Was Eve wise or beguiled? and at which point?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Wether spiritual or physical, death is death. It is eternal captivity (punishment). It was the first judgment (punishment) upon man. It is an "awful monster" as Nephi put it. Death is not the blessing, the resurrection and atonement is! Death is not the way, Christ is! 2 Nephi 9:7-12 explains the nature of death well. We did not rejoice in the spirit world that we would die, we rejoiced that we would live through Christ.

Traveler is not arguing (at least I don't think he is) that this life is punishment for everyone, he is arguing that death is.

If you are going to speak of death, Christ can have no part in it. Death is the enemy, Christ abolished death - 2 Tim 1:10. Death is the antithesis of Christ who proclaimed, " I am the way, the truth and the life." All blessings are found in Christ and Christ is not in death.

Death = punishment; Resurrection = blessing.

"...if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more." (2 Nephi 9:8) Death is everlasting punishment and hell. Without Christ, death is eternal, it is not a good thing!

One of your arguments is that death is necessary to return to God. It is the "way" as you put it. Not true, there have been many that have not experienced death. Examples: The whole city of Enoch, John, the 3 Nephites. If death is a blessing, why would God withhold such a blessing from the most righteous? Death is not necessary to return to God...life is.

I really don't want to have the whole conversation over again, so read through what I posted if you want to.

This is why I said, it depends on whether it is permanent or not. And then Traveler came back with 'death is death'. He doesn't care if it is temporary or permanent it is the same to him.

I think you are saying the same things I have said. I have said that because there was a plan, a Savior, who provides life, just like you are saying, then this mortality, in sum total does not equal death - we are saved from death (mortality), it is not a permanent condition and therefore not punishment, just a trial. As it was presented to us in the premortal life we knew we would have a Savior, so we viewed the whole process as something that was not eternal death and therefore not punishment but a way forward. That is why we shouted for joy. We looked at this life as an opportunity to move forward and not a punishment but an advancement. I never used the word "blessing", that is you putting words in my mouth.

"Death" in this sense is equal to a probationary state, a temporary separation from the presence of God. As it states very clearly in Gospel Principles chapter 3; "When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the premortal spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. While we were away from Him, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so He planned a way to help us."

Even the people you mentioned who did not experience the act of the mortal body separation from the spirit, still experienced spiritual death as described in Gospel Principles. So, why was Enoch "punished" in that way if you believe death = punishment? Or why is the baby who dies within one hour of life "punished"? Please answer that if you take such a hard and fast description of death = punishment.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Marlin1]

Seminarysnoozer,

I think we are saying pretty much the same things in different ways, but there are some minor details.

You countered Traveler's statement: "death is a punishment. Not a blessing," and your rebuttal to that statement led me to believe that you view death as a blessing. Something to "rejoice" over as you put it.

Why was Enoch punished for sin? Because he sinned. The atonement made things better.

Why do kids die? Because Adam transgressed. The atonement made things better.

There is no way around it, death is penalty for sin and transgression. Christ paid the penalty for us. Death is not a punishment to children because Christ took on the penalty himself. Somebody had to pay the price. Justice had to be served.

To say that death is not a punishment is to belittle Christ's atonement.

You are right that physical death is not a punishment that we have to bear. Death was made mute in Christ.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Marlin1

[Marlin1]

This statement would technically be incorrect. One must have agency in order to transgress any law, rule, or code of conduct. Without agency no one would be able to choose righteousness, or obeying the law, rule, or code of conduct, and no one would be able to choose to disobey.

Sorry, I must have overlooked your response.

The lack of agency in general is an impossibility, so we are talking about moral agency.

A modern example would be the criminally insane. They can transgress a law without being guilty of a crime. Even God views them as innocent of sin (that is, if they truly are disabled). Nobody can deny that they transgressed, yet they are innocent. Adam and Eve were similar in that regard. They were very much disabled. They had no ability to choose between good and evil. Their agency was based purely on intellectual reasoning.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Marlin1

[Traveler]

Seminarysnoozer,

I think we are saying pretty much the same things in different ways, but there are some minor details.

