why do you believe

[mountthepavement]

I find myself at a loss for the words that could adequately show you what I mean. I hope you will forgive me or try to see the depth and breadth when I say simply that somehow I know.

Spiritual knowledge is something that I have had to learn to identify amidst all the rest of the "stuff" going on in my head and body. And then there is that ever important element of faith that must be identified as well because I can't say in all honesty that every piece of my knowledge is perfect or complete. But there is enough surety that I can confidently put my trust and faith to work inside of the process and with the knowledge that I have received. In short, I can say that the process works! And that there are things I do know....things that defy reason and culture and human-ness.

Spiritual communication is something that defies description and you only really understand after you feel it. And I think to really understand it and perhaps accept it, you must have more than one experience with it. The process of gaining this knowledge must be something you do over and over. It is the "rinse and repeat" philosophy. :) And it works kinda like a a volume button. The more you push, the louder the voice. Or in scriptural terms, each repetition brings more and more light and with that light comes greater understanding and even wisdom.

It is something that seems to lay to rest all the questioning or emotion-izing (yeah...I think I just invented a word. ) and even the trap over over intellectualizing and it happens in a very remarkable yet incredibly simple way. And I think it would be easy to dismiss as hormones or even some prideful delusion if one wasn't able to discern. I think that is why the testing for me has made the difference because it has taught a little of how to discern.

Sometimes I thought I was feeling the spirit and really I was just riding the waves of emotion. Other times I was riding the waves of emotion, but was sure something else was working on me inside of that emotion-- something outside of myself. I have also had the experience where the logic or the hormones were raging as it were, and still the spirit taught me or effected me in a way that seemed to transcend it all.

And now....I am sort of familiar with the spirit voice and how it teaches me or works with my ways of doing things. Sometimes I see it work in others and find that I want more of what they have. And so.....I go back to the process to see if I can taste what they can taste. :)

Make any sense whatsoever????

Thank you!!

I am reticent to say whether it makes sense or not, but I believe you have fairly thoroughly expressed yourself. I get that you are saying that your knowing is based on a physical sense as well as testing this by sort of querying god and repeating that process as you say. :)

Quick follow-up on something that struck me: What do you mean by faith in the above?

[pam]

Pam, Misshalfway I think this talk: The Candle of the Lord probably touches on what you're talking about, mostly the first section, "What does salt taste like?"

Thanks Dravin I appreciate that. I have added it to my favorites to read in the very near future.

Edit: Never mind I just read it. Man I am keeping this on my favorites...to use in the future. It's awesome!!!

Edited June 7, 2009 by pam

[mountthepavement]

Pretty much what I was trying to say earlier but you said it so much more eloquently.

(In response to ineffability of the experience.) -- note irony! :) But just for fun, not to be mean.

Hi Pam,

What do you think about the ineffable appearing in the testimony of others, i.e.: non-LDS, say, some mystic from X religion? Is theirs just as valid when they found it on something they call truth internal or at least veiled from external observers, which they are at a loss to describe? I hope this isn't being too hypothetical, merely quasi-objective.

Thank you!

[Misshalfway]

Thank you!!

I am reticent to say whether it makes sense or not, but I believe you have fairly thoroughly expressed yourself. I get that you are saying that your knowing is based on a physical sense as well as testing this by sort of querying god and repeating that process as you say. :)

Quick follow-up on something that struck me: What do you mean by faith in the above?

Well, we were just talking about this on another thread. Faith is a fundamental to the gaining of spiritual knowledge. You don't get one without the other. We learn by study (I mean the best books, latest research, scriptures, words of prophets, etc) AND by faith. Faith is a principle of action and power -- not just belief. Faith is the force that gets a diver to dive or a fisherman to fish and one that helps them obey the rules of diving or fishing. They obey the rules and believe and then the catch the fish. It is a process of walking into the dark in obedience BEFORE the light comes, but believing that the light will most surely come.

Spiritual knowledge is different than other kinds of knowledge. I mean, I can go to the library and become an expert on gardening or poetry or something scientific, but that sort of aquisition doesn't require much of me other than maybe my time and perhaps tuition fees.

Spiritual knowledge is different in that obtaining it requires some sacrifices of us first before it is given. It is kind of like a contractual relationship -- the blessing comes when certain conditions are met within the heart of the individual and one of those things is the exercising of faith. One must .....(prepare yourself, it is a yucky word).....change first. :) We kinda have to take spiritual risks ..... or become vulnerable. And its faith that drives that effort because it assures us that as we leave the known, that somehow we will find our way to a new place of safety. And that is kinda how faith brings knowledge. We step into the dark of what don't know.....armed with our study and faith....and then God illuminates the way ahead of us and teaches us the new and the old and sometimes even stuff that is unknown to the rest of the world.

