The Brass Plates of Laban

[berlin62]

Lehi and his family took with them the Brass Plates of Laban.

Laban was presumably the keeper of the plates until then.

Someone must have written on the plates of brass, presumbly prophets of assigned scribes.

The contained much of what we know as the Old Testament, from the creation to Jeremia, maybe even more than is in the OT.

Question: Is there any evidence of the brass plates being kept by the Jews? Any evidence outside the BM. Any secondary sources that confirm their existence?

Not just any brass plates or other plates written on metal, but these particular brass plates kept by the Jews in Jerusalem around 600 BC.

Background of the question: Gold plates, brass plates etc. are often a subject of ridicule by opponents of the church.

If nobody in the forum can answer this question, who can we ask? some professor of ancient scripture at BYU, some other forum maybe?

Berlin62

[Maxel]

No idea what the best source of information would be. The search topic 'Brass Plates' yields these results from FARMS. As of yet, I haven't found anything examining historical evidence (outside of the BoM) and concluding a case for the existence of the Brass Plates.

What specific questions are those critics raising? Most well-versed critics of the Church stays away from the Brass and Golden Plates unless they're trying to make Joseph Smith look like a lunatic by misrepresenting his story. During Smith's time, the practice of ancient peoples keeping records on metal plates was unheard of and a large selling point for anti-Mormons. However, when the practice was proven not only to have existed, but be quite common, it turned into an evidence for the validity of the Book of Mormon.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Maxel
Grammar

[berlin62]

No idea what the best source of information would be. The search topic 'Brass Plates' yields these results from FARMS. As of yet, I haven't found anything examining historical evidence (outside of the BoM) and concluding a case for the existence of the Brass Plates.

What specific questions are those critics raising? Most well-versed critics of the Church stays away from the Brass and Golden Plates unless they're trying to make Joseph Smith look like a lunatic by misrepresenting his story. During Smith's time, the practice of ancient peoples keeping records on metal plates was unheard of and a large selling point for anti-Mormons. However, when the practice was proven not only to have existed, but be quite common, it turned into an evidence for the validity of the Book of Mormon.

Thanks for your reply. Most of it was familiar to me. Do you have any reference to the fact, that metal plates for wrtiting were quite common in antiquity? I have of course heard of the plates of Darius (Persia etc) and seen pictures of it. But do you know of any more cases?

[Justice]

I read an article a while back about how the use of plates for keeping records was more widely in use than commonly thought. It did give evidence and references... I'll see if I can find it again.

[livy111us]

FAIR has a question answer email called "Ask the Apologist". You can email them here:

Contacting FAIR

I don't think you'll find much contemporary evidence of the Brass plates. They seem to have been a familial book as opposed to a book of scripture that was passed around for Prophets to write on. Remember, it contained the exact lineage of Lehi and his family.

Here is some info I have on the subject:

The Hebrew text of Isaiah 8:1 reads "take thee a great Gillayon and write on it..." The word

"gillayon" as Dr. Adam Clarke points out, is a polished tablet of metal which prophecy was to be

written on.

"William J. Adams jr. informs us of Dr. Gabriel Barkays find at an excavation site in

Jerusalem. The dig, which was begun in 1979, unearthed a tomb dated to about 600 B.C. Among

the finds were two rolled-up strips of silver, unknown elsewhere in the archaeology of this

period. These silver plates contain quotations from the book of Numbers, confirming that

religious texts were engraved on precious metal plates in Lehi’s Jerusalem and thus showing that

Lehi’s search for the plates of Laban and his own writings on precious metal plates are real

possibilities." (FARMS Review of Books, 14:1-2, pg. 94)

Since these discoveries were made, many of the criticisms of the gold plates ceased. But

still occasionally you come across an ignorant anti-Mormon who still thinks that he can use this

argument against the Church. But now that we have proof of other plates being found in stone

boxes, it actually is something to prove the divine calling of Joseph Smith. (for more information

see Dr. Franklin S. Harris Jr. discoveries found in the Instructor magazine in Oct. 1957)

There have also been many stone boxes and plates found in the Americas, such as the

Hackman stone box found in Texcoco, Mexico, the Carved Aztec box, and the Kulkulcan stone

box found inside the Temple of Kulkulcan of Chichen Itza, Yucatan, Mexico, which matches

Joseph Smith’s description of Moroni’s box to a "T".

"On her deathbed, Alice Le Plongeon (wife of Augustus Le Plongeon) turned over to an intimate

friend many of her husbands drawings and notes and evidently tried to tell the location of another

spectacular discovery they claimed to have made and covered again in 1875–some underground

rooms containing stone boxes holding perfectly preserved ancient records of the Maya." (Lost

Tribes and Sunken Continents, Robert Wauchope, pg. 19)

A man named William Bolsover wrote about his dealings with the Ispogogee Indians at

Tuckabatchee, Alabama. He said that this tribe of priestly Indians had many brass and copper plates

containing prophetic writings of their forefathers which were given them by the same diety they say

we call God. (Edward King, viscount Kingsborough, Antiquities of Mexico, vol. 8 pg. 357-358, as

cited in A Challenge to the Critics, Diane Wirth, pg. 43)

In their book, America’s Ancient Civilizations, Hyatt and Ruth Verrill tell of a Maya book

containing the complete history of their ancestors. This book is said to have been inscribed on gold

plates. They write "According to tradition a complete history of the Maya was recorded in the

Golden Book of the Mayas which, if it actually existed, as it probably did, was so carefully hidden to

prevent it from falling into the hands of the Spaniards that it never has been found." (Americas

Ancient Civilizations, pg. 23).

