Hill Cumorah Expedition Team

[Blessed]

Okay, well, I am curios as to how KevinB got here and do I know him? Kevin have we met before?

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 27 2005, 09:03 PM

What can you tell us, if anything, about the reputation of Neil Steede. He was educated at Graceland, and elsewhere, that connotes something. Is he a serious archeologist?

Does this have any trappings that earmark it as a serious and valid endeavor?

When did you go to the U?

I had never personally heard of Steede until now, but what I have been able to glean during the last couple of days plants him firmly in the "fringe".

He is not educated as an archaeologist having simply an "MA in General Studies".

He is absent from mainstream archaeological publications and seems heavily vested in a number of theories that require the complete suspension of a world of known fact to "buy into them". He is an archaeologist, it seems, along the lines of fanciful theories such as those presented in works such as Chariots of the Gods, Fingerprints of the Gods,The Forbidden Archaeology.

He seems to be heavily vested, to the point of ignoring what we DO know, in several general concepts: that the New World was populated far earlier than has ever been conceived of, that a multitude of Old World languages are evidenced in Mesoamerican artifacts (bricks, to be exact) along with Mayan heiroglyphs. He participated in an NBC special; The Mysterious Origins of Man, which was universally panned by scientists and non scientists alike.

Obviously, I would not put any money on this person to be the one to definitively prove that a hill in Mexico is Cumorah, at least until he instills some sound scientific method into his research design, but this seems a person who seems oblivious to the important of process,provenence and context and is very much single artifact oriented in drawing broad conclusions heavily weighted with bias.

IMO, this has NONE of the necessities of a serious and valid endeavor, much less the trappings. Simply the idea of including amateurs with NO training in how to approach plotting, mapping and systematically excavating a site makes me a little queasy. Archaeology is far more than the digging of holes and finding artifacts. In this century anyway.

Afterthought: I belong to a listserve of New World Archaeologists, I can inquire about this fellow, but I pretty much know what the answers will be.

[Jenda]

He was also an archeologist for the Mexican government for 11 years, and supervised or participated in over 200 digs. He is frequently paid by institutions or museums to examine controversial claims. I am sure he understand the process, as much as I am equally sure that nobody is going to fund a professional dig, fund the man hours it would take to study and identify all the artifacts, as well as pay for expensive dating proceedures to be done just to find the hidden plates. It just won't happen.

Maybe you, with all your supposed expertise, can offer, free of charge, of course, to do some of this work for him so it can be done "right".

[Idacat]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jan 27 2005, 06:00 AM

I have seen many, many references from those in LDS leadership positions that Hill Cumorah is in NY. These references include talks given by apostles, as well as a letter by F. Michael Watson, Secretary to the First Presidency.

Since there is no evidence of a war in NY, are LDS (& RLDS) just looking wherever they can possibly find evidence of many dying in a war? And just b/c it occurred within the same time frame as the war in the BoM, isn't it a far stretch to say that the artifacts are from the war in question?

Just a comment on the subject of the hill Cumorah (or any other significant archaeological evidence) being present in what is now New York, or, for that matter, any of the eastern two thirds of the U.S.

If the sites we hoped to find were located in these areas, and the Book of Mormon peoples therefore being the indigenous inhabitants of these areas, we would not find much, if any, archaeological evidence of them.

This is simply because the ancient peoples who populated these areas did not leave us much in the way of hard archaeological evidence in the first place, as did the ancient peoples of the Southwestern US and Mesoamerica. We have artifacts in terms of stone an some pottery, as well as soapstone, there are mound sites that yield information on things like subsistance,and there is evidence of trade in pottery and soapstone, but these people did not build buildings of materials that could withstand time, even as well as the mud structures of the Fremont with whom I am most familiar. Even in the case of the Fremont there is a dearth of human remains among the archaeology to indicate "many dying in a war".

So, archaeologically speaking, it would be extremely handy if these sites were in Mexico/Mesoamerica as those cultures left a lot of durable evidence behind.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 27 2005, 10:52 PM

He is frequently paid by institutions or museums to examine controversial claims...............

Indeed this seems his only forte' although the funding doesn't appear to be institutions such as universities and most of the controversial artifacts or evidence seem to be those in which he has a vested interest.

Maybe he could write a grant proposal and submit it to the National Science Foundation or. better yet, National Geographic, which funds the majority of BYU's Mesoamerican projects.

I'm sorry, but this is not the way science is done, and if he expects his work to be accepted he needs to do it right. I have no clue as to whether he knows how but doesn't bother because of lack of funding, but I do know that no archaeologist with any integrity would plow ahead willy nilly under these circumstances; they would let the site sit rather than do it wrong and ruin the integrity of any data found.

