Obtaining Spiritual Highs

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 20 2005, 03:18 PM

Sometimes....

Sure, sometimes.....

[Jenda]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Jan 20 2005, 02:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Jan 20 2005, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 20 2005, 03:18 PM

Sometimes....

Sure, sometimes.....

I believe that that happens more than you think.

[pushka]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Jan 20 2005, 01:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Jan 20 2005, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 20 2005, 01:30 PM

Just to throw a spanner in the works...being a non-believer of LDS doctrine...and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding the church history etc.  What makes you believe that Joseph Smith and the other early church members/leaders really had those kinds of 'spiritual highs'..visitations etc. ?  How do you know it wasn't all made up?

Since you want to sidetrack the issue and go down this route why dont I show the next logical step in your thinking.

Being a non-believer in God or religion.... and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding religious history etc. What makes you believe that Peter, James and John and the other early church apostles and OT prophets had great spiritual highs ...visitations, visions etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?

Did I ever say that I did believe those things? Why do you think I am here...because I used to believe those things without question as a child, and teenager...having been a Catholic and receiving religious instruction all my life, then attending the Mormon church for 5 years..however, as I matured into adulthood, I began questioning all that I had been taught...including those things that I learned about the Mormon church...it took me 20 years or so before I really began looking at websites about the church's history and the inconsistencies...and, before you might be tempted to ask, no I do not still attend the Catholic church either, nor any others. I know the Catholic church has its faults too, and I don't know enough about other religions to comment on them.

So my question still stands...

'surely those who are earnestly seeking God and a really putting in a heartfelt effort should be rewarded with great spiritual signs that are more significant than someone who is just starting out on a path of belief? Not just, more and more experiences that are harder and harder to discern from the feelings of indigestion.' (Yaanufs, 20th Jan 2005)

Why do you continue to feel that you should DESERVE greater spiritual signs than anybody else according to how long you have been a member of the church and on what deeds you do? As pointed out by other posters here, if you believe in God and Jesus and heaven etc. then surely the greatest reward you receive is admittance to heaven (or one of the 3 levels according to your Church). I'm sorry but the way you write makes me think that you believe some people are better than others and should, therefore, have visitations or whatever, and then should shout out to the world about them!!! Isn't that being just a little boastful and proud?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 20 2005, 01:06 PM

These spiritual experiences people refer to seem to be the fairly low level, common or garden type experiences. Not exceptional experiences or significantly amazing like many mentioned in the scriptures and that occured at the time of Joseph Smith.

No one wishes to divulge any of their spiritual experiences, they are all too personal. It's lucky Joseph Smith didn't feel like that

Anything I've missed out ?

My own spiritual experiences have not been the common variety type to me. They have been my experiences and thus meant to only affect me and possibly those close to me. I will say that I personally have had many spiritual experience that have shaped my life and have made a positive change in me These experiences have sent me into the fire for refining many times and I believe that each time I emerge I am a bit more committed to living in a way which I am teachable...like a child.

One of the things I have discovered for myself is that the things I desire the most stay just beyond my reach. Remedy... Put your trust in the Lord to give you what you need each day.

[Amillia]

yaanufs says:The spiritual experiences stay at a similar level and because you are now more spiritual then you don't notice them as much. That seems a bit backward to me, surely those who are earnestly seeking God and a really putting in a heartfelt effort should be rewarded with great spiritual signs that are more significant than someone who is just starting out on a path of belief? Not just, more and more experiences that are harder and harder to discern from the feelings of indigestion.

God is no respector of persons and we do not control him with our behavior or determin what he will give us. Those who seek a sign are considered covenant breakers.

It is all issues of trust, expediency and commitment. What does this scripture mean to you?

D&C 121: 45

45 Let thy abowels• also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let bvirtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the dpresence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the edews• from heaven.

