need God to give them "highs"? Where does it say in the scriptures to seek after a "high"? How does seeking after a high differ from simply seeking after any other selfish pursuit? I though Jesus taught us to be engaged in doing good works, caring for the sick and needy, and doing postive unselfish acts. Where does seeking after a "high" come in?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 17 2005, 09:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 17 2005, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 16 2005, 03:26 PM

I think knowing that you have helped somebody who is in need of care, or reassurance, love, a shoulder to cry on even, and seeing them smile as a result is the only 'spiritual high' that you need.  Just do good and look after yourself for the sake of it and be satisfied, don't look for rewards.

I agree completely!

Why do people think they need God to give them "highs"? Where does it say in the scriptures to seek after a "high"? How does seeking after a high differ from simply seeking after any other selfish pursuit? I though Jesus taught us to be engaged in doing good works, caring for the sick and needy, and doing postive unselfish acts. Where does seeking after a "high" come in?

I don't think people "seek" for highs, God gives them to us without our seeking them. And, yes we get good feelings from helping others and following God's commandments, but that is not a "spiritual" feeling. It is a feeling (or attitude) we create in ourselves when we do what God asks of us.

Neither is wrong, so why are you making a big deal of it?

I think the question in the OP was just an attempt at an intellectual discussion about something that is not intellectual.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 16 2005, 01:56 PM

Yaanufs...the way in which you word your questions and replies makes me think that you consider some people more deserving of spiritual highs/blessings even, than others...

I guess I do feel that people obedient to the do not commandments and obedient to the do commandments because of love, not guilt, are more likely to receive bigger spiritual experiences. My question was really posted because not all people are as fully righteous as that and I was trying to see if any folks here had a particular view on different types of people and which they thought was more likely to have a big spiritual experience.

It makes me feel uncomfortable, because I consider what Jesus taught about humility, as if you are saying that you almost 'expect' to get a spiritual high if you live your life in a particular way, and are hoping to get some sort of guidance from the others on here as to how best to do that.

Your opinion here is a mile away from the truth. TBH I'm not interested in people here telling me how to live my life. I have zero plans to change on the hope that I might get a significant spiritual experience.

I just thought it was an interesting question that might get a few interesting viewpoints. I was hoping the thread would develop additionaly beyond who might get an experience to what sort of experiences people would consider spiritual highs. There has already been an attempt by someone to go that route but I see little interest.

Not to worry. Not all threads are interesting to anyone but its creator

The question is, a spiritual high is what?

Is it a moment? Or is it a life style?

And if it is for only a moment, has it changed you towards a life style?

And if it has changed you towards a life style, is it a high or is it a change?

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 10:52 AM

I think the question in the OP was just an attempt at an intellectual discussion about something that is not intellectual.

Or maybe it is too intellectual for this forum

It just seems too haphazard to me. Stuff happens to everyone and it's your fault if you miss it.

If we were talking about the visitation of angels and seeing the face of Christ as happening to everyone then I can understand the negative view of people missing the experience. But we seem to be talking now about little experiences that can easily be dismissed. I was trying to talk about bigger experiences that cannot be dismissed.

[Jenda]

I agree, Amillia. That is one of the differences between "spiritual" highs and "emotional" highs. The spiritual highs create a lasting change for the good. Emotional highs can change you for a short time, but they wear off and there is nothing drawing you onward towards the goal (the goal being living a Christ-like life, or eternal life with God, etc.)

I think the spiritual highs would cause lasting changes, but they, themselves would be passing. I remember the first encounter I had with God. He spoke to me through my brother, the power that emanated from him was almost beyond bearable (for me), but it lasted only a minute or so. But the change has been life-long, and I can feel it as if it were yesterday, though it was really almost 30 years ago. That seems to be how most of my encounters with God have been. I can recall them years later as if they happened very recently.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 08:26 PM

I agree, Amillia. That is one of the differences between "spiritual" highs and "emotional" highs. The spiritual highs create a lasting change for the good. Emotional highs can change you for a short time, but they wear off and there is nothing drawing you onward towards the goal (the goal being living a Christ-like life, or eternal life with God, etc.)

I think the spiritual highs would cause lasting changes, but they, themselves would be passing. I remember the first encounter I had with God. He spoke to me through my brother, the power that emanated from him was almost beyond bearable (for me), but it lasted only a minute or so. But the change has been life-long, and I can feel it as if it were yesterday, though it was really almost 30 years ago. That seems to be how most of my encounters with God have been. I can recall them years later as if they happened very recently.

