When Did Terri Shiavo Die?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 3 2005, 08:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 3 2005, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Apr 2 2005, 01:56 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 2 2005, 12:48 AM

Since there is one school of religious thinking that holds that God exists outside of time (the Book of Mormon says yes; the Book of Abraham says no), I don't see any great problem with this. I don't think of a day a person spends on earth as a day spent outside of eternity; from an eternal perspective, everything happens simultaneously. So I don't think "Let that poor brain-damaged person get out of that body and into the eternities." The most important part of her spirit is probably already there.

I agree, but could you give me some references in the BofM and Abraham which don't agree, so I can read that for myself?

Dang, you're up late on a Friday night. Give me a minute and I'll get the references.

(a few minutes later)

Alma 40:8 --

"Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men."

Abraham 3:4 --

"And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

To summarize and contrast: Alma says all of time is "as one day" with God. Abraham says a thousand years on earth is a year to the Lord. Alma says time is measured only to man, not God. Abraham says time is measured ("reckoned") to God, but that His time moves much more slowly than man's.

The New Testament seems more consistent with the Book of Mormon version. See 2 Peter 3:8 --

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

That is, 1 earth day = 1,000 divine years and 1,000 earth years = 1 divine day. But if 1 divine day = 1,000 earth years, 1 earth day can't equal 1,000 divine years. The only way to escape the mathematical impossibility is to understand that to God, all time has the same value, so that 1,000 divine years has the same value as 1 divine day. In other words, time is measured only to man. Abraham got it wrong.

What if the statement : time is measured only to man ~

actually means that only man is limited in time ~ (on this earth)?

Wouldn't that reconcile the statements?

BTW ~ thanks for these references! (I am always up late, I have teen agers!)

Maybe, but then you still have the "all is as one day unto God" passage. Not "a thousand years is as one day", but "all" is as one day.

[Amillia]

TheProudDuck,Apr 3 2005, 11:17 AM] Dang, you're up late on a Friday night. Give me a minute and I'll get the references.

(a few minutes later)

Alma 40:8 --

"Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men."

Abraham 3:4 --

"And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

To summarize and contrast: Alma says all of time is "as one day" with God. Abraham says a thousand years on earth is a year to the Lord. Alma says time is measured only to man, not God. Abraham says time is measured ("reckoned") to God, but that His time moves much more slowly than man's.

The New Testament seems more consistent with the Book of Mormon version. See 2 Peter 3:8 --

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

That is, 1 earth day = 1,000 divine years and 1,000 earth years = 1 divine day. But if 1 divine day = 1,000 earth years, 1 earth day can't equal 1,000 divine years. The only way to escape the mathematical impossibility is to understand that to God, all time has the same value, so that 1,000 divine years has the same value as 1 divine day. In other words, time is measured only to man. Abraham got it wrong.

What if the statement : time is measured only to man ~

actually means that only man is limited in time ~ (on this earth)?

Wouldn't that reconcile the statements?

BTW ~ thanks for these references! (I am always up late, I have teen agers!)

Maybe, but then you still have the "all is as one day unto God" passage. Not "a thousand years is as one day", but "all" is as one day.

But a day is just a symbol of measurement. It isn't literal or finite as morning and night ~ it is also the beginning and end ~ of a time for accomplishing tasks at hand.

The Lord stated that 'all' would see Him in 'that' day. When you consider that the sun will rise in the east all over the earth at a different time ~ all will not see Him at the same 'time' but in the same day! or their day ~

Read the scripture in D&C 88:

51 Behold, I will liken these kingdoms unto a man having a field, and he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field.

52 And he said unto the first: Go ye and labor in the field, and in the first hour I will come unto you, and ye shall behold the joy of my countenance.

53 And he said unto the second: Go ye also into the field, and in the second hour I will visit you with the joy of my countenance.

54 And also unto the third, saying: I will visit you;

55 And unto the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

56 And the lord of the field went unto the first in the first hour, and tarried with him all that hour, and he was made glad with the light of the countenance of his lord.

57 And then he withdrew from the first that he might visit the second also, and the third, and the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

58 And thus they all received the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season—

59 Beginning at the first, and so on unto the last, and from the last unto the first, and from the first unto the last;

60 Every man in his own aorder, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified.

61 Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof—every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.

The meausrement of time is relavant to circumstances and can mean many different things.

