Believe, Works, and Faith

[JohnnyRudick]

And, J. Rudick, I believe you just set the record for the longest post ever on lds.net.

I did read it though.

:rofl:Thanks:p

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

AJ4U,

I suggest you do some reading to better understand the Bible. Most churches teach us how to understand the Bible in light of their creeds and beliefs. However, there is what is called historical critical studies, which allow us to look closely at what happens behind the scenes of the written word.

You seem to believe that the Bible is God-breathed. Yet, Bible scholars can easily show that while it may be inspired, it is not a perfect book. I suggest a new book out for you to read, probably at your local library: Jesus Interrupted, by Professor Bart Ehrman. Prof Ehrman began as a very conservative Christian theologian, who attended Moody's Seminary, and then Princeton. He is an expert in the New Testament, and has written many books on it, and how it isn't what most Christians think it is: a perfect book from God.

That said, it is a perfect example of why we need prophets and apostles today. They receive inspiration from God to guide us TODAY in what we need to know. They can guide us in understanding the scriptures in the way God wants us to understand them. In reality, there are thousands of Christian denominations in the world. Each uses the Bible. Well, if the Bible were God-Breathed, why would we need more than the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church? There are break-aways from these two religions precisely because the Bible is not perfect, and different people read and understand it differently.

[JohnnyRudick]

AJ4U,

I suggest you do some reading to better understand the Bible. Most churches teach us how to understand the Bible in light of their creeds and beliefs. However, there is what is called historical critical studies, which allow us to look closely at what happens behind the scenes of the written word.

You seem to believe that the Bible is God-breathed. Yet, Bible scholars can easily show that while it may be inspired, it is not a perfect book. I suggest a new book out for you to read, probably at your local library: Jesus Interrupted, by Professor Bart Ehrman. Prof Ehrman began as a very conservative Christian theologian, who attended Moody's Seminary, and then Princeton. He is an expert in the New Testament, and has written many books on it, and how it isn't what most Christians think it is: a perfect book from God.

That said, it is a perfect example of why we need prophets and apostles today. They receive inspiration from God to guide us TODAY in what we need to know. They can guide us in understanding the scriptures in the way God wants us to understand them. In reality, there are thousands of Christian denominations in the world. Each uses the Bible. Well, if the Bible were God-Breathed, why would we need more than the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church? There are break-aways from these two religions precisely because the Bible is not perfect, and different people read and understand it differently.

I have to agree to a point.

I most likely have more faith in the established Scripture (I get that from what you wrote above only) then you do. ( I do not know that for a fact.)

But the early Church had Peter, James, John and Paul in particular to guide them in the way of Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for the day of the early beginnings of the "Church turned to the Gentiles".

And this guidance was good enough to carry them on even after the leadership of the Church were gone and bring them to this day of Restoration.

Tet we must remember to

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a

workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word

of truth.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they

will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Timothy 2:15 and 16

Who said it?

What was said?

Who did he/she say it to?

When was it said?

Where was it said?

Why was it said?

Just a thought.

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 16, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[aj4u]

Oh, I have the references and I agree.

I guess we just agree differently:wacko:

I quess that is the irony of this whole discussion. I really can't find what it is to disagree with you on this topic. It is not that I want to. Nevertheless, we must both agree that Mormonism and fundamental Christianity are obviously mutually exclusive beliefs that cannot both be right. Finally, the irony is both views are called to evangelism. I cannot blame you or any on the forum for trying to convince me of what you sincerely believe to be true. I have been amusing you it seems with my debate with Justice where I appeared to be partronizing him, but that was not my purpose. I am sure you understood this because you where able to articulate back the point I was trying to make regarding faith and works. At first Justice totally misunderstood me only to find that I was going a bit deeper into the subject than he realized to the point he made the comment, "I am slow." I also understood He was trying to understand me, and what I meant. I was trying to make things clear to him not belittle him or anyone. Here is another irony still (they never stop:megaman:) I actually have no problem thinking of Justice as greater than myself. I have a good reason for believing this.

You are a slave and I am free.

Yet I work as though I were a slave sometimes:rolleyes:

But I want to.

I am not a slave to it.

My children worked to help me.

I was their father and could Make them but they worked from the moment they could.

It never accored to them until they ran into some in the world that asked "Why do you do that?"

