My Final Thoughts On Mormonsim

[USNationalist]

I wrote this last night after watching a special on mormon missionaries on PBS.

I am also convinced in my own heart that the LDS church is not the restored church of God and that their new teachings and docrtines are false. However all that is not to say that they are not a saved people.---------

MORMONISM

In the bible we are told repeatedly to judge faith, teachers and prophets by their fruits.

The fruits of the LDS church are the same fruits of the spirit talk about in Galatians 5:22-26 (22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another)

So then how can they be considered wicked?

In 1John 4:15 it says "15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." Don’t Mormons make that very confession? It is just as much the focal point of their religion as it is our own. So then in believing that our own word of God is true- through the confession of Christ made by the Mormons, they are in God and he in them.

Romans 8:1 says "1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." So then how do we justify our condemnation of the LDS faithful?

Romans 10:9-10 (9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ), Acts 16:30-31 (30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house) And John 3:16 (16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.) Tell us beyond a shadow of a doubt that salvation is gained through faith in Jesus Christ. Mormons share that very same faith we do.

There are, many warnings in the bible of false Christ’s, false prophets and false teachers (2John 1:7, Mark 13:6, Galatians 1:9, 2Tim 4:3-4, 1John 2:22, Acts 4:12, Colossians 2:8, Mathew 24:23-26, 2Corninthians 11:13-14, 2Peter 2:1-3 & 10-22, Mathew 7:15-20, Galatians 5:4 and Galatians 1:8-9) all of which warn us of the iniquities that they will promote. And that we will know them by their fruits. But none of those warnings can be linked to the works of the LDS church. What iniquities do they promote?

We are justified by faith in Christ, our works bring us no righteousness. We are saved by belief in Christ and by seeking to walk in the spirit and not the flesh. So how can so many Christians judge their brothers in Christ because of, none other then, works? And the works which they judge are not even those which might bring condemnation, such as teachings of iniquity in which things such as greed or sexual immorality (i.e. the rainbow church) are not condemnd. Instead they judge them for differences in opinions of religious ordinances. In Romans 14 we are taught by the apostle Paul that those are not to be fought over amongst ourselves. Ordinances of faith are not cause for conflict in the body of Christ. We will all be judged according to our own faith by God.

"12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way." –Romans 14:12-13

The strife between the LDS church and the rest of Christianity is not of God. We should accept them as brothers in Christ and fellow heirs to Gods Kingdom.

[Guest Starsky]

Wow...that was awesome. :)

[sanctuaryave]

I would agree with you when you say "We should accept them as brothers in Christ and fellow heirs to Gods Kingdom. "

I haven't made a decision about this part yet. "I am also convinced in my own heart that the LDS church is not the restored church of God and that their new teachings and docrtines are false. "

[USNationalist]

I hadnt made my final opinion reguarding the legitamacy of the church until recentily... or hadn't had my previous notions reaffirmed. I have many reasons for my belief- including the fact that i did say the prayer in moroni 10- 4 times. And i know the what the spirit feels like, i have been overwhelmed complelty by it before, so i knew what to look for. And can honestly say that the spirit did not testify to me the truthness of the book.

Which fuels my beliefe that neither do any mormons, but they are decieved. In the bible we are always told to judge somthing by its fruits. And it talks about many being decieved. If the spirit was going to hold your hand through it there would be no need for such warnings.

feelings can be decieving- things must be judged by their fruits- not the feelings they might inspire in you

[Guest bat]

USN,

You need to keep trying to convince yourself that the church is true and that you will receive a spiritual confirmation. Only then will the prayer work. You're right about one thing though. Feelings can be deceiveing. Use that to your advantage to help convince yourself.

[Paul Osborne]

I’m convinced the Church is true and the Holy Ghost has made that perfectly clear, particularly a few undeniable times. Yes, I’m convinced. If you want to drop out of the race or not join-- oh well. It’s your choice. We all choose our own destiny.

I’m sticking with Mormonism until my last breath, so help me God.

Paul O

[USNationalist]

Thats right, it is my choice. And interestingly enough to note. The Terestial Kingdom, inwhich i will end up residing should your faith be true- is essentialy, minus the company of one of the personages of God, the very same heaven i plan to go to anyway. So im not really loseing anything that matters to me by giving up chances for celestial glory.