I can state ~ that in 'my day' I did thus and so ~ and I am not speaking of Friday ~ I am speaking of my time of life~

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Amillia,

The Alma scripture specifically says that time is measured "only" to man. The natural meaning of that is that time is measured to man, and no one else, and therefore, not to God. That is the only way the 2 Peter scripture can make any sense: If one day to the Lord is simultaneously the same as 1,000 of man's years, and also simultaneously th same as 1/365,000 of man's years, the only way you can get around this mathematical impossibility is to conclude that God does not measure time, and that he experiences all time simultaneously.

[Setheus]

You know what would be funny? If a mod locked this topic. Then we'd all know when it died.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:53 AM

This link is especially disturbing. Terri doesn't appear to be in a PVS at all. She sounds like a disabled daughter trying the only way she can to communicate with her father. To imagine what she could have done IF she has been granted the rehab that she was entitled to. As with some brain injuries and having a trache especially, speech rehab is REQUIRED to be able to eat on your own and speak. Terri was very much alive as you can see from this movie.

http://www.apfn.org/Movies/ConversationWithTerri.wmv

That is sad. I'm glad she is in a better place now.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:08 AM

To start, take a closer look at George P. Felos, Attorney for Michael Schiavo

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:KsZlH...sociation&hl=en

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/bstock/20.../bs_0329p.shtml

To start look who is putting this out. I always consider the source before I take anything they say seriously. This one I won't take seriously...

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

The wrong thing was done to Terri, and much fault remains to be told.

We can no longer save her that is true. What we can do is punish those who corrupt the system. We can shake the sewer pipes where they reside, so that the rats are required to run.

Terri didn't want to die and she proved that by hanging on for 13 days. It was only after her parents got their plea to be able to reinsert Terri's feeding tube turned down for the last time that she passed on. I am also happy that she is out of her 15 year misery, being under the total control of that monster Michael.

I don't think that I personally could survive for 13 days without water. I know for certain that I would never want that done to me or anyone in my family either. Starvation is inhumane and cruel.

Terri is gone, but the fight for change carries on.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 3 2005, 12:46 PM

Amillia,

The Alma scripture specifically says that time is measured "only" to man.  The natural meaning of that is that time is measured to man, and no one else, and therefore, not to God.  That is the only way the 2 Peter scripture can make any sense:  If one day to the Lord is simultaneously the same as 1,000 of man's years, and also simultaneously th same as 1/365,000 of man's years, the only way you can get around this mathematical impossibility is to conclude that God does not measure time, and that he experiences all time simultaneously.

He does experience all time simultaneously. And it is for this reason that one cannot read and understand the scriptures correctly unless they take time out of them.

Try reading the scriptures without past/present/future verbs. IOW IS, ARE, WAS, BEING, BEEN must all be interchangable ~ there is no past, present or future, ~ no time~ as we know it.

When discussing God's way of seeing things and how it is masked in a mystery, you have to be very clever, or receive revelation.

So I say again ~ the actual meaning of day isn't as one might expect ~

Mark 4: 11

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the amystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in bparables•:

Rom. 11: 25

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own aconceits•; that bblindness• in part is happened to Israel, until the cfulness of the dGentiles be come in.

Rom. 16: 25

25 Now to him that is of power to astablish• you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the bmystery•, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Cor. 2: 7

7 But we speak the awisdom of God in a bmystery, even the hidden cwisdom•, which God dordained• before the world unto our glory:

1 Cor. 15: 51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all asleep•, but we shall all be bchanged•,

Eph. 1: 9

9 Having made known unto us the amystery• of his bwill, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph. 3: 3

3 How that by revelation he made aknown• unto me the mystery; (as I bwrote afore in few words,

Eph. 3: 4

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the amystery• of Christ)

Eph. 3: 9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the amystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who bcreated all things by cJesus Christ:

Eph. 5: 32

32 This is a great amystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph. 6: 19

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the amystery of the gospel,

Col. 1: 26

26 Even the amystery• which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made bmanifest• to his saints:

Col. 1: 27

27 To whom God would make aknown• what is the briches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col. 2: 2

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of aunderstanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, band• of the Father, and of Christ;

Col. 4: 3

3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a adoor• of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Amillia: I appreciate your posting of those scriptures. Many Mormons aren't entirely comfortable with the concept of "mysteries"; they're often considered to be too Catholic or the like. We like to think that because we have continuing revelation, we have all the details of the things of eternity wrapped up in nice bundles -- but not only do we not have all the facts, but our finite minds simply aren't capable of understanding some eternal things except in symbolism and metaphors.

