Sealings?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 30 2005, 07:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 30 2005, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 30 2005, 02:29 PM

Everyone of the first apostles and JS taught that there would be progression from one kingdom to the next....but it would be according to their desire to do so...

I've never heard of this, but I'd be interested in seeing some quotes. Do you have any?

Sure....Here are two....I haven't a lot of time today....but there are lots of them in the JoDs....by severl different speakers...

I will start with this from the author of my reference book " ...criticism implies that there may be little in the signs and token which contribute anyting worthwhile in the modern endowment experience.Unfortunately, these evaluations may be all too ture, because the majority of late -twentieth century Latter-day Saints, most of whom live in a technological society submersed in rational humanism, possiblymay view the signs and tokens as having only the most superficial impact on their religious lives, yet alone intheir daily secular pursites....

This was not, however, the perspective of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, who viewed the signs and tokens not only as the focus of the temple endowment, but also as vital to their lives as endowed Mormons. So important were the signs and tokens to Joseph Smith and the twelve Apostles that they called them the keys of the priesthood. Hoseph Smith stated that the 'keys are certain signs and wores.'...Heber C. Kimball also stated that the 'signs and tokens....are the keys of the Priesthood.' Bringhamd Young described the ritual context in which the keys of the priesthood are couched:

Then go on and build the Temples of the Lord, that you may receive the endowments in store for you and possess the keys of the eternal Priesthood, that you may receive every word, sign, and token, and be made acquainted with the laws of angels, and the kingdom of our Father and our God, <span style='color:red'>and know how to pass from one degree to another, and enter fully into the joy of the Lord." Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (SLC facsimile edition, 1967), 2:315.

"Finally, Joseph Smith explained there was a further extension of the authenticating aspects of the tokens. He said it was necessary to have received certain keys in order to pass by the angels into celestial glory." Ehat and Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, p. 108.

"Such doctrine was also the teaching of his associates. Brigham Young stated on numerous occasions that there were sentinels or porters which guarded the way to the celestial kingdom and to whom persons will have to prove their knowledge of key-words, signs and tokens before goaining admittance." Journal of Discurses, 2:31, 315; 5:331-332; 6:63; 7:289; 8:224; 10:172; 12:163. In some of these sources BY claimed that one of the sentinels would be Joseph Smith, as wee as other prophets, such as Peter, Abraham, Jesus and at length Adam....See also Orson Hydes's statement in IBID., 6:154-155.

"He stated that we would be tested as we "are conducted along from this probation to other probations's, or from one dispensation to another dispensation by those who conducted those dispensations." Journal of Discourses, 6:63

"A recent priesthood studymanuel echoes Brigham Young's sentiments, "We will be judged as we pass from one stage of existence to the next---evaluations of our progress at each step along the way." Put on the Strength O Zion: 1985 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide (SLC: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1984, p. 154.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 31 2005, 11:41 AM

I would still like to see a reference that Eternity is 5 Billion Years. If so, that is not Eternity. It also means that if you get sealed to your family for Eternity, it will end in 5 Billion years. So in the END, we will be separated from them, despite being sealed in the Temple in this life?

For the record, in my opinion, an Eternity is outside of time, and therefore the afterlife is not really "after" anything.

Or if I am LDS, my interpretation is that we live in a circular timline that goes back to the first god (Elohim's first Heavenly Ancestor)...that is, eventually a future god will create Elohim and it all starts over.

But that would sort of invalidate the "Pyramid Scheme" aspect of God's plan...because if Elohim just created billions of potential gods (humans)...and each of those that is exalted creates millions more, then eventually there will be unlimited gods...and which one would create Elohim in a circular timeline? Unless Elohim's children are not equal to him, and only one of his children becomes a "Heavenly Father"...perhaps Jesus. Then it could work.

I will have to do some extensive searching on this one....and I don't have time....but I know it is in one of many books....like JoD...or Joseph Smith's early writings...or journals...or early apostles....writtings....there is just so much I would have to go back through...

I did extensive studying about 15 years ago....and came across it... but I can't remember where....I also came across BY teaching that other church had the Aaronic priesthood already....

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Mar 30 2005, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Mar 30 2005, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Mar 30 2005, 07:05 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Mar 30 2005, 02:29 PM

Everyone of the first apostles and JS taught that there would be progression from one kingdom to the next....but it would be according to their desire to do so...

I've never heard of this, but I'd be interested in seeing some quotes. Do you have any?

Amillia,

I will have to say that I also strongly disagree with the notion of progressing from "kingdom to kingdom". That is a false doctrine, even if BRM agrees! LOL!

In my Gospel Essentials class I was teaching on this very thing last sunday. The manual, and everything I have ever read teaches us that the body we are resurrected with, will determine the glory we shall inherit. We do NOT know however, if there is progression "within" kingdoms of glory, but my understanding has always been that there is NO progression from Kingdom TO kingdom.

In the spirit prison we know that the spirits there can "progress". They are in a different situation...they have not yet been resurrected...so there is time there for them to progress to the extent they can.

randy

Well I believe that God is not going to torture us in Hell for eternity either. I believe that those who have glory will be given the chance to increase and progress. If their desires are to continue to progress they will progress. But there will be those who are happy where they are at. There will also be those that were negative in this life and in the next continue to be negative to the point of losing glory and digress.

The atonement is infinite. It will continue for all, during all times. The Hell comes when we lose our connection with loved ones, as they progress at a different level, us never being able to catch them. Hell is coming face to face to what you could have been and had.