You countered Traveler's statement: "death is a punishment. Not a blessing," and your rebuttal to that statement led me to believe that you view death as a blessing. Something to "rejoice" over as you put it.

Why was Enoch punished for sin? Because he sinned. The atonement made things better.

Why do kids die? Because Adam transgressed. The atonement made things better.

There is no way around it, death is penalty for sin and transgression. Christ paid the penalty for us. Death is not a punishment to children because Christ took on the penalty himself. Somebody had to pay the price. Justice had to be served.

To say that death is not a punishment is to belittle Christ's atonement.

You are right that physical death is not a punishment that we have to bear. Death was made mute in Christ.

Thank you for your remarks. There seems to be a bit a a problem with some of the principles. I am not sure why - sometimes I get the impression that people can be standing in the sun at noon day and claim that it is night.

Death is a punishment. The reason that the spirits of heaven rejoiced over the plan of salvation was not because it included death. The rejoicing was because - as you said - death (or the punishment of death) was ended in the atonement of Christ. But this was just part - the real reason there was rejoicing was because man would be exalted because of the plan of salvation. Contrary to what Seminary is implying - no one, at least as I understand, rejoiced because they got the chance to experience death with the possibility that it could be forever. No one rejoiced (with the possible exception of Satan and his followers in wishing that punishment would be on those that chose G-d’s plan) over the prospect of physical death or spiritual death. I do not know why Seminary insist on everybody being so happy about getting to suffer both physical death and spiritual death spiritual death being cast out of the presents of G-d. But then everyone has the right to believe what they will.

The Traveler

[Guest SquidMom]

I don't understand why everyone is concerned over the death issue. Our bodies are mortal. Physical death is neccessary to return to the spirit world. True, in history some have been exalted without physical death, because God decided that they had proved their worthiness. The purpose of physical life is to prove ourselves faithful and worthy, to prove our true love for Christ and Heavenly Father. To love because you know no other way is not true love. Each person on this earth CHOSE to come here to prove our true love for HIM. In the pre-existence we each had a preview of what our individual lives could be like, challenges, triumphs, pains and joys, with an understanding that OUR choices would dictate our paths. I'm not saying that our choices made someone break into our house and murder us, for example, but that we did know it was something that was possible. We chose to take the risk of bad things hapening to us, in exchange for the PROMISE that if we lived faithfully, God would "pour blessings upon us." What would you do, what would risk, or suffer, for the ones you love the most? Pain? Poverty? Death? We each chose to suffer everything to prove our love for HIM. Death is neither blessing or punishment, entirely. To the terminally ill, the suffering, of course it IS a blessing. For those that go "before their time," who is to say when someone's "time" is? do we presume to know God's intent? His plan? For the baby so often mentioned that dies an hour after it's birth, perhaps that was that soul's pupose? We mourn for ourselves when we lose someone, not for them. That baby had no chance to sin, so returned directly to God. A pure soul without need of redemption. No one wants to lose a baby, or child, and my heart goes out to everyone who has. I can only imagine the pain..... However, grief is for the living. To return to God, without the pain, fear, dissappointment and hardships of mortality, could be a blessing indeed for some. Perhaps that person was being saved from something truly awful in their future? Yes, they also miss out on the joys and blessings that only mortal existence can bring. But who are we even attempt to understand the plans of God? We know NOTHING! He knows all and knows what is truly best for us, more that we can ever comprehend. If you truly believe in Christ and God you must acknowledge this.

"Trust in Him with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding. In all thy ways acknowlege Him, and He shall direct your path."

I can't remember the reference, but that is the only scripture I really remember from seminary school, I think because it is just so profound. I suffer from serious depression, and at times when I am down at my lowest, and I feel like the world is against me and everything is so awful, I feel like I am being punished. I don't understand why bad things seem to happen, or things don't go the way I think they should. I recall that scripture and am reminded, I don't need to understand. it is BEYOND my understanding. I have to have faith that God knows what is happening to me, that he cares, and that their is "a method to the madness." That's when I pray. How can anyone help you if you never ask? The pain always passes, I come up, back to myself, and I'm better. I know in my heart that the Lord has "directed my path."