[pam]

As I have had 4 hours of sleep I hope I am understanding your question.

I have no doubt that there are non LDS that have spiritual experiences. Ones that they can't describe in words that help them to have an understanding or bring them more of a knowledge of God and HIS Son. I don't believe LDS have a market on a closeness with Them at all.

[mountthepavement]

Well, we were just talking about this on another thread. Faith is a fundamental to the gaining of spiritual knowledge. You don't get one without the other. We learn by study (I mean the best books, latest research, scriptures, words of prophets, etc) AND by faith. Faith is a principle of action and power -- not just belief. Faith is the force that gets a diver to dive or a fisherman to fish and one that helps them obey the rules of diving or fishing. They obey the rules and believe and then the catch the fish. It is a process of walking into the dark in obedience BEFORE the light comes, but believing that the light will most surely come.

Spiritual knowledge is different than other kinds of knowledge. I mean, I can go to the library and become an expert on gardening or poetry or something scientific, but that sort of aquisition doesn't require much of me other than maybe my time and perhaps tuition fees.

Spiritual knowledge is different in that obtaining it requires some sacrifices of us first before it is given. It is kind of like a contractual relationship -- the blessing comes when certain conditions are met within the heart of the individual and one of those things is the exercising of faith. One must .....(prepare yourself, it is a yucky word).....change first. :) We kinda have to take spiritual risks ..... or become vulnerable. And its faith that drives that effort because it assures us that as we leave the known, that somehow we will find our way to a new place of safety. And that is kinda how faith brings knowledge. We step into the dark of what don't know.....armed with our study and faith....and then God illuminates the way ahead of us and teaches us the new and the old and sometimes even stuff that is unknown to the rest of the world.

Good. Also, the specific sense of my question, though it was only vague, is how something called faith turns from some internal state into action. I mean, perhaps a concrete depiction of it in daily life would help me understand. Also, I can ask specifically if faith is following actions suggested by the deity -- and this could be viewed as communicated through another person or within yourself as a voice of some sort?

So, is faith following these spiritual guidances? Or is it something less concrete?

[mountthepavement]

Faith is a principle of action and power -- not just belief. .

I just focused a bit more on this sentence. Could you elaborate on how the concept of faith is related to the concept of power to you? Thanks!!

[mountthepavement]

As I have had 4 hours of sleep I hope I am understanding your question.

I have no doubt that there are non LDS that have spiritual experiences. Ones that they can't describe in words that help them to have an understanding or bring them more of a knowledge of God and HIS Son. I don't believe LDS have a market on a closeness with Them at all.

Okay, that makes sense with what you have said, I think. However, it strikes me that LDS is sometimes described as the one true church and so on. Is this a contradiction? Is it just that LDS goes further in closeness?

Thanks, and get some rest! :)

[pam]

We do believe we are the TRUE Church. We also do believe that other Church' hold truth we just don't believe they have ALL the truth.

[mountthepavement]

We do believe we are the TRUE Church. We also do believe that other Church' hold truth we just don't believe they have ALL the truth.

okay, that's what I thought. Would you say that other religions provide a path to some godliness, to some degree, but that the purpose of LDS or, say, JS, is/was to pursue PERFECTION in godliness, rather than being contented with a mere "degree of perfection," which is of course an oxymoron of sorts.

What about the spiritual underachievers? Is it so bad? :)

Also, to what extent does this pursuit of perfection resemble that of eastern religions. If you have no opinion on this one, that's fine.

[pam]

I absolutely agree that other religions provide a path to Godliness. We also believe that anyone that has not had the opportunity to learn the truth while on earth will have an opportunity in the next life. They then have the choice to accept it or not.

[mountthepavement]

We also believe that anyone that has not had the opportunity to learn the truth while on earth will have an opportunity in the next life. They then have the choice to accept it or not.

I have some understanding of LDS beliefs about the afterlife, but do you also believe in reincarnation? I've never heard that, so I would be surprised.

Is choice a simple act of will on the part of an agent, such as ourselves?

[pam]

but that the purpose of LDS or, say, JS, is/was to pursue PERFECTION in godliness

We also know and believe there was but one perfect person that ever lived and that is Jesus Christ himself. Our goal is striving to be more like him.

[pam]

No I don't believe in reincarnation.

[Misshalfway]

Good. Also, the specific sense of my question, though it was only vague, is how something called faith turns from some internal state into action. I mean, perhaps a concrete depiction of it in daily life would help me understand. Also, I can ask specifically if faith is following actions suggested by the deity -- and this could be viewed as communicated through another person or within yourself as a voice of some sort?

So, is faith following these spiritual guidances? Or is it something less concrete?

Yes, I think faith does include following the spiritual guidances that come from God. It is less concrete at first.