Eternity is a measurement of time. D&C 76:4

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Amillia+Mar 31 2005, 02:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Mar 31 2005, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Mar 31 2005, 11:41 AM

I would still like to see a reference that Eternity is 5 Billion Years.  If so, that is not Eternity.  It also means that if you get sealed to your family for Eternity, it will end in 5 Billion years.  So in the END, we will be separated from them, despite being sealed in the Temple in this life?

For the record, in my opinion, an Eternity is outside of time, and therefore the afterlife is not really "after" anything.

Or if I am LDS, my interpretation is that we live in a circular timline that goes back to the first god (Elohim's first Heavenly Ancestor)...that is, eventually a future god will create Elohim and it all starts over.

But that would sort of invalidate the "Pyramid Scheme" aspect of God's plan...because if Elohim just created billions of potential gods (humans)...and each of those that is exalted creates millions more, then eventually there will be unlimited gods...and which one would create Elohim in a circular timeline?  Unless Elohim's children are not equal to him, and only one of his children becomes a "Heavenly Father"...perhaps Jesus.  Then it could work.

I will have to do some extensive searching on this one....and I don't have time....but I know it is in one of many books....like JoD...or Joseph Smith's early writings...or journals...or early apostles....writtings....there is just so much I would have to go back through...

I did extensive studying about 15 years ago....and came across it... but I can't remember where....I also came across BY teaching that other church had the Aaronic priesthood already....

Good Sister,

I read and re-read your quotes. I am sorry...they do not speak of progressing from one Kingdom of glory to the next.

A careful study of D&C 76 and 131 teaches this clearly.

Again, it has not been revealed if a person can progress "within" a Kingdom of Glory...IMO..we can. But the Scriptures are clear on the fact that there is no progression from Kingdom to Kingdom.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Apr 1 2005, 08:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Apr 1 2005, 08:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Mar 31 2005, 02:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Mar 31 2005, 11:41 AM

I would still like to see a reference that Eternity is 5 Billion Years.  If so, that is not Eternity.  It also means that if you get sealed to your family for Eternity, it will end in 5 Billion years.  So in the END, we will be separated from them, despite being sealed in the Temple in this life?

For the record, in my opinion, an Eternity is outside of time, and therefore the afterlife is not really "after" anything.

Or if I am LDS, my interpretation is that we live in a circular timline that goes back to the first god (Elohim's first Heavenly Ancestor)...that is, eventually a future god will create Elohim and it all starts over.

But that would sort of invalidate the "Pyramid Scheme" aspect of God's plan...because if Elohim just created billions of potential gods (humans)...and each of those that is exalted creates millions more, then eventually there will be unlimited gods...and which one would create Elohim in a circular timeline?  Unless Elohim's children are not equal to him, and only one of his children becomes a "Heavenly Father"...perhaps Jesus.  Then it could work.

I will have to do some extensive searching on this one....and I don't have time....but I know it is in one of many books....like JoD...or Joseph Smith's early writings...or journals...or early apostles....writtings....there is just so much I would have to go back through...

I did extensive studying about 15 years ago....and came across it... but I can't remember where....I also came across BY teaching that other church had the Aaronic priesthood already....

Good Sister,

I read and re-read your quotes. I am sorry...they do not speak of progressing from one Kingdom of glory to the next.

A careful study of D&C 76 and 131 teaches this clearly.

Again, it has not been revealed if a person can progress "within" a Kingdom of Glory...IMO..we can. But the Scriptures are clear on the fact that there is no progression from Kingdom to Kingdom.

I guess there are those who disagree, and we are they.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 08:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Apr 1 2005, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Mar 31 2005, 02:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Mar 31 2005, 11:41 AM

I would still like to see a reference that Eternity is 5 Billion Years.  If so, that is not Eternity.  It also means that if you get sealed to your family for Eternity, it will end in 5 Billion years.  So in the END, we will be separated from them, despite being sealed in the Temple in this life?

For the record, in my opinion, an Eternity is outside of time, and therefore the afterlife is not really "after" anything.

Or if I am LDS, my interpretation is that we live in a circular timline that goes back to the first god (Elohim's first Heavenly Ancestor)...that is, eventually a future god will create Elohim and it all starts over.

But that would sort of invalidate the "Pyramid Scheme" aspect of God's plan...because if Elohim just created billions of potential gods (humans)...and each of those that is exalted creates millions more, then eventually there will be unlimited gods...and which one would create Elohim in a circular timeline?  Unless Elohim's children are not equal to him, and only one of his children becomes a "Heavenly Father"...perhaps Jesus.  Then it could work.

I will have to do some extensive searching on this one....and I don't have time....but I know it is in one of many books....like JoD...or Joseph Smith's early writings...or journals...or early apostles....writtings....there is just so much I would have to go back through...

I did extensive studying about 15 years ago....and came across it... but I can't remember where....I also came across BY teaching that other church had the Aaronic priesthood already....

Good Sister,

I read and re-read your quotes. I am sorry...they do not speak of progressing from one Kingdom of glory to the next.

A careful study of D&C 76 and 131 teaches this clearly.

Again, it has not been revealed if a person can progress "within" a Kingdom of Glory...IMO..we can. But the Scriptures are clear on the fact that there is no progression from Kingdom to Kingdom.

I guess there are those who disagree, and we are they.

Dear Amillia,

Yes, we can agree to disagree. Just be careful.

Why dont you forward this question to your Area President for clarification. I would be interested in their response.

[Amillia]

Why don't you? I already have my answers. I haven't put up all the quotes that have led me to my conclusion ~ one of the strongest ones coming from John Taylor who actually stated we would be able to move from kingdom to kingdom.