I don't know of many archaeologists who are cited on UFO sites. He is.

[Snow]

Idacat,

That's kind of the feeling I got. On the things I googled with his name, "Erich von Däniken" popped up regularly - not a good sign.

Jenda,

You seem a bit defensive - it not like most all of us want Neil to NOT be successful. I disagree with you about support for these kind of endeavors. I don't keep up on this kind of stuff but BYU seems pretty active in this kind of thing.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Idacat@Jan 27 2005, 09:38 PM

I don't know of many archaeologists who are cited on UFO sites. He is.

He was called "the American archaeoastronomer Neil Steede."

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Snow+Jan 27 2005, 11:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jan 27 2005, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Idacat@Jan 27 2005, 09:38 PM

I don't know of many archaeologists who are cited on UFO sites. He is.

He was called "the American archaeoastronomer Neil Steede."

Wow.

I'm going to have to come up with something more spectacular than how intrasite spatial organization relates to social structure to beat that one

[john doe]

Originally posted by Idacat+Jan 27 2005, 07:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Jan 27 2005, 07:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--john doe@Jan 27 2005, 08:30 PM

......... And while I do share some of the same doubts as Idacat on this story, I have no idea who he is..........

Make that she, would you?

Oh, sorry, excuse me, I didn't know.

BTW, welcome to the board, I hope you decide to stick around and post more. I've enjoyed your input so far.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by john doe@Jan 27 2005, 11:54 PM

BTW, welcome to the board, I hope you decide to stick around and post more. I've enjoyed your input so far.

Thanks, although I've been reading since Septemeber, I guess it took something "along my line" to make me post more than once I think my only other actual post was about the church welfare system or endowments for young people only if they are going on a mission of getting married since those are the other two threads I remember having an interest in.

[john doe]

Originally posted by Idacat+Jan 27 2005, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Jan 27 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--john doe@Jan 27 2005, 11:54 PM

BTW, welcome to the board, I hope you decide to stick around and post more. I've enjoyed your input so far.

Thanks, although I've been reading since Septemeber, I guess it took something "along my line" to make me post more than once I think my only other actual post was about the church welfare system or endowments for young people only if they are going on a mission of getting married since those are the other two threads I remember having an interest in.

Well, if you have an interest in something not already posted, feel free to start a thread yourself. I know I don't do that much myself, but it does help a person get involved more if they feel like they have invested a little in the experience. And don't feel intimidated about maybe being wrong about something, some of the most prolific posters here are wrong much of the time.

[Kevinb93]

How I got here is quite simple. I'm an administrator for the Cumorah Teams site and this site came up as one of the referrers. I was curious. I haven't ever heard what people think about my testimony. Then I wanted to answer some of the questions that were raised here. Blessed, I don't have any idea if I know you or not - I don't know your name....

It has been interesting to read the progression of everyone's thoughts and reasoning. I think it's great. It's also hard for me to hear. At the same time, I've learned a lot about the way perceptions work and what information is more important to add validity to it. Idacat raises a lot of important questions. The scientific integrity is very important. How she raises them is less than admirable.... To question is one thing, to be condescending and rude is another. Most people on here are very articulate and ask important questions, politely.

To answer a few lingering questions; the transliteration is being done into Latin because it is an easier alphabet to use, then over to Hebrew. Then it goes off to 3 different linguists for decipherment. The only reason to transfer to Latin is it's an easy alphabet to use.

The integrity of the site is important - CRUCIAL. We have NOT done any digging. NONE We have been trying to get into a cave. There is no site. When I dug up the tablet, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS GOING TO FIND! We know it isn't a scientific find. Yes the tablet is out of context scientifically. The Holy Spirit said dig and I did. I was as shocked as anyone else at what I found. That's the whole point! This wasn't supposed to be something that man scientifically produced! God wanted this to be found on HIS terms, not ours! As for future expeditions, think of us as Neil’s hired hands. If you were in Mexico and in charge of a dig, you would have locals doing the grunt work. That's exactly what we are doing for him - out of love and respect for him and a belief in the cause. We pay our own way; take our own time off of work. If we ever get into this cave or any other, we already have protocol. We secure the entrance and bring in Neil. He makes all of the decisions. We aren't supposed to touch the walls of the caves or even step on the dirt, so as to not compromise the integrity of the site. We aren't imbeciles. Neil isn't a loon. He DOES have a total understanding of archeological protocol. No willy nilly here.... Although I would have to say that he has very admirable persistence.