If anything, recognizing that some of the things of God are mysteries increases my appreciation of God's infinite nature and majesty.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 3 2005, 08:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 3 2005, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

The wrong thing was done to Terri, and much fault remains to be told.

We can no longer save her that is true. What we can do is punish those who corrupt the system. We can shake the sewer pipes where they reside, so that the rats are required to run.

Terri didn't want to die and she proved that by hanging on for 13 days. It was only after her parents got their plea to be able to reinsert Terri's feeding tube turned down for the last time that she passed on. I am also happy that she is out of her 15 year misery, being under the total control of that monster Michael.

I don't think that I personally could survive for 13 days without water. I know for certain that I would never want that done to me or anyone in my family either. Starvation is inhumane and cruel.

Terri is gone, but the fight for change carries on.

We all make bad decisions and suffer many times other's suffer the consequences ~ becareful how diligently you seek justice against others ~ you may just get it back in your own life 10 fold ~

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 4 2005, 10:57 AM

Amillia:  I appreciate your posting of those scriptures.  Many Mormons aren't entirely comfortable with the concept of "mysteries"; they're often considered to be too Catholic or the like.  We like to think that because we have continuing revelation, we have all the details of the things of eternity wrapped up in nice bundles -- but not only do we not have all the facts, but our finite minds simply aren't capable of understanding some eternal things except in symbolism and metaphors. 

If anything, recognizing that some of the things of God are mysteries increases my appreciation of God's infinite nature and majesty.

Yeah, God is awesome! And we are to search, ponder and pray ~

I love these two scriptures:

1 Ne. 10: 19

19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Jacob 4: 8

8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 4 2005, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 4 2005, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

The wrong thing was done to Terri, and much fault remains to be told.

We can no longer save her that is true. What we can do is punish those who corrupt the system. We can shake the sewer pipes where they reside, so that the rats are required to run.

Terri didn't want to die and she proved that by hanging on for 13 days. It was only after her parents got their plea to be able to reinsert Terri's feeding tube turned down for the last time that she passed on. I am also happy that she is out of her 15 year misery, being under the total control of that monster Michael.

I don't think that I personally could survive for 13 days without water. I know for certain that I would never want that done to me or anyone in my family either. Starvation is inhumane and cruel.

Terri is gone, but the fight for change carries on.

We all make bad decisions and suffer many times other's suffer the consequences ~ becareful how diligently you seek justice against others ~ you may just get it back in your own life 10 fold ~

Thanks for the warning dear but it isn't I who will seek the justice here, hopefully it will be the justice system.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 4 2005, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 4 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 4 2005, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

The wrong thing was done to Terri, and much fault remains to be told.

We can no longer save her that is true. What we can do is punish those who corrupt the system. We can shake the sewer pipes where they reside, so that the rats are required to run.

Terri didn't want to die and she proved that by hanging on for 13 days. It was only after her parents got their plea to be able to reinsert Terri's feeding tube turned down for the last time that she passed on. I am also happy that she is out of her 15 year misery, being under the total control of that monster Michael.

I don't think that I personally could survive for 13 days without water. I know for certain that I would never want that done to me or anyone in my family either. Starvation is inhumane and cruel.

Terri is gone, but the fight for change carries on.

We all make bad decisions and suffer many times other's suffer the consequences ~ becareful how diligently you seek justice against others ~ you may just get it back in your own life 10 fold ~

Thanks for the warning dear but it isn't I who will seek the justice here, hopefully it will be the justice system.

It is you who is putting up links to try and get a judge removed ~ is it not? Or did I just read something into your post with that link?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 4 2005, 10:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 4 2005, 10:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 4 2005, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 4 2005, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

The wrong thing was done to Terri, and much fault remains to be told.

We can no longer save her that is true. What we can do is punish those who corrupt the system. We can shake the sewer pipes where they reside, so that the rats are required to run.

Terri didn't want to die and she proved that by hanging on for 13 days. It was only after her parents got their plea to be able to reinsert Terri's feeding tube turned down for the last time that she passed on. I am also happy that she is out of her 15 year misery, being under the total control of that monster Michael.

I don't think that I personally could survive for 13 days without water. I know for certain that I would never want that done to me or anyone in my family either. Starvation is inhumane and cruel.

Terri is gone, but the fight for change carries on.

