Terri Shiavo

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 29 2005, 06:51 PM

Yes you did. You said that Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife. That is a lie. That other people are also lying does not excuse you.

WHO is falsifying facts?

That would be you Strawberry. I know you are trying to imply that it is me but I challenge you to find even one thing that I said that is not factually true.

I'll wait.

Snow,

Please stop with the childish finger pointing here, we are both adults.

I DO believe that Michael is trying to hide something and whether it is attempted homicide or abuse is still to be determined. What he is currently trying to do (in my book) is legalized murder and I stand by that adamantly. Snow have you read the links that I have posted.... The fact that others also believe that Michael is trying to cover his tracks is also all over the news.

Are you telling me that the people who have written these various articles are the people who are also lying? Okay so you call me a liar so what. Just because you say this does not make it so.

Now about the falsifying facts¡Ä You don't know me well enough if you believe that I am implying that to be you. What I DID say is "You are just simply choosing to view only statements which support your views, the rest you call propaganda."

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 11:09 AM

Snow,

I did do the google search and typed this "Terri Shiavo received rehab¡É

This was the first link...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...03/306hhsrh.asp

I am respectably asking for the 4th time for YOU to SHOW ME where she received nearly four years of rehab.

I think that the above link tells the story in clear terms, of what has happened to the money allocated for Terri's rehab.

Snow,

I am still waiting.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 29 2005, 05:44 PM

Yes you did. You said that Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife. That is a lie.

Isn't "lie" a bit strong here? I think it's very unlikely that Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife, and apparently the Florida authorities think so, too, but is it so conclusively established that an opinion to the contrary must be a "lie" as opposed to a misguided opinion? (Even when someone -- can't remember who -- spouted some nonsense about how the World Trade Center was supposedly demolished on purpose by the eviil GW so he could start a war for oil, I didn't call him/her a liar. A freakin' moron with no common sense or understanding of physics, maybe, but not a liar.)

How common is it, anyway, for bulimics (as opposed to anorexics) to have potassium imbalances so severe that they go into cardiac arrest? I'm probably revealing my ignorance of eating disorders here, but my understanding is that anorexia is far more dangerous than bulimia as far as getting your minerals out of whack and getting malnourished. Terri's sudden collapse is unusual enough that I'm not surprised some people are going "hm."

I used the word purposely because the poster purposely said something that is untrue and knew it was untrue or at the very least should have reasonably known that it was untrue - would would make it lie by derivation rather than explictly so but a lie nevertheless

Like if I said that Condeleeza Rice wants to have my baby, it could be that I am explicitly lying or, as you say, a freak'n moron who really believes that Secretary of State yearns for a Snow Jr. in diapers but either way I know or should reasonably know that it is false While it is possible, remotely possible, Condi has lurked on LDSTalk and really grooves on me, just as I suppose Michael Schiavo could have conspired with Ted Bundy to murder Terri, the idea is so far-fetched, that unless I or the poster for that matter were clinically foo-foo brained, dishonesty is an appropriate and reasonable characterization.

...and patients whose cardiac arrest is supposed to have been due to a potassium imbalance which was speculated to have been from an eating disorder may (or may not) be rare but it is so far from murder that it's apt to call it dishonest. My grandfather spoke in Church and upon sitting back down, dropped his head to his chest and died. Dying in Church after speaking is rare but that doesn't make calling it murder honest.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Mar 29 2005, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Mar 29 2005, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 11:09 AM

Snow,

I did do the google search and typed this "Terri Shiavo received rehab¡É

This was the first link...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...03/306hhsrh.asp

I am respectably asking for the 4th time for YOU to SHOW ME where she received nearly four years of rehab.

I think that the above link tells the story in clear terms, of what has happened to the money allocated for Terri's rehab.

Snow,

I am still waiting.

Strawberry,

It's common knowledge that she received agressive speech and occupation therapy as well as experimental brain therapy and stimulator implant. I needn't prove anything. Anyone following Terri's case would/should know it. I have seen it on the national news twice, read it in the paper and reviewed it various places on the net.

