Believe, Works, and Faith

[the Ogre]

I AM TRYING TO STUDY SCRIPTURES AND ALL I CAN FIND ON LDS DOCTRINE AND IAM GETTING VERY CONFUSED. THE DOCTRINE DOESN'T SEEM TO LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. From what I can tell you don't believe that Jesus is the Father but you believe He is God but the book of Mormon says that Christ was the God and father of all things. Jesus in those verses says He is the "Father and the Son." And you tell me that Adam is not the God of flesh and bone you speak of but Brigham Young says he is in the journal of discourse vol. 1 pg 5 v 50. Will someone tell what this confusion is about? He is speaking of an Adam-God doctrine that totally clashes with the Bible and the Scriptures explanation of who God is. The Bible Scriptures say that God existed before the world began Jn. 17:5 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Jesus also exsisted before the World began JN 1:1,2,3,10 and Co.1:15-17. God the Son spoke the worlds into existence: Jn. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jesus is Savior of our immortal soul Jn: 3:16 He is our interceding priest who offered Himself a sacrifice for us! He will speak the words that will raise us from the dead 1Thes 4:13-18 Jun 5:25 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He is the only Judge we must face after this life: Jn 5:22 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Savation is only and only by grace through faith in Jesus. Every other endeavour will fail. It is a gift and cannot possible be earned or worked for according to the Bible Ep 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. I am understanding from Justice that salvation by grace must be coupled with works (Laws and ordinances and a legalistic observance and requirements so in the end salvation is not by grace, but connected to human effort invoving baptism, enduring til the end in keeping the commandments. If we can be saved that way, we don't need grace, and we could boast. This makes the difference on whether or not one gets eternal life.

And I thought we were making progress. I guess not.

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps progress only comes when he faces the same testimony as Saul did on the road to Damascus....

[aj4u]

Perhaps progress only comes when he faces the same testimony as Saul did on the road to Damascus....

I welcome being blinded crippled and you name it than go the wrong way. Honestly, I would, I am not kidden. I couldn't be more serious about this. I don't want to go the wrong direction, and I don't want any going the wrong way on this forum, but I am searching stuff out, and I could never make a decision without obeying the Scriptures to try the spirit of all you say and all I read and hear from the Lord about how I should react about all that is taking place here. When I make a decision it is informed and solid as an oak! The Lord hasn't shown me that I am choosing poorly thus far. There is something terribly wrong about the way one of us is hearing or the Lord has stopped speaking or one of us is hardening our hearts. In the mean time, I am going to continue studying LDS doctrine to see if this can line up and make any spiritual sense to me. I have shown you reasons it doesn't line up to me, but I haven't been given any answers or you haven't explained anything except telling me that I am like Saul. But I don't believe I am. I think I am searching and bringing myself and others challenges with the word:disclaimer: Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

. . . but I haven't been given any answers or you haven't explained anything except telling me that I am like Saul . . .

Nah, it's simpler than that, you refuse to pay attention, so why should anyone bother anymore.

[aj4u]

Nah, it's simpler than that, you refuse to pay attention, so why should anyone bother anymore.

You are patronizing me now. Jesus in the book of Mormon says He is the "Father and the Son." On the forum I am told that Adam is not the God of flesh and bone you speak of but Brigham Young says he is in the journal of discourse vol. 1 pg 5 v 50. I ask will someone tell what this confusion is about? I understand this to be speaking of an Adam-God doctrine that totally clashes with the Bible and the Scriptures explanation of who God is but you say it doesn't clash. I have been trying to explain to Justice that Salvation is only by grace through faith in Jesus. Bro Rudick understood what I was trying to say and explained it, but I don't think he agrees. I said we are are saved from eternal death by grace through faith and that every other endeavour will fail. The Bible is explicitly clear that it is a gift and cannot possible be earned or worked for according what is written Ep 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. I am understanding from Justice and others that salvation by grace must be coupled with works (Laws and ordinances and a legalistic observance and requirements so in the end salvation is not really by grace, but connected to human effort invoving baptism, enduring til the end in keeping the commandments. If we can be saved that way, we don't need grace, and we could boast. This makes the difference on whether or not one gets eternal life. Can anyone one see this besides me?:eek:You don't even seem to agree with the book of Mormon, and you tell me I am not paying attention. Edited May 19, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

I AM TRYING TO STUDY SCRIPTURES AND ALL I CAN FIND ON LDS DOCTRINE AND IAM GETTING VERY CONFUSED. THE DOCTRINE DOESN'T SEEM TO LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. From what I can tell you don't believe that Jesus is the Father. . .

Not meaning yo confuse you but:D

Yeah.

Jesus is our father by adoption as I have before explained.

He is the Father also by virtue of the Creation.

Because without Him was not anything that was made, made.

He is the Father because He is the Author and the Finisher of our Faith.

He is our God and Savior.

He is Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ our Redeemer of the New.

What do you want:confused:

Bro. Rudick

Bro. Rudick

[prospectmom]

wait a minute....... aj4u you are where you are in this journey called life and I can accept that you disagree with what I believe and I can respect you for believing what you do.... Can't that be enough for folks for now???????? Enlightenment dosen't come by attacks but by prayer, study and mostly time....Putting a non member down for what he believes is not good..... state you case and agree to disagree...... we are all after the same thing and really aj4u will be getting exactly what he believes.... we just know it could be so much more .....