I guess all I'm trying to say is STOP ANALYZING GOD! If you belive in Him, in His love for us, His children, just have faith that He knows what he is doing, okay? Pray for guidance, for understanding, for acceptance of what you cannot understand. The smartest person that ever lived could not have come even close to knowing why God does, or doesn't do things. We must trust Him, for you cannot say you truly love someone if you not trust them.

[Marlin1]

I don't understand why everyone is concerned over the death issue. Our bodies are mortal. Physical death is neccessary to return to the spirit world. True, in history some have been exalted without physical death, because God decided that they had proved their worthiness. The purpose of physical life is to prove ourselves faithful and worthy, to prove our true love for Christ and Heavenly Father. To love because you know no other way is not true love. Each person on this earth CHOSE to come here to prove our true love for HIM. In the pre-existence we each had a preview of what our individual lives could be like, challenges, triumphs, pains and joys, with an understanding that OUR choices would dictate our paths. I'm not saying that our choices made someone break into our house and murder us, for example, but that we did know it was something that was possible. We chose to take the risk of bad things hapening to us, in exchange for the PROMISE that if we lived faithfully, God would "pour blessings upon us." What would you do, what would risk, or suffer, for the ones you love the most? Pain? Poverty? Death? We each chose to suffer everything to prove our love for HIM. Death is neither blessing or punishment, entirely. To the terminally ill, the suffering, of course it IS a blessing. For those that go "before their time," who is to say when someone's "time" is? do we presume to know God's intent? His plan? For the baby so often mentioned that dies an hour after it's birth, perhaps that was that soul's pupose? We mourn for ourselves when we lose someone, not for them. That baby had no chance to sin, so returned directly to God. A pure soul without need of redemption. No one wants to lose a baby, or child, and my heart goes out to everyone who has. I can only imagine the pain..... However, grief is for the living. To return to God, without the pain, fear, dissappointment and hardships of mortality, could be a blessing indeed for some. Perhaps that person was being saved from something truly awful in their future? Yes, they also miss out on the joys and blessings that only mortal existence can bring. But who are we even attempt to understand the plans of God? We know NOTHING! He knows all and knows what is truly best for us, more that we can ever comprehend. If you truly believe in Christ and God you must acknowledge this.

"Trust in Him with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding. In all thy ways acknowlege Him, and He shall direct your path."

I can't remember the reference, but that is the only scripture I really remember from seminary school, I think because it is just so profound. I suffer from serious depression, and at times when I am down at my lowest, and I feel like the world is against me and everything is so awful, I feel like I am being punished. I don't understand why bad things seem to happen, or things don't go the way I think they should. I recall that scripture and am reminded, I don't need to understand. it is BEYOND my understanding. I have to have faith that God knows what is happening to me, that he cares, and that their is "a method to the madness." That's when I pray. How can anyone help you if you never ask? The pain always passes, I come up, back to myself, and I'm better. I know in my heart that the Lord has "directed my path."

I guess all I'm trying to say is STOP ANALYZING GOD! If you belive in Him, in His love for us, His children, just have faith that He knows what he is doing, okay? Pray for guidance, for understanding, for acceptance of what you cannot understand. The smartest person that ever lived could not have come even close to knowing why God does, or doesn't do things. We must trust Him, for you cannot say you truly love someone if you not trust them.

Ya, but that takes the fun out of it! :)

Welcome aboard!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you for your remarks. There seems to be a bit a a problem with some of the principles. I am not sure why - sometimes I get the impression that people can be standing in the sun at noon day and claim that it is night.