Do your own homework if you really aren't familiar with the basics of the case. I just checked it and it took less than 20 seconds. Besides, if yoiu would read the articles you posted you would know it.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 29 2005, 10:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 29 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Mar 29 2005, 05:44 PM

Yes you did. You said that Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife. That is a lie.

Isn't "lie" a bit strong here? I think it's very unlikely that Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife, and apparently the Florida authorities think so, too, but is it so conclusively established that an opinion to the contrary must be a "lie" as opposed to a misguided opinion? (Even when someone -- can't remember who -- spouted some nonsense about how the World Trade Center was supposedly demolished on purpose by the eviil GW so he could start a war for oil, I didn't call him/her a liar. A freakin' moron with no common sense or understanding of physics, maybe, but not a liar.)

How common is it, anyway, for bulimics (as opposed to anorexics) to have potassium imbalances so severe that they go into cardiac arrest? I'm probably revealing my ignorance of eating disorders here, but my understanding is that anorexia is far more dangerous than bulimia as far as getting your minerals out of whack and getting malnourished. Terri's sudden collapse is unusual enough that I'm not surprised some people are going "hm."

I used the word purposely because the poster purposely said something that is untrue and knew it was untrue or at the very least should have reasonably known that it was untrue - would would make it lie by derivation rather than explictly so but a lie nevertheless

Like if I said that Condeleeza Rice wants to have my baby, it could be that I am explicitly lying or, as you say, a freak'n moron who really believes that Secretary of State yearns for a Snow Jr. in diapers but either way I know or should reasonably know that it is false While it is possible, remotely possible, Condi has lurked on LDSTalk and really grooves on me, just as I suppose Michael Schiavo could have conspired with Ted Bundy to murder Terri, the idea is so far-fetched, that unless I or the poster for that matter were clinically foo-foo brained, dishonesty is an appropriate and reasonable characterization.

...and patients whose cardiac arrest is supposed to have been due to a potassium imbalance which was speculated to have been from an eating disorder may (or may not) be rare but it is so far from murder that it's apt to call it dishonest. My grandfather spoke in Church and upon sitting back down, dropped his head to his chest and died. Dying in Church after speaking is rare but that doesn't make calling it murder honest.

The Poster?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 08:29 PM

Are you telling me that the people who have written these various articles are the people who are also lying? Okay so you call me a liar so what. Just because you say this does not make it so.

Your right, it is your fabrication of facts, not me, that makes it dishonest.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 08:55 PM

The Poster?

I couldn't recall if it was you or another poster that I was referencing. There was another guy that fabricated facts in this thread.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 29 2005, 10:55 PM

It's common knowledge that she received agressive speech and occupation therapy as well as experimental brain therapy and stimulator implant. I needn't prove anything. Anyone following Terri's case would/should know it. I have seen it on the national news twice, read it in the paper and reviewed it various places on the net.

Do your own homework if you really aren't familiar with the basics of the case. I just checked it and it took less than 20 seconds.

Not common knowledge at all and this could even be considered as misguided information. I have done as you asked and looked this up and what I got was information proving just the opposite. You have made several statements sighting that she has received extensive rehab so just where did you get this information...surely you can produce something this incredible.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 29 2005, 11:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 29 2005, 11:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 08:55 PM

The Poster?

I couldn't recall if it was you or another poster that I was referencing. There was another guy that fabricated facts in this thread.

Oh Okay.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 29 2005, 10:41 AM

I've gone back and forth on this, but I've come down to this: No matter whether the law's procedures have been followed, as they apparently have been, it seems unjust to me that the people who care most about Terri -- her parents -- have to watch her nominal husband, whose new common-law wife and children have replaced Terri as the primary objects of his affection, bring about her death. To the extent the law demands this, the law is an as.s.