We all make bad decisions and suffer many times other's suffer the consequences ~ becareful how diligently you seek justice against others ~ you may just get it back in your own life 10 fold ~

Thanks for the warning dear but it isn't I who will seek the justice here, hopefully it will be the justice system.

It is you who is putting up links to try and get a judge removed ~ is it not? Or did I just read something into your post with that link?

As IF I have that power all by myself.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 4 2005, 11:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 4 2005, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 4 2005, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 4 2005, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 4 2005, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 04:32 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 09:11 AM

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

I wonder why you are wasting so much of your time and energy trying to find faults here. Terri is gone and thankfully, for her sake.....

The wrong thing was done to Terri, and much fault remains to be told.

We can no longer save her that is true. What we can do is punish those who corrupt the system. We can shake the sewer pipes where they reside, so that the rats are required to run.

Terri didn't want to die and she proved that by hanging on for 13 days. It was only after her parents got their plea to be able to reinsert Terri's feeding tube turned down for the last time that she passed on. I am also happy that she is out of her 15 year misery, being under the total control of that monster Michael.

I don't think that I personally could survive for 13 days without water. I know for certain that I would never want that done to me or anyone in my family either. Starvation is inhumane and cruel.

Terri is gone, but the fight for change carries on.

We all make bad decisions and suffer many times other's suffer the consequences ~ becareful how diligently you seek justice against others ~ you may just get it back in your own life 10 fold ~

Thanks for the warning dear but it isn't I who will seek the justice here, hopefully it will be the justice system.

It is you who is putting up links to try and get a judge removed ~ is it not? Or did I just read something into your post with that link?

As IF I have that power all by myself.

Haven't you ever heard the stories that go along with the idea of "THE POWER OF ONE?

[StrawberryFields]

For those who have eyes but fail to see...

April 05, 2005

The Whole Truth About Terri Schiavo

Kelly Holman

Numerous state and federal courts had the opportunity to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case, but none did. An overwhelming majority of Americans agreed with the decision. However, in all I've read about the situation, I've never seen a comprehensive list of the reasons why her death was wrong, and I wonder if the judges involved were aware of any at all. Judge Greer denied several court motions without hearing any evidence or arguments. Consequently, there may be nobody in power who knows all the facts.

After Terri's heart attack, Michael Schiavo brought a successful lawsuit for medical malpractice, testifying that he planned to care for his wife as long as necessary, and was awarded over one million dollars based on her long life expectancy. Upon winning the lawsuit, Michael posted a Å¥o Not Resuscitate¡¦order and refused to provide any rehabilitation whatsoever. When a nurse put a washcloth in her hand to prevent muscle contractures, he insisted that it be removed. He even denied medical treatment for illness unrelated to her brain damage, such as antibiotics to fight infection. Terri was suffering from tooth decay and skin ulcers which could easily have been prevented by basic hygiene care.

Michael didn't remember his wife's wish to die until seven years after her heart attack, by which time he was living with another woman who has now borne him two children. His claimed devotion to Terri's desires is belied by callous disregard for her Catholic beliefs. Of course, church teaching was unequivocally opposed to removing her feeding tube. He refused to allow her communion, (although she did receive the sacrament at the very end of her life) denied her a Catholic funeral, and cremated her despite her family's protests. As a final slap in the face, Michael barred Terri's family from her room when she finally passed; they were allowed only a 15-minute visit the day before. To think he was sensitive to Terri's wishes defies imagination.

Michael's claims to know what his wife wanted are also suspect. A high school friend of Terri's testified that after seeing a movie about a comatose woman, she expressed the opinion that such a patient should not be removed from a respirator. A former girlfriend of Michael testified that soon after the injury, he said they had never spoken about end-of-life issues, as they were only in their twenties. On the other hand, the only corroboration of Michaels claim that Terri would have wanted to die is from two of his family members.

There are rumors of marital problems before Terri's disability, and bone scans show evidence of unexplained trauma. It is quite possible that Terri's condition was caused by domestic abuse, even that her husband failed in an attempt to murder her and has now finished the job legally. During the recent controversy, the Florida Department of Child and Family Services was investigating allegations of abuse, neglect and exploitation by Michael Schiavo. They requested a delay of 60 days in the removal of her feeding tube, to allow for a full investigation, but it was denied.

At least one of Terri's early caregivers submitted an affidavit saying that Terri was often distressed or upset after Michael's visits. On more than one occasion, she found insulin syringes in the wastebasket and discovered that Terri's blood sugar was dangerously low, even undetectable. During this time, Michael complained unscrupulously to nurses and assistants that Terri wasn't dying as quickly as he wanted her to.