Death is a punishment. The reason that the spirits of heaven rejoiced over the plan of salvation was not because it included death. The rejoicing was because - as you said - death (or the punishment of death) was ended in the atonement of Christ. But this was just part - the real reason there was rejoicing was because man would be exalted because of the plan of salvation. Contrary to what Seminary is implying - no one, at least as I understand, rejoiced because they got the chance to experience death with the possibility that it could be forever. No one rejoiced (with the possible exception of Satan and his followers in wishing that punishment would be on those that chose G-d’s plan) over the prospect of physical death or spiritual death. I do not know why Seminary insist on everybody being so happy about getting to suffer both physical death and spiritual death spiritual death being cast out of the presents of G-d. But then everyone has the right to believe what they will.

The Traveler

To come to this life is called "death". We cannot separate the two. I think that is my point.

The basic LDS belief is that death (meaning mortality) is a trial not a punishment.

It is like a teenager who says I want a place of my own but I don't want to leave the comforts of my parents home. Well, that cannot be separated from each other, one is inversely related to the other. Likewise to have eternal life we have to have death, they cannot be separated. We wanted to be more like our Heavenly Father and so to do that we have to have separation, responsibility and accountability. The way to test our worthiness for such things is the process of "death" or coming to a temporary mortal life (not a permanent one). To make it temporary requires death. I think we would cry in agony if we thought it was permanent. So, because we knew it was temporary and not permanent then yes, I believe we shouted for joy over the idea that it was temporary death that we were talking about (as well as all the other things that were attached to that plan and purpose of a temporary death which is part of a package deal, not a-la-carte like you are trying to say).

Satan, on the other hand tried to convince people in the war in Heaven that this could be permanent, why take the chance? He wrongly thought the plan could do without death. That is a satanic belief that it could be done without death. It is a false belief. He still tries to fight that battle and implant that belief today.

Everyone that is here, including you Traveler, didn't see it Satan's way, we all saw it as a positive thing, to be separated from God for a short period of time of which the separation would be called "death". And we knew the whole plan that a Savior would be provided. Adam and Eve stepped up to the plate because they knew they would chose death, as we all agreed to as part of keeping the first estate. Even you chose death (included in the package deal of the first estate test).

Gospel Principles describes death as a trial (I didn't come up with that idea on my own - it is a basic LDS belief): "At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that some would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose their way. We learned that all of us would have trials in our lives: sickness, disappointment, pain, sorrow, and death. But we understood that these would be given to us for our experience and our good (see D&C 122:7). If we allowed them to, these trials would purify us rather than defeat us. They would teach us to have endurance, patience, and charity (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball [2006], 15–16).

At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin (see D&C 29:46–47). We learned that a Savior would be provided for us so we could overcome our sins and overcome death with resurrection. We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy."

Edited October 29, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

To come to this life is called "death". We cannot separate the two. I think that is my point.

The basic LDS belief is that death (meaning mortality) is a trial not a punishment.

....

Your error is thinking death means the same thing as mortal life. The two can, are and should be separated. There are examples (Enoch) that came to mortality but did not die. You will probably argue that with Enoch his life was changed from mortality to immortality - but that is inaccurate and would be a confusion between resurrection and translation.

The term I believe you are looking for, at least in scientific terms is "tightly coupled". Another example of things tightly coupled is light and darkness because they are opposites but yet related in that the existence of one requires the other. This principle of opposites had part in starting this thread in trying to understand the symbolism in the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Though the law of opposition requires that everything have an opposite and therefor the existence of one requires another - giving what is the definition of tightly coupled but it does not mean that opposite things cannot be separate.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Your error is thinking death means the same thing as mortal life. The two can, are and should be separated. There are examples (Enoch) that came to mortality but did not die. You will probably argue that with Enoch his life was changed from mortality to immortality - but that is inaccurate and would be a confusion between resurrection and translation.

The term I believe you are looking for, at least in scientific terms is "tightly coupled". Another example of things tightly coupled is light and darkness because they are opposites but yet related in that the existence of one requires the other. This principle of opposites had part in starting this thread in trying to understand the symbolism in the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Though the law of opposition requires that everything have an opposite and therefor the existence of one requires another - giving what is the definition of tightly coupled but it does not mean that opposite things cannot be separate.

The Traveler

Enoch was not separated from God for a period of time?

[Traveler]

Enoch was not separated from God for a period of time?

