Mormon Plan Of Eternal Progression

[Guest JeffreyLloyd]

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jenda]

Hey, that is very similar to one we have in our church. In fact, the only difference is that the Celestial Glory is not broken down into exhaltation and other, or without the pre-existant state.

[TannersDad]

There are a couple things that I don't like about this.

1. The title should be The Plan of Salvation. Mormon did not come up with this and his name shouldn't be associated with it. This is the Plan presented by Jesus Christ which was the plan of the Father.

1. I have never seen Intelligences in the Plan of Salvation.

2. The doctrine that we are born according to our merit is false.

3. The veil is not labeled. Its important part of the doctrine that we have forgetten pre-earth life.

4. The purpose of Earth life is two fold. Two receive a physical body and to be tested.

5. I have never thought of Paradise and Spirit Prison as being two distincts places but rather the same place with people being in two different states. Spirit Prison is for people that need to be taught the gospel, so those that had no knowledge of the gospel are in Spirit Prison.

6. Not sure why you have Joseph Smith in the Judgment circle.

7. I don't think we know enough about the levels of the Celestial Kingdom for it to be broken down that way.

8. I don't think that the other kingdoms can be broken down the way you have them. For example, I can see how someone that accepted the gospel could also be in the Terrestial Kingdom.

9. I don't like the Millenium placed where you have it. It will take place on Earth and having it there makes it seem like it does not.

10. We do not believe that Salvation = Resurrection. Salvation = Exhaltation.

11. I have never heard the saying Salvation without Exhaltation is Damnation.

12. Jehovah = Jesus Christ

13. There are more temple ordinances

Really I think you have made it pretty complicated and I am not sure what your point is by making this. The Plan of Salvation is very simple and should not be complicated with all the garbily gook that you have added.

[Amillia]

The concept of intelligences becoming spirits has always intriqued me. Because, Abraham saw us as intelligences, some of which were the noble and great who would become the leaders on earth. If we then became spirits, were we no longer intelligences? Or were we spirit intelligences?

And what was the difference between intelligences and spirits? What changed?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 11 2005, 12:19 PM

The concept of intelligences becoming spirits has always intriqued me. Because, Abraham saw us as intelligences, some of which were the noble and great who would become the leaders on earth. If we then became spirits, were we no longer intelligences? Or were we spirit intelligences?

And what was the difference between intelligences and spirits? What changed?

I always understood that we are made up of many, many intelligence (well, hopefully most of us anyway...) I learned that the intelligences were "added upon" to become the spirit body, and then the physical body was added to the spirit to become the soul.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by TannersDad@Feb 11 2005, 10:33 AM

There are a couple things that I don't like about this.

1. The title should be The Plan of Salvation. Mormon did not come up with this and his name shouldn't be associated with it. This is the Plan presented by Jesus Christ which was the plan of the Father.

1. I have never seen Intelligences in the Plan of Salvation.

2. The doctrine that we are born according to our merit is false.

3. The veil is not labeled. Its important part of the doctrine that we have forgetten pre-earth life.

4. The purpose of Earth life is two fold. Two receive a physical body and to be tested.

5. I have never thought of Paradise and Spirit Prison as being two distincts places but rather the same place with people being in two different states. Spirit Prison is for people that need to be taught the gospel, so those that had no knowledge of the gospel are in Spirit Prison.

6. Not sure why you have Joseph Smith in the Judgment circle.

7. I don't think we know enough about the levels of the Celestial Kingdom for it to be broken down that way.

8. I don't think that the other kingdoms can be broken down the way you have them. For example, I can see how someone that accepted the gospel could also be in the Terrestial Kingdom.

9. I don't like the Millenium placed where you have it. It will take place on Earth and having it there makes it seem like it does not.

10. We do not believe that Salvation = Resurrection. Salvation = Exhaltation.

11. I have never heard the saying Salvation without Exhaltation is Damnation.

12. Jehovah = Jesus Christ

13. There are more temple ordinances

Really I think you have made it pretty complicated and I am not sure what your point is by making this. The Plan of Salvation is very simple and should not be complicated with all the garbily gook that you have added.