We also have the copper scrolls found in the caves of Qumran which make up, in part, the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I doubt that the format will transfer over, but an older source, from Mark Petersons "Those Gold Plates!" listed a few discoveries of writings on metal plates in ancient times. This list, of course, is outdated, but it is good starting point for metallic plates.

Object or material Civilization Language and script Time

Asia

1. Gold plate Javanese Javanese

2. Copper plate Javanese Kavi (old Javenese) up to A.D. 1473

3. Gold sheets Siam Siamese A.D. 1300-1500

4. Silver plates India Singhalese

5. Copper plates Harappa,Pakistan Indus Valley script 3rd Millenium B.C.

6. Many copper plates Pakistan, and India A.D. 324

7. Copper plate Gorakpur, India Indo-Aryan 4th century B.C.

8. Copper plate Kalawan, Pakistan 134 A.D

9. Silver scroll Pakistan 136 A.D.

10. Copper plate India Tamila characters middle 1st millenium A.D.

11. Gold plate Pali-maunggun 5th century A.D.

12. Copper plates India Grantha script 5th-7th century A.D.

13. Silver India Mixed Pali-Pyu 6th-7th century A.D.

14. 20 Gold leaves India Pyu 6th century A.D.

15. Gold plate India Pyu

16. Gold and Silver plates Iran old Persian, Babylonian, 518-515 B.C.

and Elamite

Europe

17. Plate Portugal

18. Lead, Bronze, Silver Spain Iberian 5th century B.C.

19. Plates Roman Latin 2nd century B.C.

20. Lead Italy Etruscan 6th century B.C.

21. Lead Italy Etruscan 3rd century B.C.

22. Gold Italy Etruscan

23. Bronze Italy Oscan 3rd century B.C.

24. Bronze Italy Oscan 2nd century B.C.

25. Bronze Italy Umbrian Earlier than 500 B.C.

26. Bronze Italy Latin, Greek, and

Phoenicain

27. Bronze Italy Greek 4th century B.C.

28. Bronze Greece Greek 5th century B.C.

Egypt

29. Gold Egyptian Hieroglyphics 3000 B.C.

30. Gold Egyptian Hieroglyphics 2800 B.C.

31. Gold Egyptian Hieroglyphics 2000-1788 B.C.

32. Lead Egypt Pseudo-hieroglyphic

33. Silver Egypt Egyptian 1254 B.C.

34. Silver and Gold Egypt Egyptian 1198-1167 B.C.

35. Metal Egyptian Demotic after 4th century B.C.

36. Gold Egypt Greek 242-222 B.C.

Mesopotamia

37. Gold Sumerian 3rd millenium B.C.

38. Copper Sumerian 2900-2425 B.C.

39. Copper Sumerian Cuneiform 2900-2425 B.C.

40. Bronze Assur Hurrian Mid 3rd millenium B.C.

41. Bronze Lebanon Pseudo-heiroglyphic 2000-1800 B.C.

42. Gold and Silver Assyrian 883 B.C.

43. Gold Assyrian 858 B.C.

44. Bronze Assyrian 858 B.C.

45. Gold, Silver, Bronze Assyrian 722. B.C.

46. Bronze, Gold Assyrian 722 B.C.

47. Lead Mesopotamia Mandean 7th-8th century A.D.

48. Lead Assyrian Hittite 7th century B.C.

49. Silver Semitic Late Hittite 600 B.C.

Palestine, and Arabia, Turkey

50. Bronze Galilee, Palestine Ugarit cuneiform 14th century B.C.

51. Copper Palestine Hebrew 12th century B.C.

52. Bronze Arabia Himyaritic 6th-7th century B.C.

53. Brass Palestine 2nd century B.C.

54. Copper scrolls Dead Sea Caves Hebrew Middle of 1st century B.C.

55. Gold and Silver Palestine Hebrew/Aramaic 200 A.D.

56. Silver Arabic

57. Copper Maghreb Arabic

[Gjh1960]

Even if there is evidence for Labans plates of brass outside the BoM, I'm afraid it would not stop or even convert a single critic of the church.

It would be so easy for the Lord to come up with scientific proof for himself and his restored gospel. And yet he did not do it, but rather told us that the gospel can only be taught, witnessed and understood by the spirit.

While many humans tend to prefer knowledge and scientific proof over belief, the Lord appears to clearly prefer our faith over our science based conviction.

In fact, all the circumstances of the restoration from the first vision, the appearing of angels to the translation of the BoM by an unlearned farmboy using prophetic gifts are evidence for me that He wanted to challenge all modern day sceptics rather than convince them by means of science.