They would answer "Why not?"

But then the ways of man would get in the way.

But the nature of the person Born of the Spirit is to work out of Love of God and man.

Not out of duty or for reward but out of "Why not"?

I am not sure how to explain Spiritual things, you almost have to see from here.

You may have an idea and a taste of what I and others have tried to explain.

Some with more Patience then others but. . .

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which

are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the

Spirit.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak

through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of

sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled

in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things

of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of

the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be

spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for

it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please

God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if

so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have

not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because

of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from

the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead

shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth

in you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the

flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but

if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye

shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they

are the sons of God.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor

ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things

which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his

Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things

of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man,

save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God

knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the

world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the

things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words

which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;

comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things

of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither

can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Bro. Rudick

You'll get no arguement from me on the Holy Scriptures. Edited May 17, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Now, now, aj4u. You know perfectly well that I never said any such thing.

This is a misrepresentation of my post. Rather, I told you that your preaching is out of place on this particular board (which is called LDS Gospel Discussion). Other boards on this site are better suited to your efforts to call us to repentance. I even provided links for your convenience.

I have no interest in "justifying my doctrine" to nonbelievers in the LDS Gospel Discussion forum. When I get a hankering to do so on lds.net, I head over to one of the forums I pointed you to. This particular forum is not for such things. I think I was pretty clear in saying that.

I understand. I didn't at first. In that case, would you like to address my question on LDS belief on how Jesus can be the spiritual brother of His own creation? These things confuse me about it LDS beliefs. I had asked this question 3 times and received no response. I am sure you have one, but I haven't heard it. As far as posting things in the inappropriate location forgive me. I am still realtively new here on the forum.

[rameumptom]

AJ4U,

Christ is the God of the physical creation of our world. Heavenly Father is the spiritual Creator of all things, prior to the physical creation. Jesus created under the guidance of Heavenly Father.

So, we are all spirit children of God, as Paul tells us in Hebrews 12:9. Yet, we also see that Jesus created the earth, etc., in physical form during the Creation (Hebrews 1:1-2) where we are taught:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

So, God can create us as spirits, and Christ can make the physical worlds of our universe.

[Guest]

I understand. I didn't at first. In that case, would you like to address my question on LDS belief on how Jesus can be the spiritual brother of His own creation? These things confuse me about it LDS beliefs. I had asked this question 3 times and received no response. I am sure you have one, but I haven't heard it. As far as posting things in the inappropriate location forgive me. I am still realtively new here on the forum.

AJ, I answered this question. It's on the previous page, I believe. Go look it up, please.

Edit: 2 pages ago now. This post just went to a new page.

[JohnnyRudick]

I understand. I didn't at first. In that case, would you like to address my question on LDS belief on how Jesus can be the spiritual brother of His own creation? These things confuse me about it LDS beliefs. I had asked this question 3 times and received no response. I am sure you have one, but I haven't heard it. As far as posting things in the inappropriate location forgive me. I am still realtively new here on the forum.

I hope that I and my friends will take the patience to show you in Scripture, using the Bible if at all possible and I know it is as I have written a pamphlet years ago explaining this very subject that rameumptom has touched on.

You know that we are Children of Jesus Christ by Adoption.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage

again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,

whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

This makes us Jesus Christ, Our God our Father.

Yet we are spirit children of the Father (God)

God. frustrated with His servant Job, came to him and spoke these words to him.

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without

knowledge?

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of

thee, and answer thou me.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the

earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?

or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who

laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons

of God shouted for joy?

You must understand that in the old testament no individual person was referred to as a son of God.

Israel was the adopted son of god but it was a corporate adoption.

Israel as a whole not each single individual Israelite.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the

LORD, Israel [all of Israel (plural] is my son[singular], even my firstborn:

Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may

serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay

thy son, even thy firstborn.

The only Son of God on the earth referred to in the Old Testament times that is before the resurrection of Jesus Christ, was Adam and the forth Angel who visited Daniel in the midst of the fire.

Therer were no Sons of Gos on the Earth prior to the resurrection. mentioned in the Bible.

Those sons of God who shouted for joy were pre-Earth men who were sons of the Father

waiting for their future birth on Earth.

Jesus was among them. and so were you and I.

