Help with apologetics

[Berean]

I hope this is the correct forum but I cannot start a new thread on the Mormon questions forum. I am a member of a "Mainstream Christian" forum as I call most Christians. There is a thread about Mormonism where I have been discussing The Church at length. I was wondering if I could post one of my answers and the question it responds to and get feedback...these people started out fairly disrespectful towards us and that has changed for the better. They also give out "reputation points" and I have only received positive reps for my posts on this subject...the only negative one I got was an accident lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borean View Post

Jesus Christ is the Son of God begotten by the Holy Spirit.

The LDS leadership (Prophets and Apostles) disagrees with this statement.

They teach that Jesus Christ was begotten not by the Holy Spirit, but rather, by actual physical intercourse of God the Father (who they believe exists in a physical, flesh and blood body like ours), and Mary.

LDS Prophet Brigham Young

"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was NOT begotten by the Holy Ghost."

"Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea "if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties"

LDS Prophet Ezra Taft Benson

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!"

LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith

"Christ is not begotten of the Holy Ghost".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borean View Post

We can only be saved by faith, repentance and baptism and reciept of the Holy Ghost. Salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned but only gratefully accepted.

Salvation is defined differently between Mormonism and Christianity.

In Mormonism, Salvation is membership into the LDS church. In Christianity, it is being saved from all of your sins.

On your last comment...can someone enter the LDS Celestrial Kingdom by faith only, or do they have to earn (via works) their way therein?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borean View Post

Jesus said "I am The Way, the Truth, and the Light, no one may come unto the Father but by Me"

He is not *a* way, truth and life but *the* way...I know this and have a testimony of this.

Is it not true, however, that the LDS leadership has taught that from the mother planet Kolob, uncountable spirit gods departed to populate and rule over their own planets...and that our present Heavenly Father here, is just solely the ruler of this planet, and Jesus himself, is just the furtherest along spirit child of heavenly father who is the next in line of celestrial progression to become a god and then get rulership over his own planet somewhere in the universe?

The LDS Jesus specifically, is not the 'way, truth, and light' in all planets of the universe, but solely this one....correct?

(not trying to badger you here with tough questions, just making sure you are aware of many of the LDS leadership teachings that are strongly conflicted with Christianity, and also that you are aware of many of the terms we use interchangeably, but the LDS defines and understands them much differently than how Christianity does...ei Salvation, born-again, exaltation, creation, etc....)

Thanks for your continued replies here. We really want the best for you!!!

To which I responded

Would you please quote your sources from the purple text? I would guess they are not scripture...you would not continue to use the extremely unreliable and misleading Discourses would you? Anti LDS people have a field day with those. We make mistakes too and we have our heretics as well...

I am not sure you read my post if you asked that question about faith and works...apologies if I was not clear. Faith saves and it is faith not works. However faith by definition produces works...we need to kindle and till our faith. Hence faith without works is dead.

And the last one is a toughie but is ok...you are being extremely respectful and if not from me then I wonder where you will learn...

The subject of what we call eternal progression is controversial for us as it does differ from other Christian religions...I include us as Christians and others disagree I am sure. No that does not mean that Christ is not the only Way...one cannot travel that road without accepting him as Savior and Lord. I understand that that may seem to some as salvation by works but as I said he is the only road there.

Just a thought. I hope I do not seem blasphemous as some may think this so but this is our reasoning in the eternal progression subject.

How many of you have children?

How many of you want to see your children stay children forever?

I am guessing none.

Second query.

Can we understand something infinite?

Can we know God as well as He knows us if we are limited as we are?

Does not the Bible tell us now we see through a glass darkly but then we shall know *even as we are known*?

That is not possible for me now. Is it possible for someone in the heaven of what I call "Mainstream Christianity" (no offense intended that is meant to be respectful...if there is another term let me know...) to know his or her Heavenly Father as well as He knows His child if he or she is still a child?

I hope that was not considered blasphemous as it was not intended to be and I do believe you wish me the best. These are honestly the best conversations about my faith I have ever had with those who are not members of my church and I thank those who participated for that. Have I gotten any disrespectful responses since I ranted? I don't think so...and I really appreciate that and maybe I will learn not to rant.