I see what you are getting at and you are correct - mortality is spiritual death. Yet at the same time we can receive the Holy Ghost and gifts of the spirit while living a mortal life so in reality there is some distinction.

The Fall is a spiritual death; however, not in the same sense that Satan is fallen and spiritually dead. I would point out that the Spirit Prison, is a punishment - not just a trial - even though it is or can be temporary. The context is covenant. Do you understand the difference between a covenant trial and a covenant punishment?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I see what you are getting at and you are correct - mortality is spiritual death. Yet at the same time we can receive the Holy Ghost and gifts of the spirit while living a mortal life so in reality there is some distinction.

The Fall is a spiritual death; however, not in the same sense that Satan is fallen and spiritually dead. I would point out that the Spirit Prison, is a punishment - not just a trial - even though it is or can be temporary. The context is covenant. Do you understand the difference between a covenant trial and a covenant punishment?

The Traveler

Yes, this is what I have been saying all along.

So, now are you okay with saying that mortality is not punishment that it is a trial?

Punishments come only after the trial is done and there will be no more retaking of that particular trial.

Gospel Principles;

"

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

The word also in the second paragraph means that there are some in the spirit prison who are not suffering for their sins, so this is the group that is different than the one spoken of in the first paragraph, who can still be enticed by good and evil, meaning their trial is not yet done. They are still on trial and in trial, not punishment.

[jb789]

I often hear people saying that EVE was wise in her decision in the Garden. Here is my question:

1. Did she reason the pros and cons and make a good decision?

2. If so, was the good decision to partake of the fruit in the first instance? (obviously we know that they needed to partake so that they could populate the planet....but was she tricked into this (beguiled) or was it a conscious choice...weighing the pros and cons)

3. OR was she tricked in partaking of the fruit and her "good decision" was to get Adam to partake of the fruit, because she already had, and would be expelled, and he was commanded to be with her and multiply and replenish?

Clear as mud?

I'm a bit late getting to this thread, it's obviously well underway. However, one thought I would add, is that I recall Brigham Young stating (in regards to the scriptural account of Eve being created from a rib of Adam) that this is the equivalent of a parent explaining to a child that little children come from "under a toadstool" (kind of like saying babies are brought from a stork), rather than explaining the actual reality of the situation. Brigham was explaining that God teaches us, in our infant understanding, often through parables that hint at the truth (but are not necessarily literally true).

We are told that the endowment etc. is symbolism. I am just putting this out there as an idea - but perhaps the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Eve partaking of this fruit, is a parable, meant to be understood as symbols, rather than as a literal tree and fruit. Much in the same way in Nephi's dream the Tree of Life is a symbol - representing the love of Christ. Thus, an understanding of the Fall comes from understanding the meaning of the symbols, rather than taking them as literal events. And as the temple endowment states, we are to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve, thus, apply this symbolism to our own lives.

(see here for an accounting of the rib taken from Adam being figurative:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/17588-were-adam-eve-born-15.html)

[Traveler]

Yes, this is what I have been saying all along.

So, now are you okay with saying that mortality is not punishment that it is a trial?

Punishments come only after the trial is done and there will be no more retaking of that particular trial.

Gospel Principles;

"

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

The word also in the second paragraph means that there are some in the spirit prison who are not suffering for their sins, so this is the group that is different than the one spoken of in the first paragraph, who can still be enticed by good and evil, meaning their trial is not yet done. They are still on trial and in trial, not punishment.

From an online dictionary - definition of punishment

1: the act of punishing

2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

I believe we can also understand the "punishments" of G-d as consequences of choices. I would submit that for a punishment to be just - that it cannot continue for longer than what is necessary to account for the infraction committed.

So I will ask you - as a parent do you discipline your children? Does your discipline include any negative reinforcements or consequences - do you "punish" your children? Or do you wait until the trial is over and no choice in the matter to ever be made again?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

From an online dictionary - definition of punishment

1: the act of punishing

2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

I believe we can also understand the "punishments" of G-d as consequences of choices. I would submit that for a punishment to be just - that it cannot continue for longer than what is necessary to account for the infraction committed.