[Justice]

What do we have to compare modern revelation to, and how can we confirm that it is from God? Some recommend prayer and then listening for an answer.

Very good. It is first important to know and understand prayer and how it works. Maybe we can talk about that later.

G-d answers individual prayer. I believe that, but what if you can see clashes between modern revelation and the Bible?

The important thing to keep in mind here is that it seems to clash with "your interpretation of the Bible."

What would it take to show you that an understanding you have about a certain Bible principle is wrong? Think about it hard. Can you get it from the Bible?

It seems pointless to pray and ask God if the clash is true or what clashes with the Bible.

Exactly. This is why prayer must be understood, and exactly how answers come.

You would have to already believe it were to ask and get a confirmation. When the confirmation comes, how do you know that it can be trusted as well.

Remember, again, we are talking about your interpretation. If you believe your interpretation is flawless and perfect then it is impossible to receive revelation that your interpretation is wrong. We must be meek and humble, that includes being willing to submit our views to the truth. Once we are willing to give up our beliefs for the truth, then He can teach us.

Satan can give false signs and confirmations especially if it goes contrary to the ancient written word.

Satan can do a great many things, but duplicating the confirmation of the Holy Ghost is one thing we are promised he cannot do. This is a big part to learning how to pray.

Try to understand I am not trying to give you a hard time. I have been deceived and I am careful to obey Scripture by not believing every Spirit but try them to see if they be really from God.

If you don't believe you're lacking, then there can be no revelation to reveal your lack.

Make sense?

James 1:

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Let's start with this:

Read this scripture:

John 21:

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Decide what it means. I think it means the Bible does not contain all of Jesus' words or works. If you think it means that too, then ask God:

I see where the Book of John states that there are more words of Jesus Christ than what are in the Bible. Is that true? Are there more words of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, that are available to me, like the scripture says?

I bet you will get a peaceful confirmation, that you cannot give yourself, and then you will KNOW there are more words of Christ available. Then, your curiosity will be peaked to find them. Then come here tomorrow looking for more words of Christ, trusting that when you find them, you will be able to pray about them and get the same kind of answer.

[Justice]

Adam-God doctrine

Aj4u?

Where are you going to get your information? What anti-Mormon site did you find?

[prospectmom]

P.S. l sorry for jumping in but I have been following this thread for awhile.

[Justice]

wait a minute....... aj4u you are where you are in this journey called life and I can accept that you disagree with what I believe and I can respect you for believing what you do.... Can't that be enough for folks for now???????? Enlightenment dosen't come by attacks but by prayer, study and mostly time....Putting a non member down for what he believes is not good..... state you case and agree to disagree...... we are all after the same thing and really aj4u will be getting exactly what he believes.... we just know it could be so much more .....

There is no reason for me to give up until he does.

Will it yield fruit? Probably not. But, it certainly won't if I give up.

[aj4u]

I did not learn from the old school of the Nicene Creed who Jesus is. I learned from prayer and studying Scripture. I don't trust any organization anymore until I can verify they line up with Scripture in the essentials. I can tolerate the nonessentials. Jesus according to the Scriptures is of the same substance of the Father yet he is distinct in being the person of God the Son. I don't understand this, but I wasn't commanded too. No prophet or human being at any level understands how this possible. That is why He is God. God says He is the first and the last and Jesus says He is that too. Jesus is spiritual and physical Creator of all things according to the Bible, and God says there was no God before me nor shall there be any after me. Does that not out right clash with as man is God once was and as God is man may become? I am just supposed to brush all this stuff under the rug and pretend it is not a problem? Please don't patronize me for asking good questions that you don't have answers for!

[JohnnyRudick]

. . . And you tell me that Adam is not the God of flesh and bone you speak of but Brigham Young says he is in the journal of discourse vol. 1 pg 5 v 50. Will someone tell what this confusion is about? . . .

Did tell ya:wacko:

We all told ya and you still refuse to hear.

"2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant. . ."

Say it ain't so:o:cry:

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

wait a minute....... aj4u you are where you are in this journey called life and I can accept that you disagree with what I believe and I can respect you for believing what you do.... Can't that be enough for folks for now???????? Enlightenment dosen't come by attacks but by prayer, study and mostly time....Putting a non member down for what he believes is not good..... state you case and agree to disagree...... we are all after the same thing and really aj4u will be getting exactly what he believes.... we just know it could be so much more .....

I really appreciate your comments. I honestly am not wanting to attack anyone. I am asking questions and searching and reading cause they told me too and now I see conflicting information that I can't answer so they tell me I need an experience like Saul to see. If anyone has been the most convincing to me its been you. I see sincerity and patience.

[Justice]

aj4u, if you are happy with your beliefs, and don't want more of Christ's words that help remedy false notions about God and Christ, then no one can force you.

We have tried to show you how things you say can be interpreted other ways. It is your choice to reject them.