It only makes sense if you believe in doing endowments for the dead. They would have to move from kingdom to kingdom in order to use all the keys and tokens given to them. We all will.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 11:13 AM

Why don't you? I already have my answers. I haven't put up all the quotes that have led me to my conclusion ~ one of the strongest ones coming from John Taylor who actually stated we would be able to move from kingdom to kingdom.

It only makes sense if you believe in doing endowments for the dead. They would have to move from kingdom to kingdom in order to use all the keys and tokens given to them. We all will.

Amillia,

All the Temple work will have already been completed before the final Judgement. Those issues will have already been settled. So, at the time of the Resurrection of the Just in the morning of the First Resurrection, that is when those who are destined to inherit a Celestial glory will be resurrected with their Celestial bodies. When it speaks of the Endowment...it is ONLY making reference to entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.

At the time of the Final Judgement...when we actually inherit the Celestial Kingdom , it is at the time we actually enter into that Kingdom that we use the pure knowledge given to us in the Temple through our endowment and are able to walk past the Angels who are set as Sentinals there.

It is clear in D&C 131...that "in the Celestial Kingdom, there are 3 Heavens or degrees...and in order to obtain the Highest...a man (and woman) must enter into this order of the PH..meaning the New and Everlasting covenant of marriage, and if he does not he CANNOT obtain it.

This verse alone teaches us that there are certain prerequisites in "addition" to receiving ones endowment that MUST be had in order to receive Exaltation. It is clear that those who have received their endowment, and who for whatever reason CHOOSE not to enter the New and Everlasting Covenant of marriage, but are otherwise true and faithful to the gospel and their Temple covenants...could expect to inherit at least one of the "two first degrees" of the Celestial Kingdom....but not Exaltation.

All Temple ordinances are performed for entrance into that Kingdom and no others. A person does not need temple work performed for them to enter either the Terrestial or Telestial kingdoms.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Apr 1 2005, 08:38 AM

Yes, we can agree to disagree. Just be careful.

Why should she be careful? It sounds to me like there is plenty of room on this issue for interpretation. It sounds clear that there have been disagreements on this in the highest echelons of the church. If the guys with the direct pipeline to the divine can't agree than I doubt the Lord would expect perfect agreement from us lowly peons.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by curvette+Apr 1 2005, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Apr 1 2005, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Apr 1 2005, 08:38 AM

Yes, we can agree to disagree.  Just be careful.

Why should she be careful? It sounds to me like there is plenty of room on this issue for interpretation. It sounds clear that there have been disagreements on this in the highest echelons of the church. If the guys with the direct pipeline to the divine can't agree than I doubt the Lord would expect perfect agreement from us lowly peons.

Curvette,

Well, to be honest...I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe there have been any disagreements on it.

Our good sister Amillia mentioned Elder McConkies comments on it during a Devotional address at BYU entitled "The Seven Deadly Heresies"....the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 did not voice ANY disagreement with the position he espoused. I believe therein lies our answer with respect to his address.

I used the phrase "be careful" because we have a responsibility to ensure that what we talk about doctrinally is correct. Between what the scriptures teach on it...and the fact that Elder McConkie spoke to it specifically and the First Presidency did not censure or in any way make any comment to indicate they disagreed...we can only conclude that they in fact...agreed with his comments.

I would still enjoy seeing any statements that speak "clearly" and to the point on this subject. I still have not seen any.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Apr 1 2005, 04:09 PM

..the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 did not voice ANY disagreement with the position he espoused. I believe therein lies our answer with respect to his address.

Hmm...so can we also conclude that the first presidency agrees with McConkie's belief that "negros" were fence sitters in the pre existence and that they would never receive the priesthood? I don't recall ANY disagreement with that voiced by the first presidency either. In fact, it's still in the book. Maybe the first presidency should censure the apostles when they teach false doctrine, but they haven't recently.

[Amillia]

In Talmage's ARTICLES OF FAITH, in the first edition he wrote, "advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom will be provided for." (1st edition pp. 420-421)

Also from WW Journal: "Pres. Young thought none would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods and able to endure the fulness of the presence of God except they might be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. Yet he thought they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress."

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 11:49 PM

In Talmage's ARTICLES OF FAITH, in the first edition he wrote, "advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom will be provided for." (1st edition pp. 420-421)

Also from WW Journal: "Pres. Young thought none would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods and able to endure the fulness of the presence of God except they might be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. Yet he thought they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress."

Amillia,

The entire quote is as follows..."It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be aquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression , advancement within each of the specified kingdom's will be provided for; though as to POSSIBLE progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make NO positive affirmation".

I have said that progression "within" each kingdom is possible. Elder Talmage makes no such statement in support of progression from kingdom to kingdom.

So, when I said to be careful, which although I said "you" my intent was for "all of us" to be careful when we talk about doctrines that have not been fully revealed or clarified.

With respect to Wilford Woodruffs journal entry...all WW can say is that BY "thought" that perhaps this may be how it may work. There is no statement that he was firm in this conviction or that this is correct doctrine, thus an official belief of the Church. It was his opinion, just as Elder Talmages comments are his opinion.

At the very best...I will agree to a tie! LOL! <subject of course to further enlightenment from the Prophets and Apostles>

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by curvette+Apr 1 2005, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Apr 1 2005, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Apr 1 2005, 04:09 PM

..the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 did not voice ANY disagreement with the position he espoused.  I believe therein lies our answer with respect to his address.

Hmm...so can we also conclude that the first presidency agrees with McConkie's belief that "negros" were fence sitters in the pre existence and that they would never receive the priesthood? I don't recall ANY disagreement with that voiced by the first presidency either. In fact, it's still in the book. Maybe the first presidency should censure the apostles when they teach false doctrine, but they haven't recently.