Jan 18 #3

Exactly. They aren't just a memory. :)

[yaanufs]

Okay, in Summary.

We've had opinions that state that spiritual experiences are constantly coming from God, it's up to people to notice them.

Seeking for these spiritual experiences is considered bad form. But noticing them is good form.

These spiritual experiences people refer to seem to be the fairly low level, common or garden type experiences. Not exceptional experiences or significantly amazing like many mentioned in the scriptures and that occured at the time of Joseph Smith.

No one wishes to divulge any of their spiritual experiences, they are all too personal. It's lucky Joseph Smith didn't feel like that

No one has an opinion on what type of person is more likely to notice these spiritual experiences. The strictly obedient but serves out of fear and guilt person. Or the more 'flexible' to the rules but serves others more often and with love type person. either that is because you all view them as exactly the same level when it comes to spiritual things.

Anything I've missed out ?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 20 2005, 01:06 PM

Okay, in Summary.

We've had opinions that state that spiritual experiences are constantly coming from God, it's up to people to notice them.

Seeking for these spiritual experiences is considered bad form. But noticing them is good form.

These spiritual experiences people refer to seem to be the fairly low level, common or garden type experiences. Not exceptional experiences or significantly amazing like many mentioned in the scriptures and that occured at the time of Joseph Smith.

No one wishes to divulge any of their spiritual experiences, they are all too personal. It's lucky Joseph Smith didn't feel like that

No one has an opinion on what type of person is more likely to notice these spiritual experiences. The strictly obedient but serves out of fear and guilt person. Or the more 'flexible' to the rules but serves others more often and with love type person. either that is because you all view them as exactly the same level when it comes to spiritual things.

Anything I've missed out ?

Mathew Calley had many powerful experiences and he refused to tie himself down to any format or schedule so that he was open to revelation at any given moment.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 08:26 PM

That is one of the differences between "spiritual" highs and "emotional" highs. The spiritual highs create a lasting change for the good. Emotional highs can change you for a short time, but they wear off and there is nothing drawing you onward

On the issue of your definition of spiritual high means lasting change for good and emotional high is a temporary thing.

Many early church brethern were involved in terrific spiritual highs, bigger then any of us have ever experienced I'd suggest. Life changing events. Yet they fell away, it must have been because the effect wore off, or could it be that your definition is a bit too simplistic?

Next example I would use is that of a Heathen Unbeliever who moves into fatherhood. The whole birth experience for him is emotional and sometimes it can make a lasting change for good in his, and his families life. So an emotional experience can give a lasting change for good.

Things are not so black and white when it comes to spirituality. Hence this thread.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 17 2005, 11:21 AM

The question is, a spiritual high is what?

Actually, the question is who is more likely to experience a spiritual high? It always has been in this thread.

[pushka]

'These spiritual experiences people refer to seem to be the fairly low level, common or garden type experiences. Not exceptional experiences or significantly amazing like many mentioned in the scriptures and that occured at the time of Joseph Smith.

No one wishes to divulge any of their spiritual experiences, they are all too personal. It's lucky Joseph Smith didn't feel like that '

(Yaanuf..20th January..sorry forgot to use the 'quote' option)

Just to throw a spanner in the works...being a non-believer of LDS doctrine...and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding the church history etc. What makes you believe that Joseph Smith and the other early church members/leaders really had those kinds of 'spiritual highs'..visitations etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Jan 20 2005, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Jan 20 2005, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 08:26 PM

That is one of the differences between "spiritual" highs and "emotional" highs.  The spiritual highs create a lasting change for the good.  Emotional highs can change you for a short time, but they wear off and there is nothing drawing you onward

On the issue of your definition of spiritual high means lasting change for good and emotional high is a temporary thing.

Many early church brethern were involved in terrific spiritual highs, bigger then any of us have ever experienced I'd suggest. Life changing events. Yet they fell away, it must have been because the effect wore off, or could it be that your definition is a bit too simplistic?

Next example I would use is that of a Heathen Unbeliever who moves into fatherhood. The whole birth experience for him is emotional and sometimes it can make a lasting change for good in his, and his families life. So an emotional experience can give a lasting change for good.

Things are not so black and white when it comes to spirituality. Hence this thread.

I might tend to disagree with your assessment that the early church leaders "fell away". I think that many felt the church fell away, or ceased following God's directions. In that case, they didn't fall away but continued to live as the Lord instructed them.