But, I'm telling you, there is a whole world of truth out there that you are missing because you will not open your heart.

Your mistake is that since you've been fooled once, you seem to think you are not being fooled now.

[aj4u]

Did tell ya:wacko:

We all told ya and you still refuse to hear.

"2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant. . ."

Say it ain't so:o:cry:

Bro. Rudick

Let's look at it in context: 2 Peter 3

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[JohnnyRudick]

I did not learn from the old school of the Nicene Creed who Jesus is. I learned from prayer and studying Scripture. I don't trust any organization anymore until I can verify they line up with Scripture in the essentials. I can tolerate the nonessentials. Jesus according to the Scriptures is of the same substance of the Father yet he is distinct in being the person of God the Son. I don't understand this, but I wasn't commanded too. No prophet or human being at any level understands how this possible. That is why He is God. God says He is the first and the last and Jesus says He is that too. Jesus is spiritual and physical Creator of all things according to the Bible, and God says there was no God before me nor shall there be any after me. Does that not out right clash with as man is God once was and as God is man may become? I am just supposed to brush all this stuff under the rug and pretend it is not a problem? Please don't patronize me for asking good questions that you don't have answers for!

I sure am glad Justice has a lot more patience then I have.

He has a lot to teach me.

Ya know aj4u, Jehovah was speaking to Isaiah here in very grandiose ways which is right and is making a very good point.

Yet, in another place He speaks through His Servant David

Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he

judgeth among the gods.

Psalm 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the

persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalm 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the

afflicted and needy.

Psalm 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand

of the wicked.

Psalm 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they

walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of

course.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are

children of the most High.

I know/

You think you know what that means because you make it match up to your One substance godhead.

But just step back and go over what we have presented to you.

Pray about it and set aside your preconceived notions and just go with what the Scripture says.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Let's look at it in context: 2 Peter 3

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Not my intention to use it in context.

I was just using the phrase as it seemed that . . .

Well, anyways:lol:

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Not meaning yo confuse you but:D

Yeah.

Jesus is our father by adoption as I have before explained.

He is the Father also by virtue of the Creation.

Because without Him was not anything that was made, made.

He is the Father because He is the Author and the Finisher of our Faith.

He is our God and Savior.

He is Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ our Redeemer of the New.

What do you want:confused:

Bro. Rudick

Bro. Rudick

I don't disagree with this, but I thought the others believe differently than this. What about the other questions I had? You're bearly scratching the surface of clashing I see in the other areas. I am going to call it a night. Much study is a weariness to the flesh:banghead:

[prospectmom]

Justice are you serious

There is no reason for me to give up until he does.[/

How sad for you

aj4u my post wasn't aimed at you more towards others except for the agreeing to disagree.... I find the butting heads kind of useless and going nowhere.... look for common ground and just agree to disagree on the rest........ You will only believe what you are willing to and to argue with these guys will get you nowhere.... saying all of this out of concern and just plain caring....

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't disagree with this, but I thought the others believe differently than this. What about the other questions I had? You're bearly scratching the surface of clashing I see in the other areas. . .

Huh:confused:

Well, we are not necessary all hitched in a yoke neck to neck but. . .

Nite.

Bro. Rudick

[Justice]

Justice are you serious

There is no reason for me to give up until he does.[/

How sad for you

aj4u my post wasn't aimed at you more towards others except for the agreeing to disagree.... I find the butting heads kind of useless and going nowhere.... look for common ground and just agree to disagree on the rest........ You will only believe what you are willing to and to argue with these guys will get you nowhere.... saying all of this out of concern and just plain caring....

I am serious. Sometimes it takes more effort. I once vistied a family for 3 years before they softened enough to come to church. What would have happened if I gave up after 1 month or 1 year?

We can offer good advice with good intentions because we've all been there. We really do know how far-fetched the restored Gospel sounds... God and Jesus Christ appearing to man in 1820? Most of modern Christianity sees this as a direct contradiction to the way the Bible says it's going to happen in the last days.

But, it was no different when Christ came in the flesh. Those that waited for a Messiah, those of God's people, didn't even see Him because they felt it was going to happen a different way. Yet, a few wise men traveled from afar just to see Him and pay Him tribute.

All we can do is try. I don't know how many pages of posts is too many. But, I'm sincere in wanting to help, so I feel I have nothing to fear.

[Hemidakota]

page 30? http://i.azjmp.com/0SbSY

[the Ogre]

Please don't patronize me for asking good questions that you don't have answers for!

OR that we do and you still refuse to allow that we believe differently.

"Oh, those silly mormons . . . they are deluded by their false prophets and their false ideas about G-d . . . ONLY THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF G-D . . . I should go preach what I feel, what is my opinion, ignoring their beliefs, ridiculing their doctrines until all 13million of them concede . . . after all they, and their false doctrines, their false Chr-st, are only lying to the world and who can stand liars and deceivers."

Some of the questions you are now asking are beginning to sound as if you are quoting the Tanners. Just another one of thousands who think Latter-day Saints are a bunch of brainwashed cultists.

[the Ogre]

page 30? http://i.azjmp.com/0SbSY

Soon to be 31, I'm sure.