Curvette,

Elder McConkie has every right, like we all do...to write a book and explain things the way he see's them and to voice his opinion on matters.

In the preface Elder McConkie states plainly that the contents of the book are his responsibility and no one elses. Any book written by any member, be they GA or not...should not be held above the scriptures or official proclamations given by the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12.

After Pres.Kimball received the Revelation extending the PH to all worthy male members....Elder McConkie in an address commenting on that revelation said in effect..."forget anything and everything I have written or said concerning this, the Lord has spoken and has made his will known through his Prophet".

So...Elder McConkie was very aware that his thoughts were not the Lord's thoughts...and he acknowledged that publically.

Now when I first saw Amillia's quote from Elder Talmage...my first thought was "ok, now we are getting somewhere". Jesus the Christ and the Articles of Faith are works that Elder Talmage was commissioned by the First Presidency to write, so they hold, IMO...a little more weight.

But, the JoD, Mormom Doctrine and other similiar works should be used in the manner I believe they were intended, which was NOT to be taken as "official doctrine of the Church" but rather as study guides. IMO.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by curvette+Apr 1 2005, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Apr 1 2005, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Apr 1 2005, 04:09 PM

..the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 did not voice ANY disagreement with the position he espoused.  I believe therein lies our answer with respect to his address.

Hmm...so can we also conclude that the first presidency agrees with McConkie's belief that "negros" were fence sitters in the pre existence and that they would never receive the priesthood? I don't recall ANY disagreement with that voiced by the first presidency either. In fact, it's still in the book. Maybe the first presidency should censure the apostles when they teach false doctrine, but they haven't recently.

Curvette,

You misquote Elder McConkie as well!!

Under the topic "Negroes" on pg 527, left hand column toward the bottom..he says...."The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmately to them, although sometimes negroes search out the truth, join the church, and become by righteous living..heirs of the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven. Pres. BY and others have taught that in the future eternity worthy and qualified negroes WILL RECEIVE the PH and EVERY GOSPEL BLESSING available to any man."

So your statement in your post is patently incorrect.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Apr 2 2005, 06:59 AM

So your statement in your post is patently incorrect.

Yes. I forgot to add "in this life." My bad. The brethren have always graciously allowed for the possibility that 'negros" may recieve the priesthood in the eternities.

It's so funny to me that such obviously false and hurtful doctrines are so vehemently defended by some, and yet a doctrine that may possibly seem too merciful is just as passionately declared false. It's actually quite sad.

[Amillia]

Here is what I think:

First, one must live the laws of the kingdom if they want to live in it. ~but I think given enough time ~and the element of one eternal round....and the doctrine taught in the temple.." into one great whole" will bring us all back to our Father....in the eternal eventualities...

Second, those who didn't gain this life....because they didn't live the laws to obtain it ~(I believe ) will eventually be given such a chance again ~and as end meets beginning and all begins again ~they may fail severel times ~but I do believe that the work of the Lord will not be thwarted ~and that work is to bring to pass the imortality and eternal life of man.

Now some would take eternal life to only mean eternal reward or eternal punishment ~or damnation ~(progression or blockage of progression) ~but I hear the words of JS saying...

D&C 121: 33

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

Though this is speaking of only the Latter-day Saints ~and them receiving knowledge ~ I feel we must always look past the contextual limitations to the principle. The principle here is ~ that we cannot hinder the Almighty from doing anything, including bringing all of His children back under the principles of agency and choice ~though it takes several forevers to do so ~

Third, motivation being the power behind most of what we do here, it would seem important to make sure that we know we can't repent on the other side and gain the blessing of the atonement ~( but that doesn't eliminate the power to endure our own punishment and come out ready to progress) ~so that we would make the most of this life while we are here ~but consider the teachings we have received all of our life about how much harder it will be to do the same things over there without a body ~as we do here with a body ~that is motivation....

Also ~knowing that D&C 130:18-19 teaches us that it is so much the advantage to progress her ~ we are also given this as great motivations, without eternally shutting the doors on our brothers and sisters ~who were slower to come around.

I see this earth life as a excelled program, which, if we earned it in the pre-existence, we received this opportunity to advance faste ~.and those who didn't qualify, will have to take the long road. Sort of like catching the monarail compared to walking a long distance.

The advantages is the motivation. We don't have to take anything away from others to gain for ourselves the advantage or motivation, do you see?

I think everyone will progress both within their kingdom and beyond if they do what it takes. I don't think one will get to the very top of the kingdom he/she is in and stay there forever after not progressing further. It just doesn't make sense. Consider the scripture in

D&C 88: 40

40 For ntelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

If one gains more intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, in their asigned and earned kingdom ~then justice would dictate they receive all of these progressively as they have gained them ~no? and that would mean moving on according to their progressiveness ~even to the point of gaining the advantage they lost in their first or second estates.

For instance, those who were maybe laggers in the pre-existence could possibly gain back the advantage they lost there, by joining the church and becoming stalwarts here; doing more than others, sacreficing more for others, etc.(theoretically speaking of course)

I find the human spirit so powerfully forward moving, that even bad choices can be put to our advantage as we grow in wisdom and understanding of it all. Experience is a powerful teacher and motivator.

I had to hit "my bottom" place before I could start to rise up again. I think those who chose wrongly here or before in the pre-existence, may have there own 'bottom' to reach before they start an ascent upwards again ~and Our Father knows this.

He gives us all the space we need to do the 180 ~even if it takes several 360s to finally do the 180 ~when we are going down the wrong path, implimenting all the eternal principles to bring us eventually back to Himself.

I once had my stake president tell me that if we thought we could always do something later, we wouldn't have the motivation to be faithful and live right ~that it was necessary for us to feel the finality of making eternal mistakes ~to decide to do the right thing.