We maybe even knew each other.

Ever met someone you swear you knew in another life?

I'm not saying you were once someone else.

No, You were alwasy you and I was alwas me, yet we did not always live here on this Earth, in this house of flesh.

We were once spirit.

Before we were born Father knew us.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and

before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I

ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That included you and I also.

We were spirit children in Heaven waiting to be born on this earth.

Jesus was a Spirit Child with us.

He was the First born, the closest to the Father

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto

God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down,

for there is space there, and we will take of these materials,

and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will

do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added

upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have

glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate;

and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon

their heads for ever and ever.

Abraham 3:27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one

answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And

another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said:

I will send the first.

Abraham 3:28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first

estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Please ask Questions.

For how else will will you get answers from the many great scholars (and we have som:D) who are believers in the Holy Scriptures then here in the LDS.net;)

Well there are some who. . . but. . .

Bro. Rudick

Bro. Rudick

[Justice]

This is some of the clarification that the Book of Mormon offers us in our attempt to undetrstand the role of works. If you are truly curious, then read the following scripture slowly and carefully, looking for what part works play in our exaltation, when works come to be, and whether or not we can work before we receive exaltaion:

Alma 12:

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as Gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good—

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.

33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent, and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;

34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.

35 And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest.

The only question one should have after this scripture is, "How do I interpret the Bible to agree with this scripture?"

[Justice]

aj4u, the only difficulty I've had is understanding your interpretation of the scriptures. The problem is I just don't get what you get from them. I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to reconcile that in scripture... and I can't.

If one believes in agency, then they must believe a man is free to act (work) according to his desires. God does not control what actions (works) a man does. However, when a man makes covenants with God, God can then more fully help a man keep His covenant. I believe that is the great mystery to you. Once you come to know and understand the covenants God has included in His plan of redemption, then it is easier to see how God can offer help to the penitent. God does not make one penitent, but He has made that available to men because of the gift of His Son.

[aj4u]

I just had a lot of comments and accidently hit the back button and couldn't go forward all work lost. I'll have to respond later sorry! talk about frustration

[Justice]

Ahhh been there, done that. I feel your pain.

[JohnnyRudick]

Ahhh been there, done that. I feel your pain.

Yeah, me too:D

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

AJ4U,

Christ is the God of the physical creation of our world. Heavenly Father is the spiritual Creator of all things, prior to the physical creation. Jesus created under the guidance of Heavenly Father.

So, we are all spirit children of God, as Paul tells us in Hebrews 12:9. Yet, we also see that Jesus created the earth, etc., in physical form during the Creation (Hebrews 1:1-2) where we are taught:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

So, God can create us as spirits, and Christ can make the physical worlds of our universe.

I am not really good at apologetics. This forum has proved that to me. Therefore, I am all for dumbing down the topics. I think I have had too many irons in the fire. We have discussed faith and works, different levels of heaven, baptism, and the deity of Christ and several other things that I can't remember. Let me see, I ask a question below and was told it was answered but I couldn't find it. What is wrong with cutting and pasting for a CP dummy like me? I would like for you to see the way I see Jesus from the Bible to see if you can understand me seeing Him this way. The last question was that the Father God and Jesus are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. He is, however, also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" I understand the ramification of this? All Scriptures from the Bible are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. References: Heb. 1

The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation? I receive no response from you. I am being called a troll and insulting for this? If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother!

EPHESIANS

49-1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: He is above it because He created thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers.

COLOSSIANS

51-1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him... He created angels. Satan was God's glorious creation (Light bearer) who now deceives people because he can appear as an angel of light for that very purpose. So we are not ignorant of his devices. But Jesus is the truth and He is above all created things on earth and in heaven.

COLOSSIANS

51-2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Even God calls Jesus God in Heb 1.

Jesus is not only the son of God, He is God the Son. He is our Savior, Creator raiser of the dead and He is our Judge. The Father judges no man (Jn 5) Jesus is not a god because He is God born of a virgin to take on human form. He was not a man come to teach us about God; he was God comming to teach man. Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

66-10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Jesus made all things in heaven and earth. They were made by Him, through Him and for Him. There was no God formed before Him nor shall there be any after HimIsaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I see that there is only one God and that no one will compare to Him. The act of God becoming flesh does not get any more spiritual than this. Jesus creator of all things not only physical. He also created the unseen spiritual things, and was not created Himself. He always existed as the Word of God before the foundations of the world. The father says He is the first and the last and Jesus says he is the first and the last. There are not two first and last. I think the way the Devil messes with people is by giving people a distorted view of Christ.

Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u

[bytor2112]

The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation?

It's really very simple. God the Father is the Father of us all......the Father of our spirits. Jesus Christ is the first born of the Father. We are quite literally his brothers and sisters. Jesus Christ came to do the will of his Father, by Christ the Father created all things.

[aj4u]

God created the worlds into existence through Christ because Christ is the Word of God and God spoke things into being by the Word. The Word is God the Word was God. It is important to know who Jesus our Judge is. The worlds were not created by Jesus under the guidance of Heavenly Father. Jesus is the Word of the Father. The Father says to the Son "But thy throne OH God is established forever." God was never without His word. He exalts His Word above His name! God is Spirit made flesh through Jesus . Jesus said before Abraham was "I am" God told Moses "I am"

Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

"I am not really good at apologetics. This forum has proved that to me. Therefore, I am all for dumbing down the topics."

I try:confused:

" I think I have had too many irons in the fire. We have discussed faith and works, different levels of heaven, baptism, and the deity of Christ and several other things that I can't remember. Let me see, I ask a question below and was told it was answere but I could'nt find it. What is wrong with cutting and pasting for a CP dummy like me?"

Nothing

"I would like for you to see the way I see Jesus from the Bible and see if you can understand me seeing Him this way. The last question was that

the Father God and Jesus are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory."

OK:mellow:

" That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. He is, however, also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being.

Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God.

Jesus Christ in essense always was God.

"The Word was God"

I understand the ramification of this?

All Scriptures from the Bible are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. References: Heb. 1

The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation?

I receive no response from you.

I am being called a troll and insulting for this?

If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother!EPHESIANS

49-1:21

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

He is above it because He created thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers.

COLOSSIANS

51-1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him... He created angels. Satan was God's glorious creation (Light bearer) who now deceives people because he can appear as an angel of light for that very purpose. So we are not ignorant of his devices. But Jesus is the truth and He is above all created thing on earth and in heaven.

COLOSSIANS

51-2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Even God calls Jesus God in Heb 1.

Jesus is not only the son of God, He is God the Son. He is our Savior, Creator raiser of the dead and He is our Judge. The Father judges no man (Jn 5) Jesus is not a god because He is God born of a virgin to take on human form. He was not a man come to teach us about God; he was God comming to teach man. Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

66-10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Jesus made all things in heaven and earth. They were made by Him, through Him and for Him. There was no God formed before Him nor shall there be any after Him Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I see that there is only one God and that no one will compare to Him."

You are reading our posts. right?

Most if not all of your questions are answered.

You are reading too fast.

Jesus is God

The Father is God

Jesus and His Father created this Universe for us.

Enjoy;)

[aj4u]

It's really very simple. God the Father is the Father of us all......the Father of our spirits. Jesus Christ is the first born of the Father. We are quite literally his brothers and sisters. Jesus Christ came to do the will of his Father, by Christ the Father created all things.

This is the problem I am having. First born doesn't mean a physical birth or even the fact that someone was born first. It is a term to mean position. For instance, when Jacob and Essau were born, Essau was born first but Jacob was considered the first born. Jesus is not God's creation. Jesus is God who is a Spirit becomming flesh throught the virgin birth of Mary. Emmanuel means God with us. Only Satan would have people believe that Jesus isn't God. There aren't three separated Gods. There is only one God! God is not the Father of us in the sense of a physical reunion. He is our father by creation, But Jesus created all things so How can He be our brother? He is our Judge and creator. He is God. Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

. . . The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation? I receive no response from you. I am being called a troll and insulting for this? If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother! . . .

I was the one who called you a troll and that you were insulting, so I'll respond (make sure to address me directly instead of rameumpton).

First: we are not pots, but I understand the analogy you are using. It is okay if you are not LDS, but wrong headed if you are. This is one of those things that Latter-day Saints differ from what PC calls traditional Chr-stianity. While yes we believe we were created, we know by whom we were created. You have yet to approach the question of when Latter-day Saints believe humanity was created. It is the lynchpin to the answer to your question: "How can Jesus be [our] spiritual or elder brother?"