[Tr2]

I�m sticking with Mormonism until my last breath, so help me God

This is what just kills me about LDS, you are sticking with a man made institution until your last breath. Pretty stupid. I can understand the logic of sticking with Jesus, Allah, or Buddha, but cannot understand why you would have that kind of loyalty to an organization.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 12 2004, 01:55 AM

I hadnt made my final opinion reguarding the legitamacy of the church until recentily... or hadn't had my previous notions reaffirmed. I have many reasons for my belief- including the fact that i did say the prayer in moroni 10- 4 times. And i know the what the spirit feels like, i have been overwhelmed complelty by it before, so i knew what to look for. And can honestly say that the spirit did not testify to me the truthness of the book.

Which fuels my beliefe that neither do any mormons, but they are decieved. In the bible we are always told to judge somthing by its fruits. And it talks about many being decieved. If the spirit was going to hold your hand through it there would be no need for such warnings.

feelings can be decieving- things must be judged by their fruits- not the feelings they might inspire in you

I thoroughly received the validity once again while reading Alam 34, and I wasn't even praying to receive it. It just was overwhelming.

I wonder why some receive it so strong and even often, while others don't.

It makes me wonder sometimes, what the purpose and individual allowance and blessings are.

I mean...some people are born into a free country and have prosperity, while others are born into and have to live in places over run with poverty and bad government.

What is the underlying purpose?

[Tr2]

I thoroughly received the validity once again while reading Alam 34, and I wasn't even praying to receive it. It just was overwhelming.

So in others words you are basing your eternal destiny on a few feelings you've had? I understand that feelings should play a role, but they shouldn't be the deciding factor on their own. Have you taken an objective look at your religion? Have you seriously considered the anti-mormon argument? I don't care what religion you are, if you don't take an objective look at what you believe, you are a fool. I can honestly say that mormons and Christians are the worst for this.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

USN -- I apologize if this sounds condescending, but when you first showed up on these boards, I thought you came across as kind of a mindless kid. Not anymore. You've engaged in some serious thought on serious matters, and did it well. You come across as very thoughtful. I'm impressed.

[Kevin]

UNS,

You said:

feelings can be decieving- things must be judged by their fruits- not the feelings they might inspire in you

You also quoted galations which tells us that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace etc. Aren't these things feelings?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 12 2004, 10:25 AM

I thoroughly received the validity once again while reading Alam 34, and I wasn't even praying to receive it. It just was overwhelming.

So in others words you are basing your eternal destiny on a few feelings you've had? I understand that feelings should play a role, but they shouldn't be the deciding factor on their own. Have you taken an objective look at your religion? Have you seriously considered the anti-mormon argument? I don't care what religion you are, if you don't take an objective look at what you believe, you are a fool. I can honestly say that mormons and Christians are the worst for this.

Actually, I have done exhaustive studying and praying, even about the anti-stuff. Some of the historical facts are true. Does that decrease the value of the truth which came through this church? Not in my estimation.

[Guest enlightenme]

Can I ask a question ?

Why do we get marrined???

Do we use our feelings to make that decision???

I would certainly hope so...

why is it that we can't use what feel to make decisions about what we belive in regards to God???

[Guest Starsky]

Why do we get marrined???

I don't know. I don't even know what that is.

[Ray]

USN,

I’m curious about why you think you’ll end up in only the Terestial kingdom. Is that only because you can’t see yourself ever accepting the teachings of the LDS church?

What is it, really, that gives you the idea that you will never accept all of the teachings of the LDS church? Are you saying that you can see no possible way to explain how all of the teachings of the LDS church can be true? If you later had everything explained to you, in a way that made absolute sense to you, wouldn’t you at least be open to the possibility that the explanations for those teaching might be true?

I’m sincerely interested in reading a list of things you have trouble believing.

Do you really believe that it’s totally impossible that:

1) Our Lord and our heavenly Father both appeared to the boy Joseph Smith?

2) The Book of Mormon is really what it claims to be?

3) An angel appeared to Joseph Smith and others to restore the authority to establish the kingdom of God on the earth?

4) That our Lord is revealing His will to people in this day and age, just as He did in the past?

What is it that seems so impossible to you that you can NOW say that you will NEVER see yourself accepting these things, or anything that the LDS church teaches to be true?