[Amillia]

Look up the key word Expedient in the scripture guide.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 17 2005, 09:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 17 2005, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 17 2005, 09:40 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 16 2005, 03:26 PM

I think knowing that you have helped somebody who is in need of care, or reassurance, love, a shoulder to cry on even, and seeing them smile as a result is the only 'spiritual high' that you need.  Just do good and look after yourself for the sake of it and be satisfied, don't look for rewards.

I agree completely!

Why do people think they need God to give them "highs"? Where does it say in the scriptures to seek after a "high"? How does seeking after a high differ from simply seeking after any other selfish pursuit? I though Jesus taught us to be engaged in doing good works, caring for the sick and needy, and doing postive unselfish acts. Where does seeking after a "high" come in?

I don't think people "seek" for highs, God gives them to us without our seeking them. And, yes we get good feelings from helping others and following God's commandments, but that is not a "spiritual" feeling. It is a feeling (or attitude) we create in ourselves when we do what God asks of us.

Neither is wrong, so why are you making a big deal of it?

I think the question in the OP was just an attempt at an intellectual discussion about something that is not intellectual.

You don't think people seek for highs? Read some of the posts on his thread again. I think one of the questions some people here have is how to achieve it? How is that NOT seeking for a high?

[pushka]

I agree with you Cal...I just can't seem to get that through to Yaanufs!

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 07:26 PM

I agree, Amillia. That is one of the differences between "spiritual" highs and "emotional" highs. The spiritual highs create a lasting change for the good. Emotional highs can change you for a short time, but they wear off and there is nothing drawing you onward towards the goal (the goal being living a Christ-like life, or eternal life with God, etc.)

I think the spiritual highs would cause lasting changes, but they, themselves would be passing. I remember the first encounter I had with God. He spoke to me through my brother, the power that emanated from him was almost beyond bearable (for me), but it lasted only a minute or so. But the change has been life-long, and I can feel it as if it were yesterday, though it was really almost 30 years ago. That seems to be how most of my encounters with God have been. I can recall them years later as if they happened very recently.

Not that your high isn't significant to you...I'm not questioning that. But to say that it wasn't "emotional" is to deny the obvious. Clearly you were motivated--the emotion was strong---strong enough to be remembered years later, but that doesn't mean it wasn't emotional, and therefore distinguished only in intensity rather than in kind.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 23 2005, 11:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 23 2005, 11:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 07:26 PM

I agree, Amillia.  That is one of the differences between "spiritual" highs and "emotional" highs.  The spiritual highs create a lasting change for the good.  Emotional highs can change you for a short time, but they wear off and there is nothing drawing you onward towards the goal (the goal being living a Christ-like life, or eternal life with God, etc.)

I think the spiritual highs would cause lasting changes, but they, themselves would be passing.  I remember the first encounter I had with God.  He spoke to me through my brother, the power that emanated from him was almost beyond bearable (for me), but it lasted only a minute or so.  But the change has been life-long, and I can feel it as if it were yesterday, though it was really almost 30 years ago.  That seems to be how most of my encounters with God have been.  I can recall them years later as if they happened very recently.

Not that your high isn't significant to you...I'm not questioning that. But to say that it wasn't "emotional" is to deny the obvious. Clearly you were motivated--the emotion was strong---strong enough to be remembered years later, but that doesn't mean it wasn't emotional, and therefore distinguished only in intensity rather than in kind.

I already acknowledged that there is emotion involved in spiritual highs (if you re-read the posts between this one you quoted and now, you will see it.) I was, however, attempting to discuss the difference between purely emotional highs and those that are initially induced by the Spirit.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 23 2005, 11:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 23 2005, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jan 17 2005, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 17 2005, 09:40 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 16 2005, 03:26 PM

I think knowing that you have helped somebody who is in need of care, or reassurance, love, a shoulder to cry on even, and seeing them smile as a result is the only 'spiritual high' that you need.  Just do good and look after yourself for the sake of it and be satisfied, don't look for rewards.

I agree completely!