I think faith is best understood by appealing to scripture. So if you don't mind, I think I will copy and paste a little Alma 32, cuz I think these words say it better than I could. Why don't you read this first, and then we can explore personal experience.

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto them many times, which confound the wise and the learned.

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your aground is bbarren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with apatience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

[mountthepavement]

No I don't believe in reincarnation.

Yeah, I didn't think so. But when you say afterlife, you mean the next spiritual plane? Is it the ultimate one or is there one after that, say, for people who refuse their second (third?) chance to accept truth?

[pam]

Is choice a simple act of will on the part of an agent, such as ourselves?

We have agency which means we (ourselves) have the opportunity to make choices to do right or to do wrong.

[mountthepavement]

We also know and believe there was but one perfect person that ever lived and that is Jesus Christ himself. Our goal is striving to be more like him.

Yes, I forgot that I had gotten this impression before of LDS. What makes Jesus perfect? Can we see his perfection? I went to an LDS church once and I recall one of the members who was speaking talking about moments of apprehending perfection and arguing also that Jesus never got angry, since such is an imperfect emotion or something. Do you agree with this? Is this a widespread idea?

[mountthepavement]

We have agency which means we (ourselves) have the opportunity to make choices to do right or to do wrong.

is that a circle icon?! That seems appropriate, I agree. I think it is a common Christian belief that people invariably choose wrongly when they exert their own will or agency. Is this prevalent in LDS as well?

[pam]

I'm not sure I can agree that Jesus never got angry. There is the story of Jesus approaching the moneychangers in the temple. He felt they were desecrating a holy place. He got angry then. It was a righteous anger.

But as far as every other action or deed or thought I would say he was perfect.

Could you explain what you mean by "see his perfection?"

[pam]

is that a circle icon?! That seems appropriate, I agree. I think it is a common Christian belief that people invariably choose wrongly when they exert their own will or agency. Is this prevalent in LDS as well?

haha don't ask me how that little circle got there. I have no idea.

[Misshalfway]

I just focused a bit more on this sentence. Could you elaborate on how the concept of faith is related to the concept of power to you? Thanks!!

Again, I think the best way to illustrate this is thru scripture so I refer you to Moses, Enoch, Peter, Alma, Nephi, Jacob, Stephen, and so many others whose life events illlustrate the power of faith.

It is faith, or thru the exercising of faith that miracles happen. Seas are parted, mountains are removed, people are healed, and hearts are changed. It is thru faith that any human is able to participate in these powerful events.

I see the power in my own life. I am able to do more, understand more, be more when I exercise faith. Blessings come to my family when I do. Changes come to my heart when I do. I find solutions to my problems, big and small, and answers to my questions too. Faith opens up possibilities that weren't seen before. Faith changes our views and opens our eyes to the power of God. Faith gets me thru the dark times of challenge or struggle. Faith keeps my heart centered on the important when the world and all of its forces would confuse and distract me OR when I don't know something or my heart is troubled by some complexing circumstance.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

I'm not sure I can agree that Jesus never got angry. There is the story of Jesus approaching the moneychangers in the temple. He felt they were desecrating a holy place. He got angry then. It was a righteous anger.

But as far as every other action or deed or thought I would say he was perfect.

Could you explain what you mean by "see his perfection?"

I think what people mean when they say "Christ never got angry" was that Christ never lost control of his passions. I think some people think that anger is always inherently bad, but it is clear that sometimes anger is appropriate when used properly and always with an infusion of love. The scriptures differentiate is as "righteous indignation". I think that is different than someone needing anger management classes.

[pam]

Yes indignation is a much better word. Thank you.

[mountthepavement]

Yes, I think faith does include following the spiritual guidances that come from God. It is less concrete at first.

I think faith is best understood by appealing to scripture. So if you don't mind, I think I will copy and paste a little Alma 32, cuz I think these words say it better than I could. Why don't you read this first, and then we can explore personal experience.

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto them many times, which confound the wise and the learned.

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your aground is bbarren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with apatience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

Okay, then faith is the process of nourishing the promise made by god through scripture (JS) by believing it and then proceeding to see what comes of this belief, if only experimentally and tentatively. And that this tentative process will perhaps grow in confidence? So, what it is, I see, is doing what the scriptures say, no, hoping sincerely that they are the path to truth, righteousness, etc.?

Is it possible that all of this is not true and that the positive spiritual feedback you experience is certainly a real process, but, reflectively, the propositions of your faith, such as JS spoke with an angel of god, are not true? This, of course, would be a seed of doubt parallel to the seed of faith described above. I do not mean to tempt you away from your faith; I just want clarification on how it is to be LDS.

Dostoevsky said something to the effect that he didn't care if Christ was a lie, that one ought to believe it anyway. Sorry for the paraphrase. Would you agree with this?