"conceived In Sin--do Lds Believe That?

[Cal]

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Although being intimate with your spouse is ordained of God and commanded in order to multiply and replenish the earth, when conception occurs, that conemption then becomes suseptable to death. That is mortality. Mortality make us an enemy to God because we are sinful. So the potential to sin comes at conception.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Being conceived in sin only means being conceived into corruption or the physical world.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Although being intimate with your spouse is ordained of God and commanded in order to multiply and replenish the earth, when conception occurs, that conemption then becomes suseptable to death. That is mortality. Mortality make us an enemy to God because we are sinful. So the potential to sin comes at conception.

Good answer, Fatboys

I answered this question in the other thread, but I will repeat it again here. The sexual act is not the sin this scripture refers to. It is our nature. The natural man is an enemy to God. We are sinful by nature. Mortality is sinful. We can only become not sinful by being perfected in Christ, and that at the final resurrection/judgment.

Alma 19:67 (RLDS) ........... therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order; everything to its natural frame; mortality raised to immortality; corruption to incorruption; raised to endless happiness, to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery, to inherit the kingdom of the devil;

Alma 3:27-31 (RLDS)

27 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, Have ye spiritually been born of God?

28 Have ye received his image in your countenances?

29 Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

30 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you?

31 Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God, to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Although being intimate with your spouse is ordained of God and commanded in order to multiply and replenish the earth, when conception occurs, that conemption then becomes suseptable to death. That is mortality. Mortality make us an enemy to God because we are sinful. So the potential to sin comes at conception.

Since when did a newborn have the potential to sin? You don't get the potential to sin until you can make a rational decision. The issue was how is it possible to be concieved in sin, not whether we acquire the ability to sin, later--there is no question about that, is there?

So again, how can anyone be "concieved in sin", if there is nothing sinful about legitimate conception? Where is the sin in it?

The idea that our mortality makes us an enemy to God begs the question. First, just how does our mortality, in and of itself, do that? It's not that we are going to die, which is the definition of mortality, that offends God; it is that when we are old enough to understand the nature and quality of our actions, we can make mistakes or sin.

But, we're not even BORN into that, we can't sin until later, so how are we BORN or CONCIEVED in sin?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 24 2005, 11:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 24 2005, 11:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Being conceived in sin only means being conceived into corruption or the physical world.

Now you are distorting the meaning of the word sin. You are making it mean whatever you want it to mean so that the scripture doesn't sound stupid. Sin is the act of offending God. If it means everything else too, including simply existing in the physical world, then how do we "repent" of our sins? Are you seriously suggesting we repent of being physically present in the world? Because that is the logical consequence of defining sin the way you are. The world is sinful just because we are going to die--that is we live in a world where everybody dies, and that is sinful?

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 25 2005, 08:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 25 2005, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Fatboy@Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Although being intimate with your spouse is ordained of God and commanded in order to multiply and replenish the earth, when conception occurs, that conemption then becomes suseptable to death. That is mortality. Mortality make us an enemy to God because we are sinful. So the potential to sin comes at conception.

Since when did a newborn have the potential to sin? You don't get the potential to sin until you can make a rational decision. The issue was how is it possible to be concieved in sin, not whether we acquire the ability to sin, later--there is no question about that, is there?

So again, how can anyone be "concieved in sin", if there is nothing sinful about legitimate conception? Where is the sin in it?

The idea that our mortality makes us an enemy to God begs the question. First, just how does our mortality, in and of itself, do that? It's not that we are going to die, which is the definition of mortality, that offends God; it is that when we are old enough to understand the nature and quality of our actions, we can make mistakes or sin.

But, we're not even BORN into that, we can't sin until later, so how are we BORN or CONCIEVED in sin?