So I will ask you - as a parent do you discipline your children? Does your discipline include any negative reinforcements or consequences - do you "punish" your children? Or do you wait until the trial is over and no choice in the matter to ever be made again?

The Traveler

Right or wrong, I only punish after I have made a judgment. Eternal punishment is only meted after the final judgement, by definition. I would never "punish" my children for the sake of teaching them a lesson without them first being judged. As your definition given what do we need retribution from, if this life is a "punishment"? As opposed to a trial.

Since we are looking at definitions lets look at trial;

tri·al (trl, trl)

n.

1. Law Examination of evidence and applicable law by a competent tribunal to determine the issue of specified charges or claims.

2.

a. The act or process of testing, trying, or putting to the proof: a trial of one's faith.

b. An instance of such testing, especially as part of a series of tests or experiments: a clinical trial of a drug.

3. An effort or attempt: succeeded on the third trial.

4. A state of pain or anguish that tests patience, endurance, or belief: "the fiery trial through which we pass" (Abraham Lincoln).

5. A trying, troublesome, or annoying person or thing: The child was a trial to his parents.

6. A preliminary competition or test to determine qualifications, as in a sport.

adj.

1. Of, relating to, or used in a trial.

2. Attempted or advanced on a provisional or experimental basis: a trial separation.

3. Made or done in the course of a trial or test.

The overlap is obvious.

[Traveler]

Right or wrong, I only punish after I have made a judgment. Eternal punishment is only meted after the final judgement, by definition. I would never "punish" my children for the sake of teaching them a lesson without them first being judged. As your definition given what do we need retribution from, if this life is a "punishment"? As opposed to a trial.

Since we are looking at definitions lets look at trial;

tri·al (trl, trl)

n.

1. Law Examination of evidence and applicable law by a competent tribunal to determine the issue of specified charges or claims.

2.

a. The act or process of testing, trying, or putting to the proof: a trial of one's faith.

b. An instance of such testing, especially as part of a series of tests or experiments: a clinical trial of a drug.

3. An effort or attempt: succeeded on the third trial.

4. A state of pain or anguish that tests patience, endurance, or belief: "the fiery trial through which we pass" (Abraham Lincoln).

5. A trying, troublesome, or annoying person or thing: The child was a trial to his parents.

6. A preliminary competition or test to determine qualifications, as in a sport.

adj.

1. Of, relating to, or used in a trial.

2. Attempted or advanced on a provisional or experimental basis: a trial separation.

3. Made or done in the course of a trial or test.

The overlap is obvious.

Hmmmm - I do not think I would trust my grand children to your care. If they wander off into a busy street - I prefer someone willing to take immediate action rather than waiting to see (pass judgment) if the child will pass a trial as you say.

This is not to say that I do not believe in trails - it is just that I have discovered in life that "correction" (punishment) is less severer when made as soon as a course deviation is detected rather than waiting until one has arrived at the wrong destination - then "punishments", of necessity, will be much more severer. I have learned by sad experience that it is best, when I am placed in any place of responsibility, to act as soon as I have detected deviation to make corrections. The reason is that in so acting - the punishment (correction) is not as bad.

Many years ago I wrote in my journal that I have decided to avoid sin. Not because it was bad or that I did not enjoy a particular sin at the time. The main reason for me to avoid sin is that I had discovered the longer I allow a sin to linger with me the greater the difficulty is of repenting and being rid of it.

But all this to me is a waist of time - the goal of a trial is not really to avoid punishment as it is to obtain that which cannot be reached or achieved by any other means. Indeed - self realization of failure (even at an offset) is the greatest punishment of all and likewise the greatest achievement. But how sad it would be to wait until the trial is over to make such a judgment and the time to get back up and continue is no longer possible. But if that works for you - then do it that way - but that does not work at all for me.

The Traveler

[Windseeker]

Hmmmm - I do not think I would trust my grand children to your care. If they wander off into a busy street - I prefer someone willing to take immediate action rather than waiting to see (pass judgment) if the child will pass a trial as you say.