...and by the way my avatar there is an LDS painting of Jesus and Mary. I will tell them but they like it so much!

[Maxel]

Hey Berean- Only have 40 minutes before class; I have some advice about apologetics.

First off- there's a language shift between traditional Christianity and Mormon Christianity; we use the same words in different ways. Make sure to clarify what you mean, and don't be afraid to ask for more detail if you're confused about a statement another makes. Crossing the language barrier is difficult, but worthwhile.

Second, if you're really interested in apologetics I suggest reading the book How Wide the Divide? co-authored by Stephen Robinson and Craig Blomberg. Not only do they set the groundwork for upstanding theological discourse between evangelical Christianity and Mormonism, they also follow a charitable pattern that you would benefit from studying.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God begotten by the Holy Spirit.

The LDS leadership (Prophets and Apostles) disagrees with this statement.

When you run across statements like this, ask for scripture explaining the doctrine. Then, you know where the other person is coming from. Off the top of my head, I don't know which scriptures claim Christ was born of the 'Holy Spirit', but I'm sure the one who originally posted this does.

They teach that Jesus Christ was begotten not by the Holy Spirit, but rather, by actual physical intercourse of God the Father (who they believe exists in a physical, flesh and blood body like ours), and Mary.

LDS Prophet Brigham Young

"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was NOT begotten by the Holy Ghost."

"Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea "if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties"

LDS Prophet Ezra Taft Benson

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!"

LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith

"Christ is not begotten of the Holy Ghost".

I'm actually impressed that they stuck to former prophets and benign statements. Nothing they have stated are not doctrine: we believe Christ was born of the Father. However, there is no doctrinal teaching that the Father literally had sexual intercourse with Mary. Such a false view was perpetuated by The Godmakers. There has been speculation, but it has been just that: speculation. Remember that the LDS are bound only by canonized, accepted works. We are only bound by the scripture that is accepted as such in a General Conference and is sustained by the members. Remind others that they are not bound by the personal opinions of past prophets, but only canonical works: the Bible. Make a correlation between the two: modern and ancient canon.

We can only be saved by faith, repentance and baptism and reciept of the Holy Ghost. Salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned but only gratefully accepted.

Salvation is defined differently between Mormonism and Christianity.

In Mormonism, Salvation is membership into the LDS church. In Christianity, it is being saved from all of your sins.

This person is correct- barely- in their first sentence, correct in their second, and incorrect in their third. Salvation is not being part of Mormonism. There are many Mormons who will not be saved because they did not make use of Christ's Atonement or go to Him with a broken heart and contrite spirit. In traditional Christianity (especially Evangelical Christianity) a false dichotomy has been set up between faith and works. There are a couple ways you can explain our position:

1- Explain that the faith in one's mind can be called 'belief', and the actions one does in Christ' name can be called 'works'. In this sense, one's works are consecrated by that person's belief, and the product of the two is real, living faith.

2- Use C.S. Lewis' scissors analogy- "Arguing about which is more important, faith or works, is like arguing which blade of a pair of scissors is more important". Point to Paul's declarations that by faith alone we are saved, but also to James' explanation that faith without works is dead.

3- Explain that of our own selves we cannot merit salvation. It is impossible. Reaffirm that it is through the Grace of Christ, after all we can do, that we are saved. Remind them we believe that 'working out our own salvation daily' (words of Paul) includes doing the works that Christ has demanded of us. Also, how does a servant know a master he has not served? Serving requires work of some kind.

On your last comment...can someone enter the LDS Celestrial Kingdom by faith only, or do they have to earn (via works) their way therein?

This is the perfect opportunity to pull out D&C 132 and explain the new and everlasting covenant: that of marriage. Continually remind your audience that in all things related to the Celestial Kingdom, faith founds the foundation for everything.

Jesus said "I am The Way, the Truth, and the Light, no one may come unto the Father but by Me"

He is not *a* way, truth and life but *the* way...I know this and have a testimony of this.

Is it not true, however, that the LDS leadership has taught that from the mother planet Kolob, uncountable spirit gods departed to populate and rule over their own planets...and that our present Heavenly Father here, is just solely the ruler of this planet, and Jesus himself, is just the furtherest along spirit child of heavenly father who is the next in line of celestrial progression to become a god and then get rulership over his own planet somewhere in the universe?