Why do people think they need God to give them "highs"? Where does it say in the scriptures to seek after a "high"? How does seeking after a high differ from simply seeking after any other selfish pursuit? I though Jesus taught us to be engaged in doing good works, caring for the sick and needy, and doing postive unselfish acts. Where does seeking after a "high" come in?

I don't think people "seek" for highs, God gives them to us without our seeking them. And, yes we get good feelings from helping others and following God's commandments, but that is not a "spiritual" feeling. It is a feeling (or attitude) we create in ourselves when we do what God asks of us.

Neither is wrong, so why are you making a big deal of it?

I think the question in the OP was just an attempt at an intellectual discussion about something that is not intellectual.

You don't think people seek for highs? Read some of the posts on his thread again. I think one of the questions some people here have is how to achieve it? How is that NOT seeking for a high?

Maybe it is a matter of semantics. I try to live my life in accordance with what God asks and requires of me. I get an emotional high from doing that. If God chooses to bless me with a spiritual high that is His perogative, and I would be blessed by that. I don't expect it, but it is nice.

[Amillia]

You have to believe.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jan 9 2005, 10:29 AM

Let me put this before you guys and see if it is a topic that has any merit for discussion. It may die a death as I may be the only person in the world wierd enough to even ponder such stuff

I'm trying to decide what type of approach is more likely to obtain a spiritual high. I'm not talking about coming a way from a meeting and thinking that was a good speaker and you 'felt' the spirit. I'm meaning more profound experiences, that are beyond the average (whatever the value of average may mean to an individual person).

I can accept if someone thinks the ideal approach to obtaining these spiritual highs would be to be obedient with exactness to the do not commandments and extremely proactive in fulfilling many of the doing commandments. By that I mean things like service, personal and family scripture reading, prayer, home teaching, callings, etc, etc.

But I'm trying to consider the 'real' world so here are a couple of approaches that I'm interested in debating.

Approach 1 would be the kind of person for whom obedience with exactness to the do nots is paramount. They view everything as black and white and feel guilt when they violate any type of commandment. They seem the type of person who is so focussed on the obedience part and the related guilt that they fulfill do commandments more out of duty than any real feeling of love of expectation. Not breaking the do not commandments is more important to this person.

Approach 2 would be the kind of person for whom obedience with exactness to the do nots is NOT paramount. They see some commandments as black and white but many are considered to fall into a grey area and should the circumstances arise some lines can be crossed into the grey area between absolute right and absolute wrong. Some may consider this a clear example of justification of small sins. This person is generally happy with their life and the church as long as they are not being lectured by 'well meaning' members about obedience with exactness. They are the type of person for whom the doing commandments are considered far more important. Service is frequent, scripture study is always performed, prayers are said, temple attendance is frequent. This person fulfills these things out of love and enjoyment. Fulfilling the do parts of their religion is more important than obedience with exactness to all things.

Any thoughts on whom is more likely to obtain a spiritual high in their life? I don't have an answer I just got thinking about it and wondered if anyone else has any views that I can debate with. I realise the musings I've thrown down do not perhaps make 100% sense but if the thread has any legs we may manage to clarify stuff.

Nots and and do nots really depends upon the heart.

Seeking revelations is possible, infact it is mandatory. Believing, hoping, fasting, praying, pondering, being still and knowing God, out of the clammer of the world brings miraculous experiences.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 23 2005, 12:22 PM

Maybe it is a matter of semantics. I try to live my life in accordance with what God asks and requires of me. I get an emotional high from doing that. If God chooses to bless me with a spiritual high that is His perogative, and I would be blessed by that. I don't expect it, but it is nice.

Jenda I think this is the best way to view any sort of religious/spiritual/emotional highs...don't seek to compare the size and splendour of your experiences to those of others, in a hope that you will have had a better experience than they have...just carry on being a good person, and be good to yourself too, and you will be given whatever 'highs' or 'rewards' God and Jesus have promised you...