Conversion Story

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 14 2005, 09:20 AM

Randy, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that numbers, or whether or not the church is rich is a measuring stick for whether a church is considered the "true" church.

You must also be forgetting the scriptures that state that God's wrath will start in His own house first.

D&C 105:9a-10a RLDS (112:23-25 LDS)

9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

Dawn,

See, you saw what you wanted to see in my post! MY point was that as members of the LDS Church we do NOT believe the measure of success is found strictly in numbers nor in bank account statements. You missed the point completely.

My point is that "others" point to those two areas and say in effect..."the Church believes it's the true church because they are growing like crazy, because the members strive to pay a full tithe to assist in carrying the work foward, that because the Church has influence in the world it manipulates things to get want it wants...etc. As members we have heard it all...and then some. These are obviously indicators of many things however.

As I said, the true measure of success is to be found in the lives of the individual members! Questions that should be asked are...."are members of the LDS church striving to live a Christlike life? Do they strive to serve one another? Do they strive to be obedient and follow the Prophets and Apostles as the Lord has said?

The truth is found just the way it was found by that man who was the center of this dicussion. By prayer and fasting! He found it and it was confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost. Done deal. No need to look further. No need. Once it's found..it's found.

Dawn....we have discussed that scripture reference a gazillion times before.

I suppose then....since "your house" has been assailed by God's wrath since 1851 and continues to this day...one could paraphrase that scripture as saying " and upon my house shall it begin, and never cease, and from my house nothing will go forth because of contentions, and strifes, and confusion until I come to set the church in order".

How long is the RLDS church supposed to suffer this continued wrath....and what has it done as a church to deserve it since day one of the Reorganization?

Now...I say that because...and you know this to be true...that is EXACTLY what you and others on other boards have said that is what you believe will need to happen.

Ok, Dawn while I am finding my sources to show the Church was or was willing to assist Emma and her family financially and otherwise....

YOU show your evidence that BY was trying to steal her possessions.

Please dont show diary entries from 3rd parties about "danites this, or danites that". Show something credible.

randy

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 14 2005, 09:20 AM

Randy, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that numbers, or whether or not the church is rich is a measuring stick for whether a church is considered the "true" church.

You must also be forgetting the scriptures that state that God's wrath will start in His own house first.

D&C 105:9a-10a RLDS (112:23-25 LDS)

9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

Dawn,

I have to ask you though,

What would be the talk within Restorationist circles "if" there began to be a significant increase in convert baptisms and a significant increase in paying tithing in the Restoration branches? I mean really significant increases...what would ya'all be saying?

randy

[john doe]

I'm going to bow out of this discussion for a few days as I am going to SoCal on business, but I would like a reasonable answer to my points, Jenda.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Mar 14 2005, 04:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Mar 14 2005, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 14 2005, 09:20 AM

Randy, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that numbers, or whether or not the church is rich is a measuring stick for whether a church is considered the "true" church.

You must also be forgetting the scriptures that state that God's wrath will start in His own house first.

D&C 105:9a-10a RLDS (112:23-25 LDS)

9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

Dawn,

See, you saw what you wanted to see in my post! MY point was that as members of the LDS Church we do NOT believe the measure of success is found strictly in numbers nor in bank account statements. You missed the point completely.

My point is that "others" point to those two areas and say in effect..."the Church believes it's the true church because they are growing like crazy, because the members strive to pay a full tithe to assist in carrying the work foward, that because the Church has influence in the world it manipulates things to get want it wants...etc. As members we have heard it all...and then some. These are obviously indicators of many things however.

As I said, the true measure of success is to be found in the lives of the individual members! Questions that should be asked are...."are members of the LDS church striving to live a Christlike life? Do they strive to serve one another? Do they strive to be obedient and follow the Prophets and Apostles as the Lord has said?

The truth is found just the way it was found by that man who was the center of this dicussion. By prayer and fasting! He found it and it was confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost. Done deal. No need to look further. No need. Once it's found..it's found.

Dawn....we have discussed that scripture reference a gazillion times before.

I suppose then....since "your house" has been assailed by God's wrath since 1851 and continues to this day...one could paraphrase that scripture as saying " and upon my house shall it begin, and never cease, and from my house nothing will go forth because of contentions, and strifes, and confusion until I come to set the church in order".

How long is the RLDS church supposed to suffer this continued wrath....and what has it done as a church to deserve it since day one of the Reorganization?

Now...I say that because...and you know this to be true...that is EXACTLY what you and others on other boards have said that is what you believe will need to happen.

Ok, Dawn while I am finding my sources to show the Church was or was willing to assist Emma and her family financially and otherwise....

YOU show your evidence that BY was trying to steal her possessions.

Please dont show diary entries from 3rd parties about "danites this, or danites that". Show something credible.

randy

Randy, all I have to do is drag out my "Emma Smith: The Elect Lady", and copy it word for word. In fact, I think I will do just that.

And let me ask you what is wrong with "journal entries". Where do you think the truth hides out? Not in some show that BY put on in public, that's for sure. If we have to eliminate journal entries, then, Poof!, all the evidence that Joseph Smith participated in spiritual wivery is gone. Gone. Gone. Gone. You're sure you want to eliminate journal entries?

