On my way out.

[Guest Godless]

Thanks, I find it interesting that your reply settled with me so sincerely. If I am reading correctly, you are not a man of faith, yet your answer speaks volumes about the faith that I need (and have lost). To be clear, you haven't given me a miraculous answer to life, the universe and everything (42 :}) but your perspective might be a little of what I needed.

It seems that those with faith have such a strong testimony of their faith, that they often forget (or never knew) how those without it see the world. Often, the "Here it is, Take it or leave it" approach is seen as very harsh and a bit uppity. I know that isn't the intent, and that their answers come from the heart, but it still feels cold in a way. I have never understood that either - Faith should, by definition, equal love and compassion. Understanding and a desire to help those that are lost, and yet for people like me it feels more like "dusting the sand from their feet" than "sitting down with the tax collectors"

My questions are not answered. I have a LOOOOOONG way to go, but I wanted to say thank you for your sensere response to someone that really needed a kind word and a road sign. Odd that it should come from the Athiest, but then again, God works in mysterious ways.

I'm glad that I could have been of some help. One final note. You've made it clear that you're looking for answers to what life is all about (or supposed to be about), what our place is in the universe, and how, if at all, religion fits into it. I'll let you in on a little secret. These answers are almost always subjective and vary from one individual to the next. My personal philosophy is that life is what you make it and it only has as much meaning as you give it. I am able to find plenty of meaning and purpose in life in the absence of belief in God and and afterlife. Many people wouldn't be able to do the same. For them, their religious beliefs are a crucial factor in determining why they're here and what's in store for them in the future. As for myself, I don't care why I'm here. I just know that I am. This answer may not be good enough for you. To be fair, it's not good enough for most of the world's population, which is why we have religion in the first place. As I said before, the best thing for you to do is to sort out your beliefs and form your own ideas about the world you live in and your place in it. You may find that you are able to define yourself without faith. It's also just as likely that you may find a place for faith in your worldview. Just try to keep an open mind and follow your instincts. Don't settle for something that doesn't feel right to you.

[blusun7]

i maybe too late but ihave been in your shoes.I apostate and it sucks. I ll tell you why?

You may leave the church but you will never forget the church. Why?I figured it out. It is cause we have been confirmed the gift of the holy ghost. Every now and then you will remember things of the church when you visit with other churches. I have visited some. Nothing is wrong with them except you begin to see things that you where taught and how it really does seperate other churches not just with prophets but also Christ teachings.

IM ignorant in my ways and i dont live a perfect lds live but i have made some poor decisions cause i was on the way out and i figured i know more than the lord or that i have to seperate myself from him and his teachings because i have to find myself.Well i have learned that is selfishness because Christ says we have to loose ourselves in him.That means we must accept him totally.

I have learned it the hard way.I didnt serve a mission and my current state does not allow me to go to the temple and i dont feel worthy of going to church.I am in a pickle cause of sin.I blame it on myself.

I have read many anti literature but you know what alot of it was political. The stones you talk about are real.They are even in the bible talk about. Everything you doubt can be found in the Bible or book of mormon.Mormon anti-literature is purely written by satan.The events happened but there is not real account one must guess. That is a fact!!!!

I have learned that there is a Church in the bible and if you read its structure you would begin to see many truths that you are denying as i have. Then you begin to gain a testimony yourself.

I feel that cause you learned of the back round of mormonism you think that it was hidden.It is not but it plays no key to your salvation or churches role. im in and have been in your shoes. YOU will be happy but its not the happiness you would imagine. YOu are doing more damage than good and i tell you this from an apostate.I am and im trying to change that. im embracing it and making difficult changes. I did it my way and i suffered. Dont make that mistake i have?

the on my way out opens a whole gate of sin inside.

"All the water in the world, no matter how hard it tried, could not sink a ship until it got inside,"

"All the evil in the world and every kind of sin,could never damn a human soul. Until we let it in"

Dont let it in.It will damage you as it has damaged me.As a member who wishes to be sin free and go back in the church and marry a woman who will love me for who i m spiritual and physically. Please you are about to make a mistake.Read the teachings in the bible and the book of mormon and other books.They have answers as well as lds.org. Put the topic in the search engine and get information from the first source.All other information is strained and filled?

If you are so keen on finding truths do this?