Are you suggesting that preventing self harm is punishment?..and we are talking about a child right?, someone who has not proverbally partaken fully of the fruit of good and evil?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hmmmm - I do not think I would trust my grand children to your care. If they wander off into a busy street - I prefer someone willing to take immediate action rather than waiting to see (pass judgment) if the child will pass a trial as you say.

This is not to say that I do not believe in trails - it is just that I have discovered in life that "correction" (punishment) is less severer when made as soon as a course deviation is detected rather than waiting until one has arrived at the wrong destination - then "punishments", of necessity, will be much more severer. I have learned by sad experience that it is best, when I am placed in any place of responsibility, to act as soon as I have detected deviation to make corrections. The reason is that in so acting - the punishment (correction) is not as bad.

Many years ago I wrote in my journal that I have decided to avoid sin. Not because it was bad or that I did not enjoy a particular sin at the time. The main reason for me to avoid sin is that I had discovered the longer I allow a sin to linger with me the greater the difficulty is of repenting and being rid of it.

But all this to me is a waist of time - the goal of a trial is not really to avoid punishment as it is to obtain that which cannot be reached or achieved by any other means. Indeed - self realization of failure (even at an offset) is the greatest punishment of all and likewise the greatest achievement. But how sad it would be to wait until the trial is over to make such a judgment and the time to get back up and continue is no longer possible. But if that works for you - then do it that way - but that does not work at all for me.

The Traveler

This life is not a test for children. That was the purpose and goal of the pre-mortal world. None of us enter into this life as spirit infants. We matured as much as we could before coming here. If this life was our spiritual infancy I could see what you are saying would make sense in that you don't let the child wander into the middle of the street without supervision but that is not the case. But, you should give everyone in the world a little more credit -we all passed the first estate as mature spirits. Now we are seeing if we can walk in the street without supervision.

I am just saying that in terms of semantics, if there is any chance for repentance then it cannot be called punishment. Otherwise the "punishment" should take care of the need for repentance. The punishment would meet the demands of justice and therefore there is no need for repentance. The reason we have repentance is because the judgement, for the most part, is reserved for the final judgement. Yes, there are exceptions to that where people are judged immediately and even punished. But there are many "sins" that have no immediate consequence perceived by the person and the act continues without any corrective effect at all. For example, sins of omission tend to be that way. The person may not realize what they have done by not studying their scriptures every day or not praying every day until it is all summed up at the final judgement. So, what corrective punishment took place there? None. Is it sad, like you said? Yes.

I think the thing that changes one view on this topic is how one views the purpose of this life and to what degree. I think many people, even within the faith, look at the spectrum between training and test as this life falling more on the training side of things than a test. I think that is wrong. I think we matured as much as we could before coming here and now we face this unique test. Can we learn things here? Sure, but we hope that we have already learned everything we need to pass this test with flying colors. Just like a final exam, one hopes that they are not learning during the test, that they have done all the learning they needed to before the test began. That is not to say that there is no learning here, of course there is. But I see the ratio of test to training falling more on the test side of things. If one sees this life as mostly training then their perception of not getting immediate feedback for wrong doings is troublesome, like you are expressing. I think your view of that would change if you saw this life as mostly a test with a little bit of opportunity to change who you are.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

This life is not a test for children. That was the purpose and goal of the pre-mortal world. None of us enter into this life as spirit infants. We matured as much as we could before coming here. If this life was our spiritual infancy I could see what you are saying would make sense in that you don't let the child wander into the middle of the street without supervision but that is not the case. But, you should give everyone in the world a little more credit -we all passed the first estate as mature spirits. Now we are seeing if we can walk in the street without supervision.

I am just saying that in terms of semantics, if there is any chance for repentance then it cannot be called punishment. Otherwise the "punishment" should take care of the need for repentance. The punishment would meet the demands of justice and therefore there is no need for repentance. The reason we have repentance is because the judgement, for the most part, is reserved for the final judgement. Yes, there are exceptions to that where people are judged immediately and even punished. But there are many "sins" that have no immediate consequence perceived by the person and the act continues without any corrective effect at all. For example, sins of omission tend to be that way. The person may not realize what they have done by not studying their scriptures every day or not praying every day until it is all summed up at the final judgement. So, what corrective punishment took place there? None. Is it sad, like you said? Yes.