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 15 2005, 10:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 15 2005, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Mar 14 2005, 04:29 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 14 2005, 09:20 AM

Randy, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that numbers, or whether or not the church is rich is a measuring stick for whether a church is considered the "true" church.

You must also be forgetting the scriptures that state that God's wrath will start in His own house first.

D&C 105:9a-10a RLDS (112:23-25 LDS)

9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

Dawn,

See, you saw what you wanted to see in my post! MY point was that as members of the LDS Church we do NOT believe the measure of success is found strictly in numbers nor in bank account statements. You missed the point completely.

My point is that "others" point to those two areas and say in effect..."the Church believes it's the true church because they are growing like crazy, because the members strive to pay a full tithe to assist in carrying the work foward, that because the Church has influence in the world it manipulates things to get want it wants...etc. As members we have heard it all...and then some. These are obviously indicators of many things however.

As I said, the true measure of success is to be found in the lives of the individual members! Questions that should be asked are...."are members of the LDS church striving to live a Christlike life? Do they strive to serve one another? Do they strive to be obedient and follow the Prophets and Apostles as the Lord has said?

The truth is found just the way it was found by that man who was the center of this dicussion. By prayer and fasting! He found it and it was confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost. Done deal. No need to look further. No need. Once it's found..it's found.

Dawn....we have discussed that scripture reference a gazillion times before.

I suppose then....since "your house" has been assailed by God's wrath since 1851 and continues to this day...one could paraphrase that scripture as saying " and upon my house shall it begin, and never cease, and from my house nothing will go forth because of contentions, and strifes, and confusion until I come to set the church in order".

How long is the RLDS church supposed to suffer this continued wrath....and what has it done as a church to deserve it since day one of the Reorganization?

Now...I say that because...and you know this to be true...that is EXACTLY what you and others on other boards have said that is what you believe will need to happen.

Ok, Dawn while I am finding my sources to show the Church was or was willing to assist Emma and her family financially and otherwise....

YOU show your evidence that BY was trying to steal her possessions.

Please dont show diary entries from 3rd parties about "danites this, or danites that". Show something credible.

randy

Randy, all I have to do is drag out my "Emma Smith: The Elect Lady", and copy it word for word. In fact, I think I will do just that.

And let me ask you what is wrong with "journal entries". Where do you think the truth hides out? Not in some show that BY put on in public, that's for sure. If we have to eliminate journal entries, then, Poof!, all the evidence that Joseph Smith participated in spiritual wivery is gone. Gone. Gone. Gone. You're sure you want to eliminate journal entries?

Dawn,

Yes, by all means post your excerpts and references for same. thx.

I said journal entries about "danites this, and danites that". You seem to hide behind the notion that all bad originated with BY and was carried out by Danites. That seems to be your mindset on these types of issues.

But...I would love to see yours. If I can find my "Judge me Dear Reader" by Buddy Youngreen you might be suprised as well.

I would enjoy a response to my last post.

Also, riddle me this....with respect to the "institutional church" or the "individual branches" within the Restorationist movement...tell me, what are the "fruits" of faithful discipleship?

randy

[Jason]

I seem to recall a statement by BY that JS would have to go to hell if he wanted Emma for his wife.

As for the LDS blessings...If money and numbers mattered, the the Roman Catholics have us all beat!

(And the LDS only became wealthy in the last 50 years or so. Before that, they were on the verge of bankruptcy, even to the point the Heber J. Grant mortgaged the SLC temple to pay debts!)

[Jenda]

You all are right. I'm sorry I said anything and this thread turned into yet another 'You're wrong, I'm right' church history thread. I'm sorry I made the comment that the guy should have honored his parents (parents). Heaven forbid someone do the right thing.

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 15 2005, 09:49 PM

You all are right. I'm sorry I said anything and this thread turned into yet another 'You're wrong, I'm right' church history thread. I'm sorry I made the comment that the guy should have honored his parents (parents). Heaven forbid someone do the right thing.

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Dawn!!

What the heck?? Come on girl!!

Whoever said we shouldn't honor our parents?

The problem is that you infer that he did not simply because he did not investigate the Reorganization! Thats just not right. Sorry!

I mean come on....what if the situation were reversed and he had joined a Restoration branch...would you have counseled him to go and investigate the LDS church first, then come back and we'll talk? You know you would not have done that in a bazillion years!!

I would still like an answer to my other questions though...if you would.

randy

[Jenda]

I'm sorry Randy. I am tired and not feeling well. Could you restate your question?

Thanks.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 16 2005, 07:55 AM

I'm sorry Randy. I am tired and not feeling well. Could you restate your question?

Thanks.

Dawn,

I am sorry you are not feeling well! Thats a bummer!

I want to tell you how much I have enjoyed your friendship over these last 2-3 years! You have made me laugh, scream, wonder in amazement, scratch my bald head and say..."dang it, she's got a great point there".....and every other emotion known to mankind!

I think you are a wonderful and articulate woman...of much faith. I do admire you in many, many ways!

Just wanted you to know!

You let me know when you got yer batteries recharged and we will continue!

Take care...and may God bless and keep you! Get feeling better!!

your pain in butt friend,

randy