Read the bible only. Right down the structure of his church and its ordinances and every other key thing you find. Then take a look at religions and you will see for yourself that there is not church like the lds in structure and believe. Period. And many churches have taken our ideas in church structure and applied it to there church. I have seen it many times. Dont forget to pay the preacher who gets payed ok. (not all do i know)

Ohh and if you dont like the way things are in church.Why dont pray and have faith that you may worthy to recieve a calling.Maybe he will give you one that may help change the people in the church.

i have been to many wards that the bishop does need to tell the ward to accept all who come in and not be so distant towards return members no matter what they have or haven't done. i have been in your shoes.

Im an apostate myself. Thats my .02 cents.

[lilered]

Interesting perspective on some of my problems.

I am a convert to the church but my wife is not. Her ex-husband was also a member and they were sealed in the temple. Later on in their marriage he became abusive and their civil marriage ended in divorce. He is now inactive, spiteful and extremely selfish. He has stated that he doesn't want the temple marriage dissolved and we haven't been able to work that one out with the authorities. So... Perhaps every time I hear about the temple it makes me sick on some level because of this.

It would appear from reading the above, that her ex-husbands behavior is affecting your beliefs, instead of your own spirit, knowledge, and study.

However that's not the only thing. Sometimes I hear something from an outsider about Joseph Smith treasure hunting, or the mountain meadows massacre, or the black guy that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to before they weren't allowed to have the priesthood and my immediate reaction is "That's not true, why are you making up lies?" Then I will do research and find out that even though the church refutes the spin that the anti crown puts on these things, a great many of them are true, and they are never talked about.

For the sake of discussion lets say that everything negative about the church that has ever been written is true, does that still change the fact that God loves us, and has provided a plan for us to return to him. That his plan is based on the family at the center and that Jesus Christ is our savior. That the Book of Mormon is another witness to the Bible and contains further knowlege for us to grow while here on earth.

My point is that the bottom line is going to be Do you believe in God, his son Jesus Christ is your personal savior, and that you will be held accoutable for your actions during your time here on earth. If so, then why be distracted by things that really are not that signifigant to your eternal life?

One isolated issue isn't a huge problem for me, but lots of them are. Someone posted (here or topix, can't remember) that the church doesn't focus on the past but only on the present and future. I for one happen to hold the Bible as not only scripture, but as historical text. It tells us things that happened in the past, warns us about reacting in the wrong way, and teaches us a different way of doing things.

We learn about things that our spiritual leaders and prophet's have done wrong. Abraham not taking God's word about a son and trying to find another way himself, Christ saying if there was any way to take the cup from Him, The denial of Christ after his arrest, etc... There are no positive spins on the information, there are just facts and proof that God's plan is the right plan. Every dispensation covered under the scriptures shows Truth and Error openly... Yet under this dispensation the church doesn't do it.

I am not sure I agree with you. The church under this dispensation and particularily under the leadership of Gordon B. Hinkley, has been very forthrifht about such matters, IMHO.

I absolutely despise that fact. If we don't know our past then we are doomed to repeat it. If the churches take on the mountain meadows massacre is correct then it wasn't the leadership that was at fault, it was some of the membership... and yet the membership at large is never taught about this tragedy and the lessons that were learned from it. Sure many know it happend, but not everyone... It's a part of church history that isn't taught.

I think one point that you may not yet realize is that the Church is more concerned about the positive aspects of preaching the word of God to Billions of people living upon the earth and performing the work of the dead, than the minor reactions that ocurr because of the negative that is written by a few. History has shown that the growth of the church continues onward when the "less said the better" principle is used. Otherwise the Church would always be in a defensive poster on every item brought up.

When you put all of this together, my perceptions that have been built from personal experience, coupled with what I call "political history" then yes... my faith in the church itself is shaken. I know the argument that if Joseph Smith is a prophet then the rest must be true. Now I am faced with the exact oppisite argument though... If all of this stuff is wrong then how could Joseph Smith have been a prophet and how could the Church be led by Christ? Even if you remove my personal perceptions from the argument (which is hard for me to do since they are MY perceptions) you are still left with some things that just don't make sence to me.

It seems to me that you should be seeking to understand what you core beleifs really are. Do you beleive in God?, Do you believe in Christs atonment and sacrifice, Do you believe that God speaks thru Prophets today? Etc. If so, then why is it so hard to accept that Joseph Smith while being a Prophet, was still a man, therefore fully capable of being tempted by the devil at times, make mistakes at times, and yet was no different that many of Biblicial Prophets. A great example was Moses, look what a great and wonderful Prophet of God he was, and yet because of his mistake, he was not allowed to set foot in Israel before he died. There are many more similar stories.

Comments in red:

I do hope you firnd the answers you are seeking.