None of this is canonized teaching. I am intrigued by this person's use of 'testimony' in the way he uses it, though- I've never seen a Christian of another sect use the term.

As a note: theoretically, even if what this person posits is true, for us Christ would still be THE way, the Truth, and the Light who leads us to the Father- and Christ was talking to us, not anyone else. Don't mention this however- that's too much theology for someone trying to understand the basics of the Church to grasp.

The LDS Jesus specifically, is not the 'way, truth, and light' in all planets of the universe, but solely this one....correct?

First, reject wordings such as 'the LDS Jesus'- we worship the same Jesus as all other Christians. Second, this person is making more speculation based on non-canonical LDS speculation. Reject it on those grounds and assure him that Christ is the 'way, truth, and light'.

(not trying to badger you here with tough questions, just making sure you are aware of many of the LDS leadership teachings that are strongly conflicted with Christianity, and also that you are aware of many of the terms we use interchangeably, but the LDS defines and understands them much differently than how Christianity does...ei Salvation, born-again, exaltation, creation, etc....)

While having good intentions, this person misunderstands our doctrine of canonization and sets up a false dichotomy between Christianity and Mormonism. This person is correct, however, that Mormons and traditional Christians use many similar terms differently. The LDS do not use systematic theology to solidly define terms like traditional Christians have.

To which I responded

Would you please quote your sources from the purple text? I would guess they are not scripture...you would not continue to use the extremely unreliable and misleading Discourses would you? Anti LDS people have a field day with those. We make mistakes too and we have our heretics as well...

If the 'purple text' you are referring to are the quotes by former Presidents- I would advise not using the term 'heretics'. Don't apologize for the Discourses or any speculative writings by former General Authorities. Explain the doctrine of canonization and stick to it.

I am not sure you read my post if you asked that question about faith and works...apologies if I was not clear. Faith saves and it is faith not works. However faith by definition produces works...we need to kindle and till our faith. Hence faith without works is dead.

Good answer- continue to use the language of the Bible because much of our doctrine is derived from it. However, you would make more of an impact by putting accompanying verses in parentheses, such as inserting (James 2:26) next to your words 'faith without works is dead' so they see the Biblical concept you are explaining. Also, make the online scriptures at lds.org your new best friend, and use HTML/BBCcode hyper linking to link ALL scriptural references to their corresponding scripture there.

And the last one is a toughie but is ok...you are being extremely respectful and if not from me then I wonder where you will learn...

One word of caution: be wary of anyone who continually asks difficult questions and/or does not at least accept the fact that Mormons feel the way they do and believe what they do. One telltale sign of someone seeking to bash is someone unwilling to acknowledge we actually believe what we do, and who constantly claim that what we believe is inconsistent with the Bible. Your preceding examples aren't bad, but if the same poster continues to do that...

The subject of what we call eternal progression is controversial for us as it does differ from other Christian religions...I include us as Christians and others disagree I am sure. No that does not mean that Christ is not the only Way...one cannot travel that road without accepting him as Savior and Lord. I understand that that may seem to some as salvation by works but as I said he is the only road there.

Eternal progression is not controversial; the doctrine is sound. However, it is the speculative 'hows' and 'whats' of the doctrine of eternal progression that are controversial, as we know little more than it is sound doctrine.

Just a thought. I hope I do not seem blasphemous as some may think this so but this is our reasoning in the eternal progression subject.

How many of you have children?

How many of you want to see your children stay children forever?

I am guessing none.

Second query.

Can we understand something infinite?

Can we know God as well as He knows us if we are limited as we are?

Does not the Bible tell us now we see through a glass darkly but then we shall know *even as we are known*?

That is not possible for me now. Is it possible for someone in the heaven of what I call "Mainstream Christianity" (no offense intended that is meant to be respectful...if there is another term let me know...) to know his or her Heavenly Father as well as He knows His child if he or she is still a child?

Good questions, but I kind of lost you when you talked about the 'heaven of Mainstream Christianity'.