But enduring love/charity is long suffering. Longer than this life, bigger than this one stage of life, for our children ~His children. He waits at that door for us ~all of us.

If we take out the human element, the fallen nature of man ~we see that it isn't cut and dried as final this or that. There is no final. It is one eternal round ~it is always moving ~one way or the other. And there comes a time, even for the hardest heart, when everyone will bend their knee and confess Jesus is the Christ. And it won't be the bending the knee by force. That just isn't the MO of the Lord. It is all voluntary, by choice ~agency. Even our mistakes can be used for our good, when we come to love the Lord.

Can one bend their knee by choice and not feel respect and humility for Christ? And in that humility have we not come from the hardness of heart? And in this humility can we not move forward?

Well, I know I have gone on and on here ~but I have a hard time closing that door of Eternal Love/charity which endureth ~all things.

[Amillia]

The Right Words

================

Lord, give me the right words to say

To broken hearts that come my way

To those who have been hurt before

That, I not hurt them any more

To those whose hearts have hardened up

To those who won't hold out their cup

That, Lord, You long to overflow

With love and mercy. Lord, let me know

That I might have the words to say

That I might plant a seed today

That glory would be given to You

Through all I say and all I do

Lord, give me the right words to say

More hearts are breaking every day

They're out there crying in the night

I long to help them see the light

But, fragile are those souls and weak

So this is why Your words I seek

And pray Thee give me words to say

That I, not one soul, turn away.

~by Susan Tier~

[Amillia]

What does it mean to be perfected? Does one have to be worthy and go to the Celestial kingdom to be perfected?

If so ~ Elder Nelson stated (and it has been stated many times before) we can't be perfected without our ancestors.

So ~ how does this happen if our ancestors are never brought into the Celestial Glory?

And can Christ truly be perfected if we are not, based upon this principle?

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 2 2005, 12:01 PM

Here is what I think:

First, one must live the laws of the kingdom if they want to live in it. ~but I think given enough time ~and the element of one eternal round....and the doctrine taught in the temple.." into one great whole" will bring us all back to our Father....in the eternal eventualities...

Second, those who didn't gain this life....because they didn't live the laws to obtain it ~(I believe ) will eventually be given such a chance again ~and as end meets beginning and all begins again ~they may fail severel times ~but I do believe that the work of the Lord will not be thwarted ~and that work is to bring to pass the imortality and eternal life of man.

Now some would take eternal life to only mean eternal reward or eternal punishment ~or damnation ~(progression or blockage of progression) ~but I hear the words of JS saying...

D&C 121: 33

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

Though this is speaking of only the Latter-day Saints ~and them receiving knowledge ~ I feel we must always look past the contextual limitations to the principle. The principle here is ~ that we cannot hinder the Almighty from doing anything, including bringing all of His children back under the principles of agency and choice ~though it takes several forevers to do so ~

Third, motivation being the power behind most of what we do here, it would seem important to make sure that we know we can't repent on the other side and gain the blessing of the atonement ~( but that doesn't eliminate the power to endure our own punishment and come out ready to progress) ~so that we would make the most of this life while we are here ~but consider the teachings we have received all of our life about how much harder it will be to do the same things over there without a body ~as we do here with a body ~that is motivation....

Also ~knowing that D&C 130:18-19 teaches us that it is so much the advantage to progress her ~ we are also given this as great motivations, without eternally shutting the doors on our brothers and sisters ~who were slower to come around.

I see this earth life as a excelled program, which, if we earned it in the pre-existence, we received this opportunity to advance faste ~.and those who didn't qualify, will have to take the long road. Sort of like catching the monarail compared to walking a long distance.

The advantages is the motivation. We don't have to take anything away from others to gain for ourselves the advantage or motivation, do you see?

I think everyone will progress both within their kingdom and beyond if they do what it takes. I don't think one will get to the very top of the kingdom he/she is in and stay there forever after not progressing further. It just doesn't make sense. Consider the scripture in

D&C 88: 40

40 For ntelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

If one gains more intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, in their asigned and earned kingdom ~then justice would dictate they receive all of these progressively as they have gained them ~no? and that would mean moving on according to their progressiveness ~even to the point of gaining the advantage they lost in their first or second estates.

For instance, those who were maybe laggers in the pre-existence could possibly gain back the advantage they lost there, by joining the church and becoming stalwarts here; doing more than others, sacreficing more for others, etc.(theoretically speaking of course)

I find the human spirit so powerfully forward moving, that even bad choices can be put to our advantage as we grow in wisdom and understanding of it all. Experience is a powerful teacher and motivator.

I had to hit "my bottom" place before I could start to rise up again. I think those who chose wrongly here or before in the pre-existence, may have there own 'bottom' to reach before they start an ascent upwards again ~and Our Father knows this.

He gives us all the space we need to do the 180 ~even if it takes several 360s to finally do the 180 ~when we are going down the wrong path, implimenting all the eternal principles to bring us eventually back to Himself.

I once had my stake president tell me that if we thought we could always do something later, we wouldn't have the motivation to be faithful and live right ~that it was necessary for us to feel the finality of making eternal mistakes ~to decide to do the right thing.

But enduring love/charity is long suffering. Longer than this life, bigger than this one stage of life, for our children ~His children. He waits at that door for us ~all of us.

If we take out the human element, the fallen nature of man ~we see that it isn't cut and dried as final this or that. There is no final. It is one eternal round ~it is always moving ~one way or the other. And there comes a time, even for the hardest heart, when everyone will bend their knee and confess Jesus is the Christ. And it won't be the bending the knee by force. That just isn't the MO of the Lord. It is all voluntary, by choice ~agency. Even our mistakes can be used for our good, when we come to love the Lord.