Correctly diagnosing PVS (Permanent Vegetative State) requires long periods of time spent with a patient over weeks or even months, but the doctors testifying in favor of Michael Schiavo spent less than one hour each with Terri. Michael refused to allow MRI or PET scans, which would have revealed much more about the extent of her brain damage. Countless neurologists, some independent and others recruited by Terri's parents, have submitted affidavits stating that her examination was incomplete and she should be reevaluated. Despite the claim that she was unconscious, she did a great number of things that cannot possibly all be mere reflexes, such as following objects with her eyes and making facial expressions and sounds at appropriate times. Indeed, when Terri was told of her impending court-ordered murder, she loudly and emphatically attempted to speak. Michael has agreed to allow an autopsy after her death, but by now, her mental condition is conveniently irrelevant.

The star medical witness on the side of death is Dr. Ronald Cranford, who is recognized as an expert in PVS cases. Unfortunately for Terri, he believes that such patients have no legal rights and has advocated death by starvation and dehydration for several other disabled people. Although expert witnesses in court cases are supposed to be unbiased, Dr. Cranford obviously is not.

The actions of protesters who attempted to bring water to Terri were not merely symbolic. She was able to swallow her saliva and could have been spoon-fed. However, Michael insisted that she be fed only through a tube, and in his decision, Judge Greer not only ordered the feeding tube removed, but deprived her of any food or water by natural means. No law in any state allows a judge to do this!

Most importantly, it is medical fact that death by starvation and dehydration is excruciating. To quote Wesley Smith in his book Forced Exit, ŵheir skin cracks, their tongue cracks, their lips crack. They may have nosebleeds because of the drying of the mucous membranes, and heaving and vomiting might ensue because of the drying out of the stomach lining. They feel the pangs of hunger and thirst. Imagine going one day without a glass of water! . . . It is an extremely agonizing death." Ordinarily, cool cloths, ice chips, and lip balm are used when a patient is subjected to this torture, but Terri was forbidden even such minor comforts. George Felos' claim that Terri looked ÅÃeautiful¡¦and ÅÑeaceful¡¦while dying was obviously a lie.

Terri was not dying or even unhealthy, other than the previously mentioned effects of neglect. She was mentally disabled, like thousands of other American citizens, and was receiving no medical treatment, other than artificial feeding. Her parents wanted only to care for and rehabilitate her. Considering all the facts of the case, no reasonable person could believe that Terri's death was justified. Were all the judges in favor of this complete imbeciles? Were they possessed by some demonic spirit of death? Did some inane legal statute prevent the Schindlers' lawyers from presenting all this important information in their appeals?

Now that Terri is gone, I pray that the majority of Americans who favored her death will learn the truth of what they condoned and think more clearly the next time. Although I take comfort in the knowledge that Michael Schiavo will someday face God, I pray that the facts I've enumerated will catch up with him and he will meet justice on this earth. It is the only noble thing we can do in Terri's memory. May God grant peace to her soul.

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/freedomwr...n_20050405.html (link to above post)

There is much more but as the majority of you want this subject to just go away, I felt that this is just mild enough not to cause another huge debate.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 08:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 08:58 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 07:35 AM

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate.

Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die?

Did she die in 1990?

Did she die March 31, 2005?

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005.

Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us.

Amillia,

Thank you for your reply.

I believe the same thing that you do about a person dies when Heavenly Father takes their spirit.

I tend to believe that we don't actually die until our hearts stop beating.

You take someone who has a near death experience, and for a time, their spirit leaves their body right?

Yes, but are they dead for real? What about Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead or brought back by the Lord as in NDE?

It really is God's territory isn't it? I think there are some things we just shouldn't have any control over, yet we think we are wise enough to give and take life, even if it isn't real life we are giving.

It is all part of our testing. We are given knowledge, but with all of our getting of this knowledge, are we getting understanding? I really don't think we are doing too well in that catagory.

I think we have to have courage to change what we can, serenity to accept the things we cannot change and wisdom to know the difference. I think wisdom is both knowledge and the use of it to the benefit, not damage, of all people.

However, agency of man, keeps all the world swirling around in some pretty questionable decisions. We all do stupid things, we all make bad decisions, and sometimes we all are fooled into thinking we know better than someone else how it should be done.

But sometimes we can look back upon those times and see that we really didn't know better.