I see you want to nit pick something apart. Sin denotes corruption. A child has the potential to sin and you are correct that until they come to the age accountibility they can not sin. Sin is knowing and understanding the consequences of our choice to disobey. However a child can disobey. Adam was like a little child when he made the choice to disobey. We know this because they had not yet knowledge of Good and Evil. So Adam disobeyed the law, which brings the same consequences as if he had known the law and understood law. As I have said, Christ did more than just pay for sin. Christ paid for all disobedience. Even if a person had been born and not committed sin, or was perfect, they would not have the power to overcome the sin or corruption of death. Christ also overcame this as the first fruits of the resurrection. A gift given to all who are born. So we could say we were conceived or born into sin.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Jan 27 2005, 11:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Jan 27 2005, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 25 2005, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by -Fatboy@Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Although being intimate with your spouse is ordained of God and commanded in order to multiply and replenish the earth, when conception occurs, that conemption then becomes suseptable to death. That is mortality. Mortality make us an enemy to God because we are sinful. So the potential to sin comes at conception.

Since when did a newborn have the potential to sin? You don't get the potential to sin until you can make a rational decision. The issue was how is it possible to be concieved in sin, not whether we acquire the ability to sin, later--there is no question about that, is there?

So again, how can anyone be "concieved in sin", if there is nothing sinful about legitimate conception? Where is the sin in it?

The idea that our mortality makes us an enemy to God begs the question. First, just how does our mortality, in and of itself, do that? It's not that we are going to die, which is the definition of mortality, that offends God; it is that when we are old enough to understand the nature and quality of our actions, we can make mistakes or sin.

But, we're not even BORN into that, we can't sin until later, so how are we BORN or CONCIEVED in sin?

I see you want to nit pick something apart. Sin denotes corruption. A child has the potential to sin and you are correct that until they come to the age accountibility they can not sin. Sin is knowing and understanding the consequences of our choice to disobey. However a child can disobey. Adam was like a little child when he made the choice to disobey. We know this because they had not yet knowledge of Good and Evil. So Adam disobeyed the law, which brings the same consequences as if he had known the law and understood law. As I have said, Christ did more than just pay for sin. Christ paid for all disobedience. Even if a person had been born and not committed sin, or was perfect, they would not have the power to overcome the sin or corruption of death. Christ also overcame this as the first fruits of the resurrection. A gift given to all who are born. So we could say we were conceived or born into sin.

What? Now death is a sin? You are just mincing words. The fact is, the scriputure says we are concieved in sin, and you don't dispute that. You also agree that a tiny infant can't sin. So how then can there be anything sinful about conception? All that double talk about this being a corruptable world doens't change the plain meaning----and the fact that JS later reversed the concept and said " man isn't going to be punished for adam's sins".

The only way you seem to think you can get out of this is to change the meaning of the word sin to some vague "corruptablility of the flesh" thing. But that is neve what is meant by sin. The use of the word in mormondum is an offense against God.

[pushka]

Perhaps it would be better to just accept the 'original sin' theory and stop all the arguing!!!

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 27 2005, 05:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 27 2005, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Fatboy@Jan 27 2005, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 25 2005, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by -Fatboy@Jan 24 2005, 09:12 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 23 2005, 11:22 AM

Moses 6: 55 says: And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

My question relates the first part of this statement. Are we suppose to believe that children are conceived in sin? Is there anything sinful about legitimate conception? What is sinful about a child? Where does this sin come from? I thought mormons didn't subscribe to the old "original sin" theory.

Although being intimate with your spouse is ordained of God and commanded in order to multiply and replenish the earth, when conception occurs, that conemption then becomes suseptable to death. That is mortality. Mortality make us an enemy to God because we are sinful. So the potential to sin comes at conception.

Since when did a newborn have the potential to sin? You don't get the potential to sin until you can make a rational decision. The issue was how is it possible to be concieved in sin, not whether we acquire the ability to sin, later--there is no question about that, is there?

So again, how can anyone be "concieved in sin", if there is nothing sinful about legitimate conception? Where is the sin in it?

The idea that our mortality makes us an enemy to God begs the question. First, just how does our mortality, in and of itself, do that? It's not that we are going to die, which is the definition of mortality, that offends God; it is that when we are old enough to understand the nature and quality of our actions, we can make mistakes or sin.