Now, I will say that I am not going to dilute LDS doctrine with interfaith diplomacy. You want compromise, seek it elsewhere.

Our spirits were created by G-d the F-ther. H- is the Cr-ator.

Latter-day Saints deny the Nicene Creed, the Trinity, and the Triune G-d. Oook!?! Where does that put us, I wonder. Different!!! And happily so.

Second: We were created before the Earth was!!! Our spirits were not created at conception. Our spirits were created by our F-ther and we lived with H-m in what we call The Pre-existence. Who was created at that time? Every spirit that has interdicted the earth (and others), this includes those spirits who are united with lucifer and oppose humanity and who will never receive a body. This also includes J-sus Chr-st. H-, according to LDS doctrine, was created when we were in the pre-existence. I told you about Mormon.org - Home , you can look this up there. We, J-sus, you, and I and everyother living breathing person were spiritually born before the earth was created. That make J-sus our brother. Because J-sus was the first spirit created, H- is our elder brother.

You believe differently. I am fine with that, so long as you are fine with my beliefs (Article of Faith number 11).

Third: G-d the F-ther, during the pre-existence proposed a plan: the great plan of happiness (see: Mormon.org - Home ). H- asked who would execute this plan. Two voices came forward. One insisted he receive all the glory in place of the F-ther and the other voice said the glory will remain with G-d and that each person involved would work his or her way to salvation through it. This second voice is J-sus. The L-rd agreed with H-m and rejected the first voice: lucifer.

J-sus went forward and the earth was created and eventually we were born. As G-d's executor, H- created the physical earth in the name of G-d the F-ther and paid our way through H-s sacrifice.

G-d the F-ther created our spirits in the pre-existance. J-sus set the process in motion (whatever it was) that lead to the creation of our bodies. J-sus is the physical creator of everything the F-ther planned and envisioned in the great plan of happiness.

To conclude, I showed you how Latter-day Saints believe J-sus is our spiritual brother and our G-d as the person who created the earth in the name of G-d. How do we justify this? Modern revelation. I was very upset with your indirect jibes at modern prophesy, because these jibes were attacks at the core of our beliefs. We need men like Joseph Smith and Thomas S. Monson, because the exact nature of G-d and his S-n J-sus Chr-st is so chaotic without them.

This and other reasons explain why we have modern scripture.

My explanation is simple. If you want more, please do your research.

[aj4u]

If the Father calls Jesus God, who are we to say He is our brother?

[the Ogre]

If the Father calls Jesus God, who are we to say He is our brother?

The F-ther does not call J-sus G-d. H- calls J-sus S-n. Edited May 18, 2009 by the Ogre

[bytor2112]

This is the problem I am having. First born doesn't mean a physical birth or even the fact that someone was born first. It is a term to mean position. For instance, when Jacob and Essau were born Essau was born first but Jacob was considered the first born. Jesus is not God's creation. Jesus is God's who is a Spirit becomming flesh throught the virgin birth of Mary. Emmanuel means God with us. Only Satan would people believe that Jesus isn't God.

Jesus Christ is indeed the First borne of the Father and God the Father is indeed the Father of his spirit. Jesus Christ....Jehovah of the Old Testament is indeed God....but not God the Father. Christ prayed to the "Father", because.....God the Father is literally his Father.

[bytor2112]

Understanding who God and Christ truly are is so much easier to understand thanks to the eye witness account of the Prophet of the Restoration:

"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" - Joseph Smith

[Justice]

aj4u,

Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ.

He saw and spoke with 2 distinct personages. The many modern revelations that have been given through modern prophets tell us emphatically the nature of GOd and His relationship to His Son.

We are not using the words of the Bible alone. If we did, then no doubt we would simply have another opinion to go along with the other 1,000 opinions of what they mean in the modern Christian world.

Here is what you're not getting, and what you must address in your mind. We have modern scripture. We have more scripture witnesses that Jesus is the Christ than just the Bible. We can use those other scriptures to more fully understand the Bible.

Are you interested in another testament of Jesus Christ? Are you interested in another book of scripture that will help you understand the Bible better?

[Justice]

bytor, I was typing mine before I read yours.

GMTA.