Another LDS opinion. (I think they call it "The Plan of Happiness" now.)

1. Intelligences weren't part of our missionary charts, but they are definitely a part of LDS doctrine.

2. The doctrine that we are born by merit is not in any scripture that I know of, but it has definitely been taught by Apostles in the church (including Bruce R.McConkie) If it's not doctrine, that could be a very confusing point to some.

3. Yes, the veil should be there. It is important.

4. Agreed.

5. I think they are separate places. There is a Biblical scripture that touches on this.

6. This is an archaic doctrine, but there was a time that this was believed (Brigham Young and early brethren taught this.)

7. This is doctrine. Those who do not enter into the "New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" can only enter the Celestial Kingdom as angels.

8. There's much more to this in the D&C.

9. There really is no good place to put the Millenium in this chart because there will still be people living on earth when it happens.

10. We do believe that

11. I've never heard that either. I think the belief is that eternal progression is only to be had in the Celestial Kingdom. There is no crossing over between kingdoms, but even some LDS don't believe that.

12. Agreed.

13. Agreed, but those are the ones generally performed now.

[pushka]

Well...it sounds fine for TBM's...but not good news for the rest of us!! LOL....

Sorry but it sounds like a load of codswallop to me...

[Guest curvette]

<<Sorry but it sounds like a load of codswallop to me... >>

Oooooo--I love new words! :) What does it mean? Is it a British thing?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 11 2005, 09:29 PM

<<Sorry but it sounds like a load of codswallop to me... >>

Oooooo--I love new words! :) What does it mean? Is it a British thing?

codswallop

I heard it in a movie recently. But it escapes me which one. I will probably wake up in the middle of the night with it on the tip of my tongue.

Oh, yeah. Harry Potter. Must be a British thing.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 11 2005, 09:41 PM

I heard it in a movie recently. But it escapes me which one. I will probably wake up in the middle of the night with it on the tip of my tongue.

Oh, yeah. Harry Potter. Must be a British thing.

Maybe along the lines of "hogwash?"

[pushka]

LOL...exactly...codswallop, hogwash!! all the same thing...very British!! Hope I didn't offend anyone!!

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 12 2005, 02:36 PM

LOL...exactly...codswallop, hogwash!! all the same thing...very British!! Hope I didn't offend anyone!!

Not at all dahhhling! Everything is less offensive when spoken with a British accent! :)

[pushka]

hehehe...I wont tell you what's going thru my mind at the moment then...even with a British accent!!! I'm in a very mischievous mood!! Say no more...

[pushka]

*mood that is!

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by JeffreyLloyd@Feb 11 2005, 10:15 AM

Thanks,

Jeff

FB: Well there are a lot of things you got right. Although when teaching the gospel to investigators we do not go into that much depth. I guess the first error would be intelligences. You have eternal matter, when all matter is eternal in nature and can not brought from nothing into something. We do know that intelligences were seperate, but are given little knowledge as to what form if any they had. It was only important to know that we have always exist. That we were progressing as part of a eternal plan. God the Father created a spirit body for our intelligences so that we could continue to progress. In my opinion, the joining of our intelligence with spirit matter creates a soul.

Anyway I digress.

Next is born of merit. Some are, they were those who were great and noble spirits in our pre earth life. So apparently there were those who showed a greater commitment to following the laws in the pre earth life. I believe this is part of their character, but when born into this life, even though we can not remember our former life, this essense of character is born with his. The great thing is that we can learn to overcome the negative and follow more completely God.

Next is those who go to paradise and who go to spirit prison. Theifs murders, and unrepentant adulterers, liars, etc, go to spirit prison. Those who go to Parasdise are those who lived to the best of their abilities the laws they are given. Spirit prison is not Hell, although there is weeping and wailing. They can however be taught and given a chance to accept or reject the gospel. The atonement paid for their sins as well, and is infinite and eternal.

The fruits of the first resurrection begin when Christ broke the bands of Death by rising from the dead. Since all who have been born on earth are promised this part of the atonement or salvation, the resurrection is on going. The bible states that many of the ancient saints came from their toombs in the first of the resurrection. We also know that those prophets who restored the gospel in the latter days had also been resurrected already. The last resurrection will be those who will go to the telestial kingdom.