I think the thing that changes one view on this topic is how one views the purpose of this life and to what degree. I think many people, even within the faith, look at the spectrum between training and test as this life falling more on the training side of things than a test. I think that is wrong. I think we matured as much as we could before coming here and now we face this unique test. Can we learn things here? Sure, but we hope that we have already learned everything we need to pass this test with flying colors. Just like a final exam, one hopes that they are not learning during the test, that they have done all the learning they needed to before the test began. That is not to say that there is no learning here, of course there is. But I see the ratio of test to training falling more on the test side of things. If one sees this life as mostly training then their perception of not getting immediate feedback for wrong doings is troublesome, like you are expressing. I think your view of that would change if you saw this life as mostly a test with a little bit of opportunity to change who you are.

Many years ago I trained to be a teacher - and I studied administering tests. I have a great prejudice against teachers, like yourself that think that test, trials, should be administered as a means of justice - to justify punishment. I believe a trial is administered only to demonstrate what has been learned and what learning has been missed or omitted.

Thus the greatest "punishment" is to quit. For one to say they are done. This is never administered by a proctor but by the individual that gives up. To me the term "damnation" means to stop - to quit - to accept limits.

I believe in incentives. Positive incentives are called blessings. Negative incentives are called punishments. Everything that moves does so by attractions or repulsions.

But what is punishment and what is a blessing? What would be the greater punishment? To force someone into the Celestial Kingdom that has not acquired Celestial traits or to ban someone from the Celestial Kingdom that has not acquired Celestial traits? And what punishment is it to **** someone to hell that has strived and desired their entire existence to be damned?

So at the final judgement - is it punishment to send those determined to be adulterers to a place for adulterers? I think not. If punishment does not correct anything - it is worthless and not a punishment. The truth is, my friend, punishment is only for the righteous. There is no punishment of the wicked.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Many years ago I trained to be a teacher - and I studied administering tests. I have a great prejudice against teachers, like yourself that think that test, trials, should be administered as a means of justice - to justify punishment. I believe a trial is administered only to demonstrate what has been learned and what learning has been missed or omitted.

Thus the greatest "punishment" is to quit. For one to say they are done. This is never administered by a proctor but by the individual that gives up. To me the term "damnation" means to stop - to quit - to accept limits.

I believe in incentives. Positive incentives are called blessings. Negative incentives are called punishments. Everything that moves does so by attractions or repulsions.

But what is punishment and what is a blessing? What would be the greater punishment? To force someone into the Celestial Kingdom that has not acquired Celestial traits or to ban someone from the Celestial Kingdom that has not acquired Celestial traits? And what punishment is it to **** someone to hell that has strived and desired their entire existence to be damned?

So at the final judgement - is it punishment to send those determined to be adulterers to a place for adulterers? I think not. If punishment does not correct anything - it is worthless and not a punishment. The truth is, my friend, punishment is only for the righteous. There is no punishment of the wicked.

The Traveler

I have no idea who these people are who you are talking about that "has strived and desired their entire existence to be damned". That certainly isn't any of us on Earth as we have all kept the first estate. We expressed that we were willing to keep the faith in Christ and to move forward.

At the final judgment the only wicked ones will be cast out, as in those of which there is no forgiveness; "

Outer Darkness

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)"

Whereas adulterers who pay their punishment in the spirit world can still receive a degree of glory (i.e - they are not sent to a place where there is wickedness); "

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)"

Is there wickedness where the Holy Ghost visits? ... There is no indication that there will be adulterers there, only people who committed adultery while in probation and who paid for their sins while in the spirit world. There is no indication that they will have the opportunity to stack up additional debts that would have to be again paid off some how.

Punishment goes to those who do not receive forgiveness through Christ's atonement. That is the delineating factor.