Maybe Mr. Schiavo and his relatives are telling the truth that Terri once remarked that she wouldn't want to be kept alive after suffering an (unspecified) brain injury. The law allows evidence like their recollections in this context because there's really nothing else to go on. But there's a reason that the law generally prohibits hearsay evidence -- hearsay statements are too easy to fabricate, or to be inaccurate recollections of statements the original speaker can't clarify. Accordingly, I'm less inclined to take Judge Greer's findings of facts as gospel truth. Given the conflicts in the evidence, and the alignment of Mr. Schiavo's interests, a coin flip would have been just as likely to result in the finding reflecting the truth as the Schiavo legal proceedings had.

It strikes me as absurd that as grave a decision as whether a person -- even an incapacitated person -- lives or dies should be made on such a rickety evidentiary basis -- a few hearsay declarations about the declarants' recollections of casual comments by Terri. Why, in fact, should those casual comments be conclusive evidence of a person's true wishes? Were the made after any significant consideration?

You keep coming back to this. Let me make the case by talking about ME.

I got married. My wife and I are one flesh. If such an fate were to befall me, my wife, my other/better half speaks for me. She knows what my thoughts are about feeding tubes and life support, not just because I have explicity told her so on more than one occasion, but because she and I know each other and know each other's thoughts. I love my mommy dearly but she doesn't speak for me. Not only would my wife speak for me because she my spouse but because, in that state, she would become my legal guardian. Anyone messing with her decisions would not be welcome.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 29 2005, 10:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 29 2005, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 29 2005, 08:29 PM

Are you telling me that the people who have written these various articles are the people who are also lying? Okay so you call me a liar so what. Just because you say this does not make it so.

Your right, it is your fabrication of facts, not me, that makes it dishonest.

Thanks for making me smile.

[StrawberryFields]

Mega, Mega, Link to Terri's case.

http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schin...links-page.html

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Amillia@Mar 23 2005, 10:43 PM

BTW Terri isn't being starved to death. They say she will die from dehydration way before she will die from mal nutrition or starving. She doesn't feel starved, because she doesn't feel. She doesn't feel hungry, because she doesn't feel. She doesn't feel thirsty, because she doesn't feel anything.

She doesn't even know she is being refused food and water.

I just started reading this thread tonight, and I really hadn't planned on even reading it (to begin with) because there is enough in this world to keep me down and depressed without fanning the fire. But, things happen, and here I am reading it....until this comment made me sit up and choke.... not that there was any intent to make me choke, but just the mear thought of having someone tell me if I could feel pain, or hunger, or sadness.

I'm sure that everyone has seen a show, or read a book ( or experienced it first hand) about the person laying on the hospital bed with tubes up everywhere, and seeing and hearing everything going on, without the ability to speak, respond, or communicate in any way at all. The total helplessness of knowing that you are alive, and you are thinking.....and listening to someone tell everyone you are not. Screaming inside, with no one to hear you, crying inside and no one to understand your pain. I know that there are some who will just tell me.....that's just sci-fi....not reality. I say....what if?

Funny, I remember saying the exact same thing to someone during an agrument (debate) about religion, and how wrong I was for what I believed. "what if" what I believe is wrong? Ok, but what if what I believe is true? WHAT IF?

I know a lot of people tell their spouses, or loved ones..... "just let me die" if they are ever to the point of needing a machine to keep them alive. But I don't know how many of those same people meant "let me starve or dehydrate until I die" I can't fathom it.

I'm not trying to start another agrument....just stating my mind and I'm out of it. WHAT IF?

SF...you are a fantastic mother who will fight the cause for what you believe in, and with all the research you have done on various things...you will help change things for the betterment of a lot of people. I am proud of you and your determination.

( I really wanted to use "kick *** and take names" attitude....but determination was more board worthy

[Idacat]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Mar 29 2005, 11:45 PM

this comment made me sit up and choke.... not that there was any intent to make me choke, but just the mear thought of having someone tell me if I could feel pain, or hunger, or sadness.

I think it wise to remember that Terri lacks the "hardware" to feel pain, hunger, thirst or anything else. Her cerebral cortex is essentially gone, and long ago replaced with liquid....cerebrospinal fluid.