As for NY, come on..... Are you kidding me? You really think that the majestic cities talked about in the BOM wouldn't stand the test of time? You really think that they were talking about mound builders? If you really want to put this baby to rest, then look up what Joseph Smith said about Stevens and Catherwood...........

As for Neil appearing on UFO sites and out of the mainstream stuff, he finds it interesting. I find it very admirable that he would look at the world outside of the box, knowing that it puts his reputation on the line. As a scientist he is curious. I wish that more scientists would be willing to do that. Too often it seems that egos get in the way.......

I'm not trying to infiltrate your forum. I just wanted the discussion to be based on first hand info instead of hear say.

I'm always happy to answer more questions.......

[Guest flmom]

I am so glad to see you here Kevin. Please continue to contribute your experiences and insight here.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 27 2005, 10:38 PM

Jenda,

You seem a bit defensive - it not like most all of us want Neil to NOT be successful. I disagree with you about support for these kind of endeavors. I don't keep up on this kind of stuff but BYU seems pretty active in this kind of thing.

I am not as much defensive as irritated that people sit in their chairs and judge anothers interest and intent without so much as knowing that person and the precautions they have taken, and post rude, condescending remarks about it just because it either goes against your belief in where these records should turn up, or because it is not being done by your pet institution. Instead of asking questions you cast doubt. You do nothing to show that you are a reasonable, civilized person at all. And it irritates me at times.

To go by your reasoning, I should poo-poo everything FARMS and FAIR has done, but I realize that any apologetics that support the BoM is helpful. Just because I think that half their interpretations are wacked is beside the point.

You might disagree with me about support for the project, but (if you read the posts), you would see that BYU has no interest in this. IMO, BYU can't have any interest in it because the LDS church is wed to NY being the site of Hill Cumorah, and BYU, being in the church's back pocket, cannot embrace something that goes against what the church espouses. Added to it is the fact that the mountain is in Mexico, and so it is under the Mexican govt. jurisdiction. So, mighty, knoweldgable Snow, with BYU out of the picture, as well as the US govt. (in forms of grants, etc.), maybe you can suggest someone with deep pockets that is willing to fund a project like this. By all means, add something constructive to the conversation instead of derogatory remarks.

[Blessed]

Well, Kevin, I don't you received the proper welcome around here... so Welcome!!!

ALso, I loved it when you wrote that the Holy Spirit told you to dig and you did! It shows you are an obedient soul who wishes to seek the truth. I pray God's continued guidance and blessing on your digs and just the whole projects. And if you need another pair of arms to help shovel... I wouldn't mind coming down to help. I will be in Independence in June and then driving to TX for a while... I live in Alaska presently. When are you going next?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 28 2005, 05:39 AM

I am not as much defensive as irritated that people sit in their chairs and judge anothers interest and intent without so much as knowing that person and the precautions they have taken, and post rude, condescending remarks about it just because it either goes against your belief in where these records should turn up, or because it is not being done by your pet institution. Instead of asking questions you cast doubt. You do nothing to show that you are a reasonable, civilized person at all. And it irritates me at times.

To go by your reasoning, I should poo-poo everything FARMS and FAIR has done, but I realize that any apologetics that support the BoM is helpful. Just because I think that half their interpretations are wacked is beside the point.

You might disagree with me about support for the project, but (if you read the posts), you would see that BYU has no interest in this. IMO, BYU can't have any interest in it because the LDS church is wed to NY being the site of Hill Cumorah, and BYU, being in the church's back pocket, cannot embrace something that goes against what the church espouses. Added to it is the fact that the mountain is in Mexico, and so it is under the Mexican govt. jurisdiction. So, mighty, knoweldgable Snow, with BYU out of the picture, as well as the US govt. (in forms of grants, etc.), maybe you can suggest someone with deep pockets that is willing to fund a project like this. By all means, add something constructive to the conversation instead of derogatory remarks.

Jenda,

Your imagination has run wild. It is only you, and you alone, who is worried that Kevin and Neil's project goes against anyone's belief or that their gig isn't someone's pet institution. When it comes to, oh say... Brigham Young, you are one of the most rude, condescending posters I know but heaven forbid that I should be even a fraction of that way with Kevin and you act as if I have personally insulted you. It's not like I think Neil borrowed WF Albright's horse to impersonate a real archaeologist.

Now, if FARMs were to to go about an archaeological expedition the way Kevin represents that his team did and the some guy from FARMs claimed to be God's personal mouthpiece to all mankind ("...then the world:  It has started.") then by all means, poo-poo away and I'll be the first in line to join you.

