Staying in the Church?

[Kawazu]

You did not do it for long enough.

How long is enough?

[kpatrey]

His, Mormon Stories podcast on Blacks and the LDS Priesthood was great; I recommend it:

Blacks and the LDS Priesthood

It may be good but from what I have been reading about him on the other posts it seems like he is not a strong member of the church; possibly pulling members in the wrong direction. Plus, I already have a bad taste in my mouth about not allowing blacks in the priesthood, I don't think I want more added to that. BUT...that's an entirely different post all together. btw- sorry if i totally botch up these quote things....I can't seem to get the hang of replying to these threads...lol

[Dravin]

[It may be good but from what I have been reading about him on the other posts it seems like he is not a strong member of the church; possibly pulling members in the wrong direction. Plus, I already have a bad taste in my mouth about not allowing blacks in the priesthood, I don't think I want more added to that. BUT...that's an entirely different post all together. btw- sorry if i totally botch up these quote things....I can't seem to get the hang of replying to these threads...lol

You just forgot the closing before your own text that's all.

[marshac]

Wow.... so based on what some people have posted on an internet forum, you've already declared that this man is a weak member of the church... thankfully the courts in the US don't run on hearsay. Seriously- one's faith and testimony should only ever be called into question by that person themselves- it's not our role to judge that. Feel free to disagree with the work, but leave his own faith out of it.

This is my last post in this thread- it has gotten to be too frustrating for me. Clearly there are strong opinions here, and nothing we say to each other is going to change that. I believe it's simply a matter of perspective- we each have our own, so we see the issue from different angles.

Going from here, if you disagree with the work, turn it into a positive! John made the podcasts because he saw (through his own experience) a hole in the church- that hole being support for folks that are having a major (as in they're walking out the front door) crisis (or complete loss) of faith. For them, the advice of "read the scriptures and pray about it" seems hollow since that's what they have already been doing... to them, it's not answers, it's just more of the same... and they've had it. Seeing and experiencing this, John took a look at some of the issues that have prompted people to leave the church- masonry, blacks in the priesthood, etc. and began to address each one of them and, IMO, effectively reconciling the uncomfortable historical truths with theology. Yes, some of it is pure speculation (like in the masonry issue), but it's darn good speculation that could quite possibly give someone a theological life jacket. This is my perspective. The other perspective I see is one from people in the church who only see the speculation and consider it just plain wrong- and it could be. My only point to these folks is that none of it was ever intended for their consumption- they're not the ones in need of a life jacket.

So how does this become a positive? If you disagree with John's approach, put something together designed to help these people! There's a lot of them out there- new converts and old leave the church every day for various reasons.... you could help some of them with your work.

And with that, i'm done with this thread. Hopefully nobody has any hard feelings :)

[Carl62]

Wow.... so based on what some people have posted on an internet forum, you've already declared that this man is a weak member of the church... thankfully the courts in the US don't run on hearsay. Seriously- one's faith and testimony should only ever be called into question by that person themselves- it's not our role to judge that. Feel free to disagree with the work, but leave his own faith out of it.

This is my last post in this thread- it has gotten to be too frustrating for me. Clearly there are strong opinions here, and nothing we say to each other is going to change that. I believe it's simply a matter of perspective- we each have our own, so we see the issue from different angles.

Going from here, if you disagree with the work, turn it into a positive! John made the podcasts because he saw (through his own experience) a hole in the church- that hole being support for folks that are having a major (as in they're walking out the front door) crisis (or complete loss) of faith. For them, the advice of "read the scriptures and pray about it" seems hollow since that's what they have already been doing... to them, it's not answers, it's just more of the same... and they've had it. Seeing and experiencing this, John took a look at some of the issues that have prompted people to leave the church- masonry, blacks in the priesthood, etc. and began to address each one of them and, IMO, effectively reconciling the uncomfortable historical truths with theology. Yes, some of it is pure speculation (like in the masonry issue), but it's darn good speculation that could quite possibly give someone a theological life jacket. This is my perspective. The other perspective I see is one from people in the church who only see the speculation and consider it just plain wrong- and it could be. My only point to these folks is that none of it was ever intended for their consumption- they're not the ones in need of a life jacket.

So how does this become a positive? If you disagree with John's approach, put something together designed to help these people! There's a lot of them out there- new converts and old leave the church every day for various reasons.... you could help some of them with your work.