Good job being a defender of the faith and an example of Christ, Berean! Keep up the good work.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

hello berean, my friend....it's nice to see you on this site as well. :)

[Berean]

WOW...you are seriously a Mormon?

And you did not answer my question that I have seen...sorry if I am embarrassing you but are you or have you ever been a model? *blushes*

I've been right before...

[bodhigirlsmiles]

WOW...you are seriously a Mormon?

And you did not answer my question that I have seen...sorry if I am embarrassing you but are you or have you ever been a model? *blushes*

I've been right before...

are you talking to me?? i am afraid i am not a mormon....i am buddhist and have always been. i have a lot of really great lds friends and have always admired and respected them and their beliefs.

model?? LOL hardly. you are too kind.

[Berean]

Sorry there is a lot to Buddhism that is really valuable...so peaceful. But I think you know that.

[Berean]

Could I please ask an endowed member a question that will be vague enough to respect the sacredness of the information we have received? If I give you the question asked me you will know what I mean and perhaps be able to council me. I do not wish to lie but this is...

[justamere10]

Could I please ask an endowed member a question that will be vague enough to respect the sacredness of the information we have received? If I give you the question asked me you will know what I mean and perhaps be able to council me. I do not wish to lie but this is...

You may want to go to LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage to ask your question. The question is then forwarded to a list of well-informed Latter-day Saints. Some of them will probably respond.

[JohnnyRudick]

. . .Good answer- continue to use the language of the Bible because much of our doctrine is derived from it. However, you would make more of an impact by putting accompanying verses in parentheses, such as inserting (James 2:26) next to your words 'faith without works is dead' so they see the Biblical concept you are explaining. Also, make the online scriptures at lds.org your new best friend, and use HTML/BBCcode hyper linking to link ALL scriptural references to their corresponding scripture there. . .

Paul does not differ that much from James or Peter about faith and works if you study and pay attention.

Paul also seemed to believe that some can "believe", but without salvation of the father through the Son.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the

gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received,

and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

You cannot be "saved" in vain belief.

That's what Paul preached as well.

Yes you can take statement out to prove "just believe and all's well"

OK, let's say you get "saved" by signing on.

Paul preached that once "saved" you were expected to "work" for rewards.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye

are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than

that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for

the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;

and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built

thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall

suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,

and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him

shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye

are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among

you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that

he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness

with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own

craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of

the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all

things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the

world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come;

all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borean View Post

Jesus Christ is the Son of God begotten by the Holy Spirit.

The LDS leadership (Prophets and Apostles) disagrees with this statement.

They teach that Jesus Christ was begotten not by the Holy Spirit, but rather, by actual physical intercourse of God the Father (who they believe exists in a physical, flesh and blood body like ours), and Mary. . .

Most of Christianity believe that the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are one and the same just different faces of the same God.

We believe that they are in fact three different individuals within the Godhead.

I know that the latter is true so if we say that the Son of God was conceived by the Holy Ghost, knowing what we know of the Godhead we would be making God a lair for He says He is His Son in whom He is well pleased.

For He is the Son of the Father which is in Heaven.

The Scripture tells it the way it does as there was no possible way that Mary could have conceived the child Jesus without the power of the Holy Ghost.

I could go on here but. . .

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 16, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spelling

[bert10]

Hi JohnnyRudik.

Before I answer some of your questions....I comes down to this. - Understanding the difference between Belief and knowledge.

A belief which Christians have may or may not be true. A belief is also not knowledge. A man can never go from the Belief Stage to the Knowledge stage without having "Experiencing it Spiritually." We know something to be true or not when we have experienced it. Many confuse beliefs as knowledge even as truth because many others say it.

--------------------------------------------------

""Most of Christianity believe that the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are one and the same just different faces of the same God.

We believe that they are in fact three different individuals within the Godhead.

I know that the latter is true so if we say that the Son of God was conceived by the Holy Ghost, knowing what we know of the Godhead we would be making God a lair for He says He is His Son in whom He is well pleased.

For He is the Son of the Father which is in Heaven.

The Scripture tells it the way it does as there was no possible way that Mary could have conceived the child Jesus without the power of the Holy Ghost.""

You are attempting to know what is Spiritual by carnal means...And so you cannot know which version is true or better or best....Unless you received it from God.