Kevin seems nice enough, I just don't think that God has choosen him as his mouthpiece on a bringing forth some momentous rolling forth meant for the whole world. Since I think that idea is absurd, then I have to fall back on the scientific merit of their endeavor. I'm not much qualified judge that but when I see Neil Steede's name associated with Von Daniken and Cabrera and not with real archaeologist then I suspect that the effort is suspect.

BTW, you obviously are out of step with what BYU or FARMS thinks about the location or what must be the location of the Book of Mormon events. For that matter since Deseret Books, the official publishing arm of the LDS Church publishes their works, maybe the Church itself isn't so married to NY as you think. Kevin doesn't say exactly where their project is happening but if by Tuxtepec he means San Jaun Bautista Tuxtepce then FARMS would probably be very interested if Steede had any credibility in as much as it would put it right smack in the middle of what John Sorenson (FARMS), who was chairman of the BYU Dept of Anthopology, thinks might have been the site of the BoM. Now much of Kevin's problem might just be that he is website novice and so hasn't posted information that would make his claims less questionable but it was his choice to proclaim himself God's mouthpiece.

[Kevinb93]

Uh, I didn't choose to be His mouth piece. Maybe you don't understand how the Spirit works. Maybe I was prompted to say that because I would, and I would put myself out there for the world, and even snowy here, to ridicule. Try walking in my shoes for a day.......

[Snow]

Originally posted by Kevinb93@Jan 28 2005, 05:33 PM

Uh, I didn't choose to be His mouth piece. Maybe you don't understand how the Spirit works. Maybe I was prompted to say that because I would, and I would put myself out there for the world, and even snowy here, to ridicule. Try walking in my shoes for a day.......

Or maybe I do understand how the Spirit work (I wonder if Jenda noted the condenscension in your post), but just think that it is so highly unlikely that the Spirit actually DID work that way in this specific case that my ridicule (although I think that is a bit harsher than I am trying to convey) is warranted.

Seriously, what are the chances? People who have claimed to be God's mouthpiece over the past 1900 years must surely number if the tens of thousands if not the hundreds of thousands or more yet as we Mormons or Reorganized Mormons or Restorized Mormons believe outside of institutional revelation (though the Church heirarchy subsequent to the formation of the Chruch) is what, pretty much confined to Joseph Smith maybe a smal handful of others - and he prior to the Church hierarchy at that; and all the 1000s and 1000s of others that aspire to be God's mouthpiece are relegated to heap of loons, egoists, the mentally ill and the well-meaning but misguided zealots.

If history is any guide and most usually it is, this all is nothing to get worked up about. Of course, let's see what that Ogam script really says and peer inside that sealed Nephite/Lammanite library/cave and I will be be eating some crow or something - but I'm not counting on it.

[Kevinb93]

That's cool. Skepticism is to be expected. I suppose more important than everyone agreeing is that the information was given and everyone has their agency to make up their own minds. That's what we're all about, right? No hard feelings here.

[Snow]

Okay - I agree. Cool. Like I said - if I am wrong, then I would be as thrilled as anyone. You have a nice touch Kevin.

[Blessed]

I bet people thought Jospeh Smith was not a mouthpiece of God either. Little did they know.

God will use whom He will use and He tends to use though who are more willing to take an abuse.

God bless you, Kevin. I would rather stay in my own shoes though. They fit my feet well... oh wait, I don't like to wear shoes... that is why I tend to be barefoot most of the time!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Blessed@Jan 29 2005, 04:41 PM

I bet people thought Jospeh Smith was not a mouthpiece of God either. Little did they know.

God will use whom He will use and He tends to use though who are more willing to take an abuse.

So Blessed,

You think that God has called Kevin to be his mouthpiece like He called Joseph Smith to be his mouthpiece?

Tell us about that.

[Guest curvette]

Would someone please explain to me what Ogam has to do with the Book of Mormon? From what I understand, it's history can't be traced back before several centuries AD.

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 29 2005, 08:03 PM

Would someone please explain to me what Ogam has to do with the Book of Mormon? From what I understand, it's history can't be traced back before several centuries AD.

"Ogham (OH-yam), or Ogam is believed to have been devised by the Irish somewhere between the first and third centuries AD. Surviving examples place its' primary use to the Christian period, however, some Celtic scholars believe it to be of far greater antiquity."

Dinna you know that Nephi's full name was Conner Nephi O'Reilly?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Jan 29 2005, 09:21 PM

"Ogham (OH-yam), or Ogam is believed to have been devised by the Irish somewhere between the first and third centuries AD. Surviving examples place its' primary use to the Christian period, however, some Celtic scholars believe it to be of far greater antiquity."

And so....why would a rock tablet excavated from the supposed site of the Hill Cumorah be engraved with it? This isn't one of those "Tower of Babel--Adamic language" theories is it?