Can one bend their knee by choice and not feel respect and humility for Christ? And in that humility have we not come from the hardness of heart? And in this humility can we not move forward?

Well, I know I have gone on and on here ~but I have a hard time closing that door of Eternal Love/charity which endureth ~all things.

Dear Amillia,

I hope you enjoyed conference as much as I did! It was wonderful!

Good sister, I was just curious....you mentioned in one of your posts that there is no "final" but everything is one eternal round.

From your perspective..what is your understanding of what the "Final Judgement" is? What is the purpose of it?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Apr 4 2005, 06:27 AM

Dear Amillia,

I hope you enjoyed conference as much as I did!  It was wonderful!

Good sister, I was just curious....you mentioned in one of your posts that there is no "final" but everything is one eternal round.  

From your perspective..what is your understanding of what the "Final Judgement" is?  What is the purpose of it?

I loved conference. I wished there were more.

Final judgment is a time when everyone will stand before Christ to have their life on this earth reviewed. I'm sure there was one before we came here, reviewing what we had done in the pre-existence. My husband's patriarchial blessings states that he was given a good home and parents who were members of the church, IOW born in the covenant, because of his valiancy in the pre-existence. That meant there was a final judgment before we were given our earthly asignments.

There are many endings and new beginnings. There always will be. One eternal round necessitates progression.

We can't let end of the world, final judgments and other such phrases' meanings be held back by men's conceptual and limited understandings. We must not lean to our own understandings or we will be as the pharasees who thought Christ was speaking of the actual temple building, rather than His own body when He stated that if they destroyed it, He would build it back up in three days.

The Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah because they were looking for 'literal' worldly leadership. They didn't put the prophecies into their proper perspectives, and were caught up in their own worldly needs.

We also need to be careful not to try and limit the work of the Lord in behave of ALL of us, because we are ALL eternally connected. We know it is important to do our geneology and temple work for this reason.

Many of the terms used in scripture and doctrine are not so singly dimentional was we think. There is much the people didn't understand in Christ's work and day. There was much the people didn't understand in Joseph Smith's work ~

They search, and they find understandings at one level which seem to be totally contradicted at another. But in truth nothing really is contradictory. Our understanding just lacks the eternal and long term perspective. We are very finite people in a finite world. But God isn't. His work is endless, because He is the beginning and the end, we aren't.

Joseph Smith once stated that if he told the saints all that he was given and knew, they would ride him out of town on a rail and label him a heritic.

This is true. It is why we are to not share too much of what we have been given spiritually, because it is only given to those who are ready to receive it.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 4 2005, 09:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 4 2005, 09:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Apr 4 2005, 06:27 AM

Dear Amillia,

I hope you enjoyed conference as much as I did!  It was wonderful!

Good sister, I was just curious....you mentioned in one of your posts that there is no "final" but everything is one eternal round.  

From your perspective..what is your understanding of what the "Final Judgement" is?  What is the purpose of it?

I loved conference. I wished there were more.

Final judgment is a time when everyone will stand before Christ to have their life on this earth reviewed. I'm sure there was one before we came here, reviewing what we had done in the pre-existence. My husband's patriarchial blessings states that he was given a good home and parents who were members of the church, IOW born in the covenant, because of his valiancy in the pre-existence. That meant there was a final judgment before we were given our earthly asignments.

There are many endings and new beginnings. There always will be. One eternal round necessitates progression.

We can't let end of the world, final judgments and other such phrases' meanings be held back by men's conceptual and limited understandings. We must not lean to our own understandings or we will be as the pharasees who thought Christ was speaking of the actual temple building, rather than His own body when He stated that if they destroyed it, He would build it back up in three days.

The Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah because they were looking for 'literal' worldly leadership. They didn't put the prophecies into their proper perspectives, and were caught up in their own worldly needs.

We also need to be careful not to try and limit the work of the Lord in behave of ALL of us, because we are ALL eternally connected. We know it is important to do our geneology and temple work for this reason.

Many of the terms used in scripture and doctrine are not so singly dimentional was we think. There is much the people didn't understand in Christ's work and day. There was much the people didn't understand in Joseph Smith's work ~

They search, and they find understandings at one level which seem to be totally contradicted at another. But in truth nothing really is contradictory. Our understanding just lacks the eternal and long term perspective. We are very finite people in a finite world. But God isn't. His work is endless, because He is the beginning and the end, we aren't.

Joseph Smith once stated that if he told the saints all that he was given and knew, they would ride him out of town on a rail and label him a heritic.

This is true. It is why we are to not share too much of what we have been given spiritually, because it is only given to those who are ready to receive it.

Dear Amillia,

I want you to know that I have very much enjoyed our discussion on Eternal Progression. I realize we disagree on some points...but I have thoroughly enjoyed it!

I have continued to study and ponder over this question of if there is progression from Kingdom to Kingdom. I have reaffirmed several doctrinal truths that I feel have a bearing on this discussion. I will offer my thoughts in a moment.

Next week we will be having our Qtrly PH leadership meeting, with a meeting of Stake Presidency,HC and Bishopric's. At the beginning of each meeting there is a short question and answer period. I will be asking this question of the group for their thoughts on the matter.

Now my thoughts....you made the comment in your last post that in your view the "Final Judgement" will be a "review" of our life. I would disagree.

In Rev. 20:11-15 and 2 Nephi 9:15-16 it states clearly that we will be "judged" not "reviewed" (reviewed to me simply implies, going over our life...with no real accountablity or right and wrong...just a "hey this is what you did"...next).....