[berlin62]

I read an article a while back about how the use of plates for keeping records was more widely in use than commonly thought. It did give evidence and references... I'll see if I can find it again.

Justice, thanks. Don't bother looking for those reference. two other respondents already gave enough references and further suggestions.

thanks again

Eckhard

[berlin62]

Even if there is evidence for Labans plates of brass outside the BoM, I'm afraid it would not stop or even convert a single critic of the church.

It would be so easy for the Lord to come up with scientific proof for himself and his restored gospel. And yet he did not do it, but rather told us that the gospel can only be taught, witnessed and understood by the spirit.

While many humans tend to prefer knowledge and scientific proof over belief, the Lord appears to clearly prefer our faith over our science based conviction.

In fact, all the circumstances of the restoration from the first vision, the appearing of angels to the translation of the BoM by an unlearned farmboy using prophetic gifts are evidence for me that He wanted to challenge all modern day sceptics rather than convince them by means of science.

What you say is perfectly true. But it would be nice if we had some proof like mention of the brass plates of Laban etc.

[Maxel]

What you say is perfectly true. But it would be nice if we had some proof like mention of the brass plates of Laban etc.

I agree, it would be nice. Yet, such solid evidence does not exist. While not without precedence in history, the existence of the Brass Plates cannot be definitively proven in historical context. Then again, neither can many of the instances and artifacts in the Bible.

Next time a critic asks you about the Brass or Golden Plates, ask him to show you where the original writings of Moses are- not just the translated copies, but the copy of the Pentateuch penned by Moses himself- and then you'll talk. Critics (at least Christian critics) attacking the Brass or Golden Plates are using a double standards. Then again, anti-Mormonism is, by necessity, steeped in falsehood.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Maxel
Fixed improper word

[Traveler]

Lehi and his family took with them the Brass Plates of Laban.

Laban was presumably the keeper of the plates until then.

Someone must have written on the plates of brass, presumbly prophets of assigned scribes.

The contained much of what we know as the Old Testament, from the creation to Jeremia, maybe even more than is in the OT.

Question: Is there any evidence of the brass plates being kept by the Jews? Any evidence outside the BM. Any secondary sources that confirm their existence?

Not just any brass plates or other plates written on metal, but these particular brass plates kept by the Jews in Jerusalem around 600 BC.

Background of the question: Gold plates, brass plates etc. are often a subject of ridicule by opponents of the church.

If nobody in the forum can answer this question, who can we ask? some professor of ancient scripture at BYU, some other forum maybe?

Berlin62

The Dead Sea Scriptures have shed a great deal of light on the LDS knowledge of such things as the Brass Plates of Laban. Among the findings near the Dead Sea was the Isaiah scroll. This scroll was made differently from every other scroll of scripture ever found. One of the current theory behind this scroll is most interesting. DNA of the parchment indicates that the sheep from which the scroll was produced was different from all other sheep ever found in the Middle East. So it is theorized that special temple sheep were bred and maintained for special copies of scripture.

Here is how the theory proposes the orders of scripture. The most valued copy of each book of scripture was kept and maintained at the temple and stored in the Ark of the Covenant. From those special most holy texts of temple scripture a second level of copies were made from parchment made from the special bred of temple sheep. These were scriptorium copies and were distributed only to a few scriptoriums like those by the Dead Sea. Then at the scriptoriums the copies of the scriptures were made for the use by the public. This would also mean that there was a hierarchy of scribes as well as scriptures. The highest order or scribes having charge of the most sacred of all scriptures that were the temple scriptures. The theory proposes that the temple scriptures were maintained on a medium that has been lost and one of the proponents of this theory of temple scriptures even suggested brass. If this theory is close to the truth then the Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea is the only scriptorium copy of scripture text ever found.

In addition one of the scripture text found among the sacred scriptures of the Dead Sea is unlike any other ancient “biblical” scripture ever found. This is known as the copper scroll. There has been much debate about ever translating and publishing this scroll because of its content. In essence it contains a list of sacred treasures (including scriptures) that were removed from the temple and where the treasures were hidden. The copper scroll is written in code but the fact that a mettle medium for ancient sacred text specific to ancient Hebrew text is now proven. (BTW – this copper scroll is another piece of evidence that has convinced me that the Dead Sea Scrolls did not come from an obscure group of Essens – How did Essens get control of the temple treasures?)

Schollars that have studied the Dead Sea Scrolls are not among the critics of the Book of Mormon written on "Golden plates" or the brass plates of Laban.

105 years ago when Joseph Smith first introduced the historical possibility that mettle was used as a medium for ancient scripture was used by some of the anit’s as criticism. Today anyone that uses this argument does nothing more than display their ignorance. But many will follow such religious ignorance and intolerance as prophesied in the Book of Mormon. This is in connection to Lehi’s dream that tells of many that find the sacred truths in the Book of Mormon will fall away because of the scorn and ridicule of by those that are part of a “great and spacious building” criticizing precious truths of the gospel.

The Traveler

[scdoyle]

Here are some that were found 60 years ago.

Meridian Magazine: Book of Mormon :: Golden Plates on Display in Bulgaria