DESTROYED? Boston, New York City, Albany?

[Michael_Newman]

We have the following:

D&C 84:114-115

• 114 Nevertheless, let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston, and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel, with a loud voice, of the desolation and utter abolishment which await them if they do reject these things.
• 115 For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate.

OBSERVATIONS:

• I noticed the phrase "if they do reject these things", which is not written as a sure event to come. That is a big "IF", is it not?

• I understand that Elder Woodruff, as an Apostle in 1863, added more comments to this in a regional meeting (not General Conference and not as President of the Church).

• I am aware of the Deseret News article and the Journals of Discourse, but I am looking for additional quotes from canonized scripture.

QUESTION 1:

Is there any other approved canonized scripture (Standard Works, General Conference, etc) where we can obtain further insight and clarity?

________________________________________________

QUESTION 2:

Joseph Smith and other prophets have said, "The righteous need not fear."

In my personal belief, perhaps the righteous LDS in New Orleans were spared in the last few years when the city was very nearly destroyed. Perhaps the righteous LDS in Boston, Albany, and New York City will be spared too.

All my best,

Michael

[Maxel]

Interesting thoughts. I have no answers, but I will watch this topic with interest.

If I may be so bold- I believe the judgments that would have come upon those cities if they did not repent would have already come. Personally (and this is just by reading your post and insights, Michael) I think the people repented and were spared utter destruction.

[Gillebre]

I think that this will happen in the coming judgments of the latter-days.

but that's just my opinion.

[Michael_Newman]

I believe the judgments that would have come upon those cities if they did not repent would have already come. Personally (and this is just by reading your post and insights, Michael) I think the people repented and were spared utter destruction.

I believe when the church was first getting started in the 1800's, the population of New York City was around 200,000 - and the immoral climate was off the charts. Today it is over 8 million, and includes a temple. (Perhaps the city will be spared. I hope so.)

As for New Orleans, I think the jury is still out on whether or not the lessons have been learned after Katrina. It is still among the most corrupt cities in America according to many reports. Still, the LDS saints are trying to have a greater influence on doing the good.

[darrel]

Will this do?

Orson Pratt, Millennial Star, Vol 28 pp633-634 October 6, 1866

If it be asked, why is America thus to suffer?" The answer is, because they have rejected the Kindom of God, and one of the greatest divine messages ever sent to man; because they have sanctioned the killing of the Saints, and the marterdom of the Lord's Prophets and have suffered his people to be driven from their midst, and have robbed them of their houses, and homes, and land, and millions of property, and have refused to redress their wrongs. For these great evils, they must suffer; the decrees of Jehovah have gone forth against them; the sward of the Lord has been unsheathed, and will fall with pain upon their devoted heads. Their great and magnificent cityies are to be cut off. New York, Boston, Albany, and numerous other cities will be left desolate. Party will be arrayed in deadly strife against party; State against State; and the whole nation will be broken up; the sanguinary weopons of the dredful revolution will devour the land. Then shall there be a fleeing from one city to another, from one state to another, one part of the continant to another, seeking refuge, from the devistations of bandits and armies; then shall their dead be left unburied, and the fowls of heaven shall summer upon them, and the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them. Moreover, the Lord will visit them with deadly pestilence shich shall sweep away many millions by its ravages; for their eyes shall fall from their sockets, and their flesh from their bones, and their tongues shall be stayed in thier mouths, that they shall not be able to blaspheme against their Maker. And it will come to pass, that the eavens will withold their rains and their fruitful fields be turned into barreness, and the waters of their rivers will be dried up, and left in standing pools, and the fish therein will die; and the Lord will send forth a grievous plague to destroy the horses and cattle from the land. Thus by the sward and by pestilance, and by famine, and by the strong arm of the Almighty, shall the inhabitants of that wicked nation be destroyed.

Source: The Comming of the Lord, The United States in Prophecy, Gerald Lund, page 56

Edited March 16, 2009 by darrel

[darrel]

The revolution spoken of is not the Civil War.

Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses V20, p 151 March 9, 1879

What will be the conditions of that people when this great and terrible war will come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed, and manufacturing will , in a great measure, cease, for a time, amont the American nation. Why? Because in those terrible wars, they will not be proviledged to manufacture; there will be to much bloodshed-too much mobocracy-too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any level of vocation with any degree of safety. What will become of millions of farmers upon that land: they will leave their farms and they will blee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent.

Elder Pratt also spoke of the city of New York and its future in such chaos.

Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 12, p 344, December 27, 1868

For instance the great and populous city of New York, that may be considered one of the greatest cities of the world, will be in a few years become a mass of ruins. The people will wonder while gazing on the ruins that cost hundreds of millions to build, what has become of its inhabitants. Their houses will be there, but they will be left desolate. So sayeth the Lord God. That will be only a sample of numerous other towns and cities on the face of this continent.

The Coming of the Lord, Gerald Lund, United States in Prophecy, page 64-65

[Michael_Newman]

Yes, those are all good journal commentary and general discourses.

But I am looking for canonized scripture, such as official church-wide General Conference statements.

[darrel]

I thought the Millenial Star was a Church publication.

[Moksha]

I thought the Millenial Star was a Church publication.

Perhaps they had no correlating committee at that time.

[Wingnut]

Perhaps the righteous LDS in Boston, Albany, and New York City will be spared too.

Well, see as how there are temples in both Boston and New York City, I doubt the entire cities will be razed to the ground.

I thought the Millenial Star was a Church publication.

So is the Church News, but it doesn't make it official doctrine.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Wingnut

[RavinMaven]

As for New Orleans, I think the jury is still out on whether or not the lessons have been learned after Katrina. It is still among the most corrupt cities in America according to many reports. Still, the LDS saints are trying to have a greater influence on doing the good.

I hope that I am ont taking anyones thougts out of context, but as a resident of the gulf coast, (hurricane Ike went directly over my house) I have lived through a few hurricanes, and went with Mormon Helping Hands to help clean up after Katrina. We have been told over and over again by visiting GA's that these hurricanes, and Katrina in particular DO NOT represent the judgments of God, and that He was not trying to "teach New Orleans a lesson."

That said, I have seen over and over again how the Lord has protected members of the church by teaching them self reliance. After Ike hit I gained a HUGE testimony in the importance of food storage etc. Provident living is now one of by all-time favorite sites.

[Guest JHM-in-Bountiful]

This is a topic I constantly think about. It's sad that these cities will see destruction one day. Just think of all the cities in North America that did not exist in Joseph Smith's time that will also face destruction. I travel alot for pleasure. I often visit many different cities. I'm saddened to be in some of these cities. People go on living their lives. New buildings and roads are being built. They are not aware that their city may face destruction. I take as many photographs and purchase postcards of the cities I visit. That's my way of keeping a record of what the cities "WERE" like. So far all the cities are still intact. However, I did have a chance to go to NYC back in 1992. I video taped the skyline knowing it would be gone one day. The skyline did change on September 11, 2001.

[Faded]

The destruction of these cities have been prophesied with more specifics. I don't think we need to assign any dates and times to such a destruction, but here are the extra details:

Wilford Woodruff:

On 21 August 1863, the Saints had gathered in Logan, Utah to welcome President Brigham Young and others of the Church authorities. The next day, President Young asked Wilford Woodruff to address the congregation.

Yea, the day will come, after your fathers, and these prophets and apostles are dead, you will have the privilege of going into the towers of a glorious Temple built unto the name of the Most High (pointing in the direction of the bench), east of us upon the Logan bench; and while you stand in the towers of the Temple and your eyes survey this glorious valley filled with cities and villages, occupied by tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints, you will then call to mind this visitation of President Young and his company. You will say: That was in the days when Presidents Benson and Maughan presided over us; that was before New York was destroyed by an earthquake; it was before Boston was swept into the sea, by the sea heaving itself beyond its bounds; it was before Albany was destroyed by fire; yea, at that time you will remember the scenes of this day. Treasure them up and forget them not. President Young followed and said: "What Brother Woodruff has said is revelation and will be fulfilled". (Deseret News, Vol. 33, page 678)

If we consider 3Nephi chapters 8-10, I think we can easily conclude that the Second Coming of Christ will be a lot like his First Coming to the Americas. That is to say, there will be a lot of sudden and massive destruction. I've always been of the opinion that this would be the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy above. I'm unwilling to speculate on the "When?" anymore than I'm willing to predict when the Second Coming will be.

I do think that we need to exercise greater caution with pronouncing judgments on cities like New Orleans. If Hurricane Katrina was "the judgment of God falling upon them":

1.) We don't know that for certain. Only God knows.

2.) We have a prophet of God and he did not say any such thing to my recollection. If we needed to understand the fate of New Orleans as "punishment of the wicked" we'd have been told as much.

[Moksha]

As for New Orleans, I think the jury is still out on whether or not the lessons have been learned after Katrina.

What about Newark, NJ? That place could use some urban revitalization big time! Or what about Denver - have they truely learned their lesson from that over budget airport fiasco?

As far as wicked New Orleans goes, did they not learn their lesson when the Jazz went to the Saints?