Next is the judgment. "For the Father judgeth no man but hath committed all judgement to the Son."

The only requirement to enter the kingdom of God is baptism by one holding the proper authority. There are many mansions in the Fathers house.

The terrestial Kingdom is reserved for the good and honorable people of the earth. Those who could not accept more truth and light. This will include mormons.

Exhaltation is the goal of all who want it, and abide by the laws and commandments which are required to reach that goal. This means that we be sealed to our spouse by one holding the sealing power to bind in heaven what is bound on earth.

[pushka]

Are there any biblical references to all the above? The eternal plan and the sort of 'caste' system that we came from in our pre-existence? Still sounds like some sort of send up religious script to me...

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 13 2005, 11:29 PM

Are there any biblical references to all the above? The eternal plan and the sort of 'caste' system that we came from in our pre-existence? Still sounds like some sort of send up religious script to me...

Well what specifically did you want referenced? The many mansions/degrees of glory/heavens/judgment/ or what?

1 Cor. 15: 41

41 There is one glory of the asun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the bstars: for one star cdiffereth• from another star in dglory.

BIBLE DICTIONARY

DEGREES OF GLORY

It is apparent that if God rewards everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven as intended for man’s eternal home must include more kingdoms than one. In speaking of man in his resurrected state, Paul tells of glories like the sun, the moon, and the stars (1 Cor. 15: 39-41). He also speaks of the “third heaven” (2 Cor. 12: 2). Jesus spoke of “many mansions” or kingdoms (John 14: 2). Latter-day revelation confirms the teaching of the Bible on these matters and verifies that there are three general categories or glories to which the members of the human family will be assigned in the judgment following their resurrection from the grave.

[Jenda]

Fatboys, there is one difference that I believe the scriptures make that is not shown in the chart. I believe that those who need to be taught (those who died without the law) will go to the spirit prison and not Paradise. The spirit prison is for teaching. Those who did accept Christ in the prison will be resurrected in the resurrection of the just.

I think that that is essentially what your chart represents, but it shows those who died without the law going to Paradise, not the spirit prison, and having a chance in the resurrection of the just.

[pushka]

Thank you Amillia...does it also refer to the pre-existence in the bible? or, more specifically about the spirits who were reborn into bodies here on earth, about their degree of goodness? (sorry if that sounds garbled, im finding it difficult to express myself clearly here)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 14 2005, 12:53 PM

Thank you Amillia...does it also refer to the pre-existence in the bible? or, more specifically about the spirits who were reborn into bodies here on earth, about their degree of goodness? (sorry if that sounds garbled, im finding it difficult to express myself clearly here)

There is the counsel in heaven spoken of ~ councel of the gods. Let me see if I can come up with a reference for that.

Rev. 12

4 And his tail drew the athird• part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a arod• of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the awoman• fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was awar in heaven: bMichael and his cangels fought against the dragon; and the ddragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in aheaven.

9 And the great dragon was acast• out, that old serpent, called the bDevil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and bstrength, and the kingdom of our God, and the cpower of his Christ: for the daccuser• of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they aovercame• him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their btestimony; and they loved not their lives unto the cdeath.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he apersecuted• the woman which brought forth the man child.

Jer. 1

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I aformed• thee in the belly I bknew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I csanctified thee, and I dordained thee a prophet unto the enations•.

[Amillia]

Here is another: Jude

6 And the aangels which kept not their bfirst cestate•, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the djudgment of the great day.

[pushka]

Thanks again Amillia!!

[srm]

Why do you all bother to address this. Jeff drops in to ask a question then doesn't stick around to discuss it. It doesn't look like he is really searching for answers...or even discussion.

[Outshined]

Bear in mind that the chart is from a Catholic site's "apologetics" area, which is trying to "disprove" the LDS beliefs, so there will be some misrepresentation.

http://transporter.com/Apologia/mormon.htm

[pushka]

Thanks for the link Outshined...as a person born into and brought up as a Roman Catholic, who also followed the LDS church for 5 years, I will be very interested to see what's on that site :)