But, we're not even BORN into that, we can't sin until later, so how are we BORN or CONCIEVED in sin?

I see you want to nit pick something apart. Sin denotes corruption. A child has the potential to sin and you are correct that until they come to the age accountibility they can not sin. Sin is knowing and understanding the consequences of our choice to disobey. However a child can disobey. Adam was like a little child when he made the choice to disobey. We know this because they had not yet knowledge of Good and Evil. So Adam disobeyed the law, which brings the same consequences as if he had known the law and understood law. As I have said, Christ did more than just pay for sin. Christ paid for all disobedience. Even if a person had been born and not committed sin, or was perfect, they would not have the power to overcome the sin or corruption of death. Christ also overcame this as the first fruits of the resurrection. A gift given to all who are born. So we could say we were conceived or born into sin.

What? Now death is a sin? You are just mincing words. The fact is, the scriputure says we are concieved in sin, and you don't dispute that. You also agree that a tiny infant can't sin. So how then can there be anything sinful about conception? All that double talk about this being a corruptable world doens't change the plain meaning----and the fact that JS later reversed the concept and said " man isn't going to be punished for adam's sins".

The only way you seem to think you can get out of this is to change the meaning of the word sin to some vague "corruptablility of the flesh" thing. But that is neve what is meant by sin. The use of the word in mormondum is an offense against God.

Sin denotes imperfection. Mortality is imperfection. There does that make more sense? I don't know how else to explain it. No such thing as original sin. Sin was brought in to the world by disobedience by Adam.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Jan 28 2005, 10:07 PM

Sin denotes imperfection. Mortality is imperfection. There does that make more sense? I don't know how else to explain it. No such thing as original sin. Sin was brought in to the world by disobedience by Adam.

As far as I can remember, 'original sin' was the sin of Adam and Eve when Eve had her dealings with the snake in the garden of Eden...are you talking of another disobedience that was committed?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by pushka+Jan 29 2005, 02:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pushka @ Jan 29 2005, 02:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Jan 28 2005, 10:07 PM

Sin denotes imperfection. Mortality is imperfection. There does that make more sense? I don't know how else to explain it. No such thing as original sin. Sin was brought in to the world by disobedience by Adam.

As far as I can remember, 'original sin' was the sin of Adam and Eve when Eve had her dealings with the snake in the garden of Eden...are you talking of another disobedience that was committed?

Original sin means that we are all guilty of, or responsible for, Adam's sin. That everyone has to pay for Adam's sin. Which is a ridiculous concept. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. And since a baby cannot sin, then a baby doesn't have to "pay for it".

I don't understand the whole controversy, anyway. Since Christ paid for our sins, once we accept Him and repent, those sins are blotted out from our record. If someone doesn't accept Christ, he has a lot more than original sin to worry about.

It is a really stupid discussion.

[Amillia]

Where are my post replies to this thread. I have made three just on this page alone!

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 29 2005, 06:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 29 2005, 06:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -pushka@Jan 29 2005, 02:12 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Jan 28 2005, 10:07 PM

Sin denotes imperfection. Mortality is imperfection. There does that make more sense? I don't know how else to explain it. No such thing as original sin. Sin was brought in to the world by disobedience by Adam.

As far as I can remember, 'original sin' was the sin of Adam and Eve when Eve had her dealings with the snake in the garden of Eden...are you talking of another disobedience that was committed?

Original sin means that we are all guilty of, or responsible for, Adam's sin. That everyone has to pay for Adam's sin. Which is a ridiculous concept. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. And since a baby cannot sin, then a baby doesn't have to "pay for it".

I don't understand the whole controversy, anyway. Since Christ paid for our sins, once we accept Him and repent, those sins are blotted out from our record. If someone doesn't accept Christ, he has a lot more than original sin to worry about.

It is a really stupid discussion.

I agree that the discussion has taken a hopeless turn for the worse. The Moses scripture I was taking issue with had us being "concieved in sin". Then Fatboy insisted on redefining sin to mean the imperfection of mortality. I always thought that sin was something you could repent of. How do you repent of being mortal?