But, I submit to you that a "judgement" as referred to in these 2 verses alone (there a many others) imply that there will be a "judge" and a "sentence passed" based upon our degree of faithfulness here in this probation.

The above mentioned scriptural references refer to the "Final Judgement" when all mankind will stand before their maker and be judged. After this "Final Judgement" we will thus inherit the Kingdom of Glory that we have prepared for during this life.

It is my understanding that "eternal progression" when understood and applied to its fullest extent...can ONLY be enjoyed by those who become Exalted. The scriptures are clear on this point.

The people who inherit a Terrestial or Telestial glory will never have the truths and the powers that are possessed by those who become Exalted. The simple fact that we know there are "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and exceeding, and eternal weight of Glory", and "THEY SO CONTINUE TO ALL ETERNITY, AND FOREVER AND EVER". It is clear that these people will NOT be progressing in the fullest sense as those who are Exalted. See D&C 132:16-17

I have been rereading "ARTICLES of FAITH" and the more I read it..the more distinct impression I receive that Elder Talmage does not believe in progression from Kingdom to Kingdom. On page 372..last half of the last paragraph he simply says "Freedom to worship, or to refuse to worship, is a God-given right, and every soul MUST ABIDE THE RESULT OF HIS CHOICE".

So to me what he is telling us, in light of the scriptures and his own feelings of inspiration on the subject...is that TODAY is the day to prepare to meet God, and that we will be judged accordingly...thereafter to be resurrected with the body that we have lived and prepared for here on earth. He gives no hint of a "perpetual second chance" theory...nor do the scriptures, at least the ones I have read.

In deed, the notion that eventually we will possess and attain Exaltation eventually...regardless of whether we chose to live a Celestial law here on earth..to me is going against the scriptural injunction that indeed, Mercy cannot rob Justice.

The Lords Plan of Salvation provides every individual who has, or will yet ever live on earth, every opportunity to hear and accept the gospel. We cannot be judgemental on what constitutes an "opportunity", thus the plan provides opportunity for all...then the Lord will judge whether they are worthy of Exaltation and the priviledge of "Eternal Progression" in the complete and fullest sense.

You mention that perhaps we should be careful of using such "finite" terms such as Final Judgement etc. I submit to you that as Latter Day Saints we have a correct understanding of those terms, because they have been clarified to us through the Lords Prophets and Apostles. We need not be shy or hestitant about using them with perfect confidence. IMO.

[Amillia]

Now my thoughts....you made the comment in your last post that in your view the "Final Judgement" will be a "review" of our life. I would disagree.

In Rev. 20:11-15 and 2 Nephi 9:15-16 it states clearly that we will be "judged" not "reviewed" (reviewed to me simply implies, going over our life...with no real accountablity or right and wrong...just a "hey this is what you did"...next).....

But, I submit to you that a "judgement" as referred to in these 2 verses alone (there a many others) imply that there will be a "judge" and a "sentence passed" based upon our degree of faithfulness here in this probation.

The above mentioned scriptural references refer to the "Final Judgement" when all mankind will stand before their maker and be judged. After this "Final Judgement" we will thus inherit the Kingdom of Glory that we have prepared for during this life.

Dear Randy,

We don't disagree on this point. It was a matter of samantics. I used the term review, as a going through all that we did and being judged, I just didn't use the word judged. Sorry.

It is my understanding that "eternal progression" when understood and applied to its fullest extent...can ONLY be enjoyed by those who become Exalted. The scriptures are clear on this point.

The people who inherit a Terrestial or Telestial glory will never have the truths and the powers that are possessed by those who become Exalted. The simple fact that we know there are "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and exceeding, and eternal weight of Glory", and "THEY SO CONTINUE TO ALL ETERNITY, AND FOREVER AND EVER". It is clear that these people will NOT be progressing in the fullest sense as those who are Exalted. See D&C 132:16-17

This section also advocates plural marriage. In the time we are 'quickened' by which ever glory we obtain at that time (Section 88) we receive that amount of glory ~ then it goes on to tell us that is according to our righteousness and that virtue cleaveth to virtue etc. I think if you ponder section 88 you will see there is more than first meets the eye.

I have been rereading "ARTICLES of FAITH" and the more I read it..the more distinct impression I receive that Elder Talmage does not believe in progression from Kingdom to Kingdom. On page 372..last half of the last paragraph he simply says "Freedom to worship, or to refuse to worship, is a God-given right, and every soul MUST ABIDE THE RESULT OF HIS CHOICE".

I think it isn't a question of receiving the results of our choices ~ but rather how it will all play out.

It is a consequence to be assigned to a lower kingdom and have to work harder to move forward there, than it would have been here.

So to me what he is telling us, in light of the scriptures and his own feelings of inspiration on the subject...is that TODAY is the day to prepare to meet God, and that we will be judged accordingly...thereafter to be resurrected with the body that we have lived and prepared for here on earth. He gives no hint of a "perpetual second chance" theory...nor do the scriptures, at least the ones I have read.

This is the time to prepare to meet God. As you referenced ~ we will stand before the Lord and be judged. We are to use this life to prepare for that day. So I totally agree with this.

On the other hand, I don't see it as a second chance, to be allowed to progress in the kingdom we are assigned, and then to pass to the lowest level of the next kingdom and work our way up that one ~etc..

The brethren have taught that we can progress within the kingdom we are assigned ~ wouldn't that be in the same catagory as a second chance as you have discribed above? If not, neither will moving up to another kingdom. It is progressing upward in both situations.

We have blown our chance to reach the top by doing it right in this life. We will be assigned to a lower kingdom. There is no changing that.