Terri is like your computer.....without a hard drive. The person is gone, the body lives on.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Idacat@Mar 30 2005, 12:01 AM

I think it wise to remember that Terri lacks the "hardware" to feel pain, hunger, thirst or anything else. Her cerebral cortex is essentially gone, and long ago replaced with liquid....cerebrospinal fluid.

Terri is like your computer.....without a hard drive. The person is gone, the body lives on.

Now that was insensitivity at its best.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 12:09 AM

Now that was insensitivity at its best.

No, it isn't insensitive, it's the sad and objective truth.

For me, this, and not the character assassination of Michael Schiavo at the hands of the right wing political machine, has been the deciding factor.

She is already gone, now, let her go in peace. I see this as compassion and not insensitivity.

If you doubt her cerebral cortex is gone, find the CT scan on the internet and you can see that it is. Gone. Entirely. This is not reversable, and in the beginning Terri's husband actually did see to it that every possible therapy was tried. We are not talking about someone with "brain damage", or cerbral cortical damage which can sometimes resolve as other parts of the cortex take over for the damaged parts. We are talking about someone whose cerebral cortex was deprived of oxygen long enough to die and has since atrophied and/or been resorbed, the empty space being filled naturally with cerebral spinal fluid.

I don't know what it is about this case that makes people so bound and determined to grasp after every libelous slanderous straw to virtually pillory Michael Schiavo, when Terri's medical history and a timeline of events is also out there for anyone who actually cares to find and read.

[StrawberryFields]

Idacat,

If I remember right you are a scientist?

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 12:40 AM

Idacat,

If I remember right you are a scientist?

Yes.

Is this why I don't place the deposition of Michael's ex girlfriend and the affadavit of a fired nurse higher on the tree of evidence than the CT scans of Terri's head and the timeline of what treatment(s) Terri received and where?

Not to mention the fact that both the deposition and the affadavit, the source of much, if not most, of the vicious gossip about Michael Schiavo were thrown out of court as having no merit several times by a Southern Baptist judge who has now been asked to leave his congregation for having the utter gall to place the word of law above his own personal religious beliefs.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Idacat+Mar 30 2005, 12:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Mar 30 2005, 12:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 12:40 AM

Idacat,

If I remember right you are a scientist?

Yes.

Is this why I don't place the deposition of Michael's ex girlfriend and the affadavit of a fired nurse higher on the tree of evidence than the CT scans of Terri's head and the timeline of what treatment(s) Terri received and where?

IF all of this proves to be true, then why did Michael refuse to have any more testing or even an MRI done? The previous question to the best of you ability of course.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Idacat+Mar 30 2005, 12:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Mar 30 2005, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 12:09 AM

Now that was insensitivity at its best.

No, it isn't insensitive, it's the sad and objective truth.

She is already gone, now, let her go in peace. I see this as compassion and not insensitivity.

I have been told that when a person dies in a way such as Terri the brain is the last thing to go because it is the control center of us. Do you believe this to be true?

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 01:02 AM

I have been told that when a person dies in a way such as Terri the brain is the last thing to go because it is the control center of us. Do you believe this to be true?

I can answer this easily............not in Terri's case. Unless you are talking about her brain stem or lower brain, then it is true, but she still has no pain or awareness whatsoever.

We are all used to hearing about people who are "brain dead" and must be placed on ventilators because they are unable to breathe on their own. These people have damage to the lower brain, or the brain stem, the part of the brain that controls breathing and other automatic functions. This part of Terri's brain is still there and functioning, but her cerebral cortex, the "higher brain" is the part that was destroyed by lack of oxygen and is, quite literally, gone, along with all the things that make you, and I, and Terri, human and alive.

I think further brain scans, such as MRI and PET were not pursued because they'd be pointless; the CT shows empty space where the cortex should be, there is no liklihood that an MRI would show brain mass in the space that the CT showed as empty. And PET scans measure cortical activity. No cerebral cortex, no cortical activity.