And with that, i'm done with this thread. Hopefully nobody has any hard feelings :)

VERY well said marshac!:)

[Islander]

There is no hole in the Church. The hole is in his (Delhi's) own soul. He is the one in a spiritual rot, he is the one in crisis. Thus my assertion that we should seek the advise of the prophets and the Savior if face with the same issues. Why seek swap meet style advice when the prophets have spoken on the matter? I fail to see the point.

[Carl62]

You know, it's so easy just to simply say that people who are struggling with the church either have a) sin in their life and need to repent, or b) say that they need to read the scriptures, pray about it and listen to the General Authorities. What about a person who's picked up some anti-Mormon literature? Or maybe got a hold of a Sandra Tanner book? Or saw one of the hundreds of youtube videos that contained anti propaganda? Or saw the PBS special on "The Mormons"? How do members get around that? You just can't simply tell them "oh, that's all taken out of context" or "that's all lies". While some of it may be, the general 'meat and potatoes' of it may not be. So I think this is where John Dehlin comes into play with how to help people resolve these issues and still maintain a positive outlook on the church and keep them from going inactive or resigning their membership. While his approach may be controversial, from what I've read he's helped THOUSANDS keep their faith in the church, for the most part, somewhat intact. And for even doing just that much, (or that little, depending on how you look at it) I truly applaud him.

[Islander]

You know, it's so easy just to simply say that people who are struggling with the church either have a) sin in their life and need to repent, or b) say that they need to read the scriptures, pray about it and listen to the General Authorities. What about a person who's picked up some anti-Mormon literature? Or maybe got a hold of a Sandra Tanner book? Or saw one of the hundreds of youtube videos that contained anti propaganda? Or saw the PBS special on "The Mormons"? How do members get around that? You just can't simply tell them "oh, that's all taken out of context" or "that's all lies". While some of it may be, the general 'meat and potatoes' of it may not be. So I think this is where John Dehlin comes into play with how to help people resolve these issues and still maintain a positive outlook on the church and keep them from going inactive or resigning their membership. While his approach may be controversial, from what I've read he's helped THOUSANDS keep their faith in the church, for the most part, somewhat intact. And for even doing just that much, (or that little, depending on how you look at it) I truly applaud him.

This is an issue that has been rehashed several times in the forum. If your belief and testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel is shaken, if your strength and testimony trembles like a leaf in the wind because something somebody says or something you read it is YOU that realized that your foundation is weak. Nothing has changed, but you have realized that your roots are not planted deep into the soil of the Gospel. It is you that find yourself tumbling down swept by the wind for your anchor has failed.

What you must also realize is that since the time of the crucifixion, people have been contending about every aspect of the life and ministry of Christ. Even before that, they killed the prophets and rejected their teachings. Remember, Joseph was killed by the mob and for almost 200 years, enemies, critics and detractors have been trying to defame and discredit his work. The accusations, the lies and vile propositions that some of these characters present are very old and faded. There is nothing new there that we have not heard before. It has been the work of the devil since and will continue to be for that is all this miserable being can do to try and interfere with the work.

So, there is only ONE way to regain your footing, renew your strength and regain a testimony of the truthfulness of this work; yes --it is by reading your scriptures, by praying and pondering on the things of the Lord and by doing His work. For you will never regain a solid witness of this work unless you commit every ounce of energy to it and every waking moment to win this spiritual war in which you find yourself at this moment. It is that simple, yes and all you have to do is to listen to the counsel of the brethren and "look" into the scriptures.

"And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished." 1Ne 17:41

Edited July 10, 2009 by Islander

[Jim108]

Hello All,

What do you think about websites like this? http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html

I ask because like other people who have grown up in the church (that I have read about) I am struggling with what my relationship is like with the Church.

Thanks

The question you should ask yourself is not what my relationship is with the church, but rather, what is my relationship with Jesus is? Good luck.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Jim108

[Carl62]

The question you should ask yourself is not what my relationship is with the church, but rather, what is my relationship with Jesus is? Good luck.

In our (LDS) church, the two are pretty close to being one and the same. For me personally, my relationship with Jesus takes priority over the church but again, they are extremely close.

[john doe]

The question you should ask yourself is not what my relationship is with the church, but rather, what is my relationship with Jesus is? Good luck.

Well, considering that LDS believe that our church is Jesus' formal temporal instrument to proclaim His Gospel, we believe that the two would be intertwined somewhat. Yes, your relationship to Jesus is of utmost importance, but to claim to be close to Him and then not wanting to participate in His Church and His annointed ordinances would be akin to 'drawing close to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me'.