There is no second chance to come to this earth and do it over and reach the top the relatively easier way. We have spent our inheritence (as in the prodical son) though we will be able to be accepted back into the family ~ we will not be getting that inheritence again. That inheritence was the 'advantage'. We will not have the advantage we could have gained in this life, again.

But it doesn't say anywhere that we won't be accepted back into the family of the Lord, in fact the parable of the prodical teaches us that we will. And interestingly enough, the elder brother/righteous brother ~ is upset by that ~ and has to be reminded that he is the one who will inherit all that his Father hast. ~

Yet the prodical was given the ring, robe, and fatted calf ~ as a recognition of his being accepted, though late in coming. All he lost was the advantage, the inheritence. ~ I don't believe that this prodical will become a God in the highest kingdom of the Celestial kingdom, but he will be able to be a servant.

Read the New Testiment comentary on this parable. A couple of the prophets have given this interpretation.

In deed, the notion that eventually we will possess and attain Exaltation eventually...regardless of whether we chose to live a Celestial law here on earth..to me is going against the scriptural injunction that indeed, Mercy cannot rob Justice.

Mercy cannot rob Justice, and justice is not being robbed if we suffer the buffettings of Satan, and suffer our own punishments for sins.

I don't remember saying they would be Exalted. I just stated they would be able to progress from one kingdom to the next ~ even to the highest kingdom Celestial kingdom. However, they would only be servants there.

The Lords Plan of Salvation provides every individual who has, or will yet ever live on earth, every opportunity to hear and accept the gospel. We cannot be judgemental on what constitutes an "opportunity", thus the plan provides opportunity for all...then the Lord will judge whether they are worthy of Exaltation and the priviledge of "Eternal Progression" in the complete and fullest sense.

This is true. What exactly are we speaking about when we are saying Exaltation and the priviledge of Eternal Progression? Are we just speaking of those who reached the top of the top and become Gods and Godesses? If so, those who are going to be sealed to this kingdom and calling will have to suffer for some sins they didn't repent of here by suffering the buffets of Satan. But they will still be able to come to it.

Joseph Smith believed that no matter what Emma did, he would and could reach down to the depths of hell and bring her up to the highest kingdom to be with him.

You mention that perhaps we should be careful of using such "finite" terms such as Final Judgement etc. I submit to you that as Latter Day Saints we have a correct understanding of those terms, because they have been clarified to us through the Lords Prophets and Apostles. We need not be shy or hestitant about using them with perfect confidence. IMO.

Interestingly enough, I am not saying they have the wrong understanding, I am just saying they don't have the whole understanding, or if they do, they don't teach it. There is a great difference.

I asked my Stake President this once:

"My girl friend had a child out of wedlock ~ but later was married in the temple. I stayed pure and virtuous and married in the temple. Should this girl receive the exact level as I do after this life? She thinks she will."

He said: "No she shouldn't and won't. But we don't teach that because they would be discouraged and not try so hard to be good."

This was interesting to me. It told me that we aren't always being taught all there is to understand because we are only being given what the general members can understand and receive.

I think it interesting, that I thought that if she did get to have the same level as I did, that I had no real motivation to stay pure ~ I could just always repent later and move right back to the top. Of course, as I see it now, she will get to the top, but not as quickly as I do. She won't have the advantage though she repented, she spent her inheritence and won't get another.

Anyway, I have totally enjoyed your end of this discussion. Thanks~

BTW I can't wait to hear what your leaders tell you.

[ThunderFire]

Originally posted by Writer_Chick1213@Mar 21 2005, 12:39 PM

I know the ideal situation would for this little boy to be adopted by a family with two parents but he is a special needs child and has already been placed 7 times and he's only 5, he was deemed unadoptable by social services but he has been with us for almost a year and we're making things work.

Dear sister,

Your post touched my heart deeply and I "see" the hand of God in all that your mother is trying to do. To love those whom society deems as "unlovable" becomes the foundation to the ministry of Jesus Christ. You implied that the "ideal" family for this boy may be something else, yet it is the one ordained by God for you to experience his "fullness" within because he brought you together.

I believe the miracle began the moment your mother decided to take upon herself the responsibility of tending after the needs of another, even one who was cast off. Isn't this then the spiritual "essence" of sealing? To bring two or more together in the name of the Lord so his spirit will bind us together with him in this world as well as the world to come.

In Christ I Serve,

Thunderfire

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 5 2005, 04:23 PM

I think it interesting, that I thought that if she did get to have the same level as I did, that I had no real motivation to stay pure ~ I could just always repent later and move right back to the top. Of course, as I see it now, she will get to the top, but not as quickly as I do. She won't have the advantage though she repented, she spent her inheritence and won't get another.

What a crazy attitude. I imagine you were fairly young when you asked this question, so I hope you have moved past the attitude that somehow "sinning" is fun and some kind of a reward. The fact that you could get up every morning, look in the mirror and feel good about yourself and the choices you made are a reward for you. Our motivation should be to obey the Lord because we LOVE and trust him, not because some great reward awaits us. I doubt your friend felt very good about herself through those times. I would think you would be happy to know that repentence is available to everyone who sins (which is all of us), and that, yes, we eventually can all have the same reward. I think your Stake President was dead wrong in this. Doesn't he know the parable of the field laborers?

As far as the 'Inheritance" being spent, the prodigal son would not have received the same reward as the older brother no matter what he did. The oldest son received the Lion's share of the Father's wealth ALWAYS, unless he did something to disinherit himself. So this parable can't be talking about losing eternal inheritance because the best inheritance wasn't available to him at the start. No matter what he did, he wouldn't have received as much as his brother. The lesson is about rejoicing at the return of the lost soul.