FWIW, it seems at this point, in my mind, to have been some huge and awful cosmic dirty trick that left Terri as she is today, when, had it only been a different part of her brain starved for oxygen first, or if she had not received first aid as quickly as she did, her brain stem, lower brain, would have been affected, she would not have been able to be revived, nor would she have had to languish in this ghastly state between life and death for all these years.

[StrawberryFields]

It's late and I am off to bed.

Here is some information about Terri's BONESCAN http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog...blogs_co_1.html

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Idacat+Mar 30 2005, 01:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Mar 30 2005, 01:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Mar 30 2005, 01:02 AM

I have been told that when a person dies in a way such as Terri the brain is the last thing to go because it is the control center of us. Do you believe this to be true?

I can answer this easily............not in Terri's case. Unless you are talking about her brain stem or lower brain, then it is true, but she still has no pain or awareness whatsoever.

No pain? Why else would they be giving her morphine?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 29 2005, 10:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 29 2005, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Mar 29 2005, 10:41 AM

I've gone back and forth on this, but I've come down to this:  No matter whether the law's procedures have been followed, as they apparently have been, it seems unjust to me that the people who care most about Terri -- her parents -- have to watch her nominal husband, whose new common-law wife and children have replaced Terri as the primary objects of his affection, bring about her death.  To the extent the law demands this, the law is an as.s.

Maybe Mr. Schiavo and his relatives are telling the truth that Terri once remarked that she wouldn't want to be kept alive after suffering an (unspecified) brain injury.  The law allows evidence like their recollections in this context because there's really nothing else to go on.  But there's a reason that the law generally prohibits hearsay evidence -- hearsay statements are too easy to fabricate, or to be inaccurate recollections of statements the original speaker can't clarify.  Accordingly, I'm less inclined to take Judge Greer's findings of facts as gospel truth.  Given the conflicts in the evidence, and the alignment of Mr. Schiavo's interests, a coin flip would have been just as likely to result in the finding reflecting the truth as the Schiavo legal proceedings had. 

It strikes me as absurd that as grave a decision as whether a person -- even an incapacitated person -- lives or dies should be made on such a rickety evidentiary basis -- a few hearsay declarations about the declarants' recollections of casual comments by Terri.  Why, in fact, should those casual comments be conclusive evidence of a person's true wishes?  Were the made after any significant consideration?

You keep coming back to this. Let me make the case by talking about ME.

I got married. My wife and I are one flesh. If such an fate were to befall me, my wife, my other/better half speaks for me. She knows what my thoughts are about feeding tubes and life support, not just because I have explicity told her so on more than one occasion, but because she and I know each other and know each other's thoughts. I love my mommy dearly but she doesn't speak for me. Not only would my wife speak for me because she my spouse but because, in that state, she would become my legal guardian. Anyone messing with her decisions would not be welcome.

I submit that if Michael Schiavo is "one flesh" with anyone, it's with his new wife-in-all-but-name. Some have said that th anti-tube-pullers are hypocrites for supposedly abandoning their respect for the "sanctity of marriage" in this case. I don't see much "sanctity" in Schiavo's starting a new family while still being married, although under the circumstances how he has acted is certainly human and understandable.

If Terri Schiavo is a shell, Michael Schiavo's marriage to her is even more of a shell. It's a legal fiction that has only its form remaining; all the substance of his marriage has been transferred to a new companion. The law does not always recognize legal fictions when the substance is different -- for example, the doctrine of alter ego allows the corporate form to be disregarded, and the principals of the corporation sued personally, when the corporation is a mere shell being run for the personal benefit of the principals. I think Michael Schiavo's marriage presents an analogous case for disregarding the form in favor of the substance.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Mar 29 2005, 08:03 PM

Bulemics get some nutrition however. Their stomach does absorb a little bit when it hits their stomach and not everything comes out. Anorexics barely put anything in.

That's what I thought (based on information from my very medically informed wife). Terri's weight didn't seem particularly low for her height.