It really is God's territory isn't it? I think there are some things we just shouldn't have any control over, yet we think we are wise enough to give and take life, even if it isn't real life we are giving.

Amillia, may I assume then that you are against capital punishment--since we ought not think of ourselves "wise enough to give and take life"?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Cal,

I submit there's a difference between knowingly taking a person's life as a punishment for murder, and taking a person's life because we don't believe it's worth living. In the former case, we're not making a judgment that the murdere's life is worth nothing to him; we recognize that in fact it is; otherwise taking it away would not be in the character of a punishment. Rather, we're determining that what he has done justifies putting him to death. We're not trying to assign a value to his life; we're determining that no matter how much value his life has, it is outweighed by the need for justice to be done to a murderer. In the latter case, on the other hand, we're trying to assign a particular value to a person's life, which I do not believe we have enough information to do.

The fact that I support the death penalty for murderers does not mean that I love life less, any more than the fact that I support prison sentences for other crimes means I love liberty less.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Have a nice summer!

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Apr 6 2005, 01:20 PM

I haven't read this whole thread, because I haven't been following the Shiavo story very well.

But I would like to ask why so many of us talk of death as something to be feared.

It is suffering that is the real evil.

Spoken like a true Epicurean.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Apr 6 2005, 01:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Apr 6 2005, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 08:58 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 07:35 AM

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate.

Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die?

Did she die in 1990?

Did she die March 31, 2005?

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005.

Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us.

Amillia,

Thank you for your reply.

I believe the same thing that you do about a person dies when Heavenly Father takes their spirit.

I tend to believe that we don't actually die until our hearts stop beating.

You take someone who has a near death experience, and for a time, their spirit leaves their body right?

Yes, but are they dead for real? What about Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead or brought back by the Lord as in NDE?

It really is God's territory isn't it? I think there are some things we just shouldn't have any control over, yet we think we are wise enough to give and take life, even if it isn't real life we are giving.

It is all part of our testing. We are given knowledge, but with all of our getting of this knowledge, are we getting understanding? I really don't think we are doing too well in that catagory.

I think we have to have courage to change what we can, serenity to accept the things we cannot change and wisdom to know the difference. I think wisdom is both knowledge and the use of it to the benefit, not damage, of all people.

However, agency of man, keeps all the world swirling around in some pretty questionable decisions. We all do stupid things, we all make bad decisions, and sometimes we all are fooled into thinking we know better than someone else how it should be done.

But sometimes we can look back upon those times and see that we really didn't know better.

It really is God's territory isn't it? I think there are some things we just shouldn't have any control over, yet we think we are wise enough to give and take life, even if it isn't real life we are giving.

Amillia, may I assume then that you are against capital punishment--since we ought not think of ourselves "wise enough to give and take life"?

I think taking the life of someone who has taken life is different than any other kind. I do believe in capital punishment. Of course I am way prejudice because of someone who kidnapped, raped, and murdered a dear friend of mine when I was young.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 6 2005, 01:16 PM

Cal,

I submit there's a difference between knowingly taking a person's life as a punishment for murder, and taking a person's life because we don't believe it's worth living.  In the former case, we're not making a judgment that the murdere's life is worth nothing to him; we recognize that in fact it is; otherwise taking it away would not be in the character of a punishment.  Rather, we're determining that what he has done justifies putting him to death.  We're not trying to assign a value to his life; we're determining that no matter how much value his life has, it is outweighed by the need for justice to be done to a murderer.  In the latter case, on the other hand, we're trying to assign a particular value to a person's life, which I do not believe we have enough information to do.

The fact that I support the death penalty for murderers does not mean that I love life less, any more than the fact that I support prison sentences for other crimes means I love liberty less.

As usual, you have very logical and intelligent responses.

I submit that inspite of what you have said, and it is a rational statement, it STILL puts us in a position to take upon ourselves to judge the value of another human's life. Even if we think we have the wisdom to judge what "outweighs" what, we are still limiting the value of a human life. In other words, WE not God are making the decision as to the value of that life....we are assuming we have the wisdom to make that decision or valuation correctly. Maybe we do, as you imply, and maybe we don't; but we are still taking it upon OURSELVES to make the judgement that the murderer's live is not worth saving given the totality of the circumstances.

Some see the circumstance devaluate that life to the point of extinguishing it; others don't see the circumstances waranting such depreciation. It really comes down to a value judgement on the worth of human life--everyone, I suspect, has a slightly different take on that value.