I also might add that I believe that emotions do accompany spiritual highs, but without the presence of the Holy Spirit making the change permanent, it would be very hard to change your life permanently. And, I might even classify an unbeliever being changed forever by fatherhood as a type of spiritual experience.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 20 2005, 01:43 PM

I might tend to disagree with your assessment that the early church leaders "fell away".  I think that many felt the church fell away, or ceased following God's directions.  In that case, they didn't fall away but continued to live as the Lord instructed them.

You could take that position if you wanted to. It is sn't really important to my original question. Who is more likely to receive (or notice) such spiritual manifestations from God.

And, I might even classify an unbeliever being changed forever by fatherhood as a type of spiritual experience.

You cannot reclassify someone elses experiences for them. If they have no belief in God or spiritual matters then they have had an emotional experience that has changed their life. It has already been said above that a spiritual experience is one that turns you to God and there was lots of agreement with that. This example I have given does not turn a person to God, it just makes them a more responsible person, husband and father.

You can't have it all ways. Choose your position and stick with it.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 20 2005, 01:30 PM

Just to throw a spanner in the works...being a non-believer of LDS doctrine...and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding the church history etc. What makes you believe that Joseph Smith and the other early church members/leaders really had those kinds of 'spiritual highs'..visitations etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?

Since you want to sidetrack the issue and go down this route why dont I show the next logical step in your thinking.

Being a non-believer in God or religion.... and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding religious history etc. What makes you believe that Peter, James and John and the other early church apostles and OT prophets had great spiritual highs ...visitations, visions etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Jan 20 2005, 01:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Jan 20 2005, 01:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 20 2005, 01:43 PM

And, I might even classify an unbeliever being changed forever by fatherhood as a type of spiritual experience.

You cannot reclassify someone elses experiences for them. If they have no belief in God or spiritual matters then they have had an emotional experience that has changed their life. It has already been said above that a spiritual experience is one that turns you to God and there was lots of agreement with that. This example I have given does not turn a person to God, it just makes them a more responsible person, husband and father.

You can't have it all ways. Choose your position and stick with it.

It seems you think that only people already on "speaking terms" with God can have spiritual experiences. How do you think they got that way? They were once "heathen unbelievers" who didn't have any experiences with God to fall back on. People aren't born with spiritual experiences under their belt (or diaper ), there has to be a first one, and often, becoming a parent is that first one.

I have never changed my position. If you looked back through the posts, you will see that I have stated that I believe that "unbelievers" are the ones who can claim the highest spiritual experiences because the plain they started off on is much lower than one who has lived for years in a close relationship with God.

[yaanufs]

It seems you think that only people already on "speaking terms" with God can have spiritual experiences.

Quite the opposite. It is clear from scripture that God has given way above average spiritual experiences to many people who were not in the least bit spiritual. Hence my initial question.

there has to be a first one, and often, becoming a parent is that first one.

If it doesn't lead to God it was emotional, not spiritual, isn't that where this thread seemed to be going? If the person after childbirth still firmly believes in no God, was it a spiritual experience, or was it emotional to them?

People in the scriptures who have seen angels and afterwards are still against God. Are you claiming their experience was only emotional, not spiritual because of the end result?

I have stated that I believe that "unbelievers" are the ones who can claim the highest spiritual experiences because the plain they started off on is much lower than one who has lived for years in a close relationship with God.

I can see where you are coming from with that position, and it is logical, but assuming the person involved was an active member of the church how can they get higher spiritual experiences and what makes it more likely to happen? Or are you claiming there is a limit to the level of a spiritual experience and once you have experienced the same as as someone who is newly starting out, then that is the best it's going to be.

The spiritual experiences stay at a similar level and because you are now more spiritual then you don't notice them as much. That seems a bit backward to me, surely those who are earnestly seeking God and a really putting in a heartfelt effort should be rewarded with great spiritual signs that are more significant than someone who is just starting out on a path of belief? Not just, more and more experiences that are harder and harder to discern from the feelings of indigestion.

[Jenda]

If it doesn't lead to God it was emotional, not spiritual, isn't that where this thread seemed to be going? If the person after childbirth still firmly believes in no God, was it a spiritual experience, or was it emotional to them?

Sometimes, especially if a person has had no experience with God, not even going to church, they may be unaware that what they have experienced is a spiritual experience, and so don't know that they have given their lives to God, even when they have. They just know that they have had a life-changing experience, and are true to it. Then, when they do have the opportunity to come in contact with other spiritual people, they can identify that that is what happened and can put it in the right perspective.