Stephen made is clear that He was seeing the Son at the right hand of the Father. Now whether the Father has a Spiritual body or not...you cannot know unless it is given to you to know.

1 Corinthians 2:13 - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You want to know what is true...then begin to believe and live the promises the promises of God concerning asking, seeking and knocking. That is how it works spiritually.

-----------------------------------------------------

Faith and works.

I know many things are said. People take the verses they like and formulate beleifs. Faith only [sola] by Luther is an error.

The free gift of God to all men. Is the resurrection. All men shall participate either in the resurrection of the just or of the unjusts.

What God said in Mathew and again in the book of revelations...what we shall be judged on is on all of works. [thoughts, words and deeds]

Jesus said that there are many mansions and so there are. And each one of us will receive a place in one of the many mansions of God. However, the goal is to return to the Father. And no man can return to the Father unless he does all things that Christ has commanded to do.

Men shall live by the bread of heaven [All the words of God that comes to them in their hearts from heaven]

What is Eternal Life? Remember the beginning...To know something is to know it Spiritually. Because our senses lie to us. The title the Only True GOD belongs to the Father....And that is Eternal Life...to know this part for oneself without and a shred of doubt Spiritually.

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

All men who do not commit the Sin that is not forgiven in this world or in the next are saved. Only sons of Perditions are cast in the Outer darkness.

It takes faith to do even the littlest type of Works. Whether a work is done for good or evil...behind is faith. Anyway our works shall Determine the level of our happiness in the next world.

--------------------------------------------

This post is big enough. Besides gotta go.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[JohnnyRudick]

Hi JohnnyRudik.

Before I answer some of your questions....I comes down to this. - Understanding the difference between Belief and knowledge.

A belief which Christians have may or may not be true. A belief is also not knowledge. A man can never go from the Belief Stage to the Knowledge stage without having "Experiencing it Spiritually." We know something to be true or not when we have experienced it. Many confuse beliefs as knowledge even as truth because many others say it.

--------------------------------------------------

""Most of Christianity believe that the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are one and the same just different faces of the same God.

We believe that they are in fact three different individuals within the Godhead.

I know that the latter is true so if we say that the Son of God was conceived by the Holy Ghost, knowing what we know of the Godhead we would be making God a lair for He says He is His Son in whom He is well pleased.

For He is the Son of the Father which is in Heaven.

The Scripture tells it the way it does as there was no possible way that Mary could have conceived the child Jesus without the power of the Holy Ghost.""

You are attempting to know what is Spiritual by carnal means...And so you cannot know which version is true or better or best....Unless you received it from God.

First, I speak for myself and not for the Church.

Forgive me if I leave stuff out as I am doing this on the fly again and I try to make seance but. . .

Also I know you can't sit here reading this one post all day long:)

I use the term belief in my context as a generally used term among the world.

O know for myself the difference between "I Know" and "I believe".

I say to you through the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is indeed the Christ, the Son of the Father of whom He was sent.

That He came to earth was born of a virgin by the Father through the power of the Holy Ghost of whom I have mentioned.

He set up His Church and after He set up His Church He was crucified by wicked men and rose after three days and nights in the tomb.

Died on a bad Wednesday and rose on a good Saturday dawning toward the First Day of the week.

He carried my sins and the sins of the whole world into that garden and on to that cross.

Died and went to Hell in my stead and lead the righteous captive free.

The Church was persecuted by the establishment church and fled into the wilderness until the Lord brought forth the Bible from the bits and pieces of the Scriptures that survived through all those centuries that the church was in hiding making it easier for the remnants of the Church to come out.

But even though the persecution was not as rough from the daughters of the establishment church that had escaped because of the Scripture brought forth. that is for the most part, God now set up a way for them to flee to the new world and start a new life.

This set up an environment where God rose up Joseph Smith and restored the original Church that the Remnant of God and those who would flee from the Great and Abominable Church could flee to and restore, renew and start the covenants of God.

Renewing their souls for a New life in Christ Jesus under His prophet Joseph Smith.

history backs this up.

The Scripture backs this up.

The witness of the Holy Ghost to me backs this up.

Bro. Rudick