I just don’t get it.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 12 2004, 08:47 AM

Thats right, it is my choice. And interestingly enough to note. The Terestial Kingdom, in which i will end up residing should your faith be true - is essentialy, minus the company of one of the personages of God, the very same heaven i plan to go to anyway. So im not really loseing anything that matters to me by giving up chances for celestial glory.

I agree!

This is what I keep telling the non-Mormon Christians who criticize the doctrine that only Mormons can go to the CK. Why are they complaining??? They don't believe in the Celestial Kingdom, really!

Non-Mormon Christians believe Jesus=God, right? In the Terrestrial Kingdom you will be in the presence of Jesus...who is your God! So that is the non-Mormon heaven!

[USNationalist]

Ray-

I believe the majority of your questions can be answerd by the topic description. "maybe".

I am confident that i am correct in what i believe right now- but i will not say that there may be something i dont know. I feel its never wise to rule out certain possibilities. Expecialy when, as a human, i am subject to human fallacy- which may be preventing me from knowing the truth. So while im very confident in what i believe- i couldnt with 100% certainity say that i will never change my mind.

[USNationalist]

<<You also quoted galations which tells us that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace etc. Aren't these things feelings? >>

yes, i guess what i was refearing to was more feelings that are confused for being divine pressence. Like people who claim God talks to them, or even that the spirit itself testifies to what they believe. I think its easy to fool yourself into thinking God is on yourside when you feel strongly about something- even if that means somthing as crazy as the killing of abortion doctors.

[Ray]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Feb 12 2004, 06:59 PM

Ray-

I believe the majority of your questions can be answerd by the topic description. "maybe".

I am confident that i am correct in what i believe right now- but i will not say that there may be something i dont know. I feel its never wise to rule out certain possibilities. Expecialy when, as a human, i am subject to human fallacy- which may be preventing me from knowing the truth. So while im very confident in what i believe- i couldnt with 100% certainity say that i will never change my mind.

USN,

I love your answer. You're showing honesty and integrity, and I truly appreciate those qualities in people.

Now my question is:

What do you need before you can know whether or not those things are true?

Let's consider somebody who doesn't believe what the Bible teaches, for instance. Would proof that the writings within the Bible were written hundreds and even thousands of years ago be proof that the teachings within the Bible are true? Would proof that the people mentioned in the Bible actually existed be proof that they were exactly as described in the Bible? Would proof that people wrote what is now in our Bibles be proof that what they said was true?

At some point in time I hope you'll be able to acknowledge that physical, scientific proof isn't enough to prove the truth about anything, because reasoning alone can provide alternate explanations for everything. Even if you personally saw God, how would science be able to prove to you that the person you saw was really God? And even if you had Faith, how would science be able to prove to you that you really do have God's assurance that something is true? Science can't even prove that love is real, so how do you know that what you think is love isn't actually a particular type of brain activity generated by something other than love?

What you need now is God's assurance that these things are true, and until you get that, you will never know for sure whether or not these things are true. Until then, just be open to the possibilities. :)

[USNationalist]

<<Let's consider somebody who doesn't believe what the Bible teaches, for instance. Would proof that the writings within the Bible were written hundreds and even thousands of years ago be proof that the teachings within the Bible are true? Would proof that the people mentioned in the Bible actually existed be proof that they were exactly as described in the Bible? Would proof that people wrote what is now in our Bibles be proof that what they said was true?>>

-pysical proof that the places in the bible actualy exsisted and so did the people does not prove that what the bible claims these people did is true. However- it provides a very real and solid foundation to have faith that those miricles did happen. Which makes it the difference between just a story, having little to no foundation in reality and an account of men who are known to have exsisted, and to have said the things that are claimed they said in the places they said them. Leaveing a foundation inwhich to have faith that what they were saying was true. Where as in the BoM the very world it took place on (essentialy) requires faith to believe in as well- leaving little to no foundation in reality.

I believe that any faith not on a foundation of truth and reality is misplaced faith.

[sanctuaryave]

Originally posted by Kevin@Feb 12 2004, 01:27 PM

UNS,

You said:

feelings can be decieving- things must be judged by their fruits- not the feelings they might inspire in you

You also quoted galations which tells us that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace etc. Aren't these things feelings?

I would argue they are activity...The Mormon church down the road from me demonstrated their love recently when my mother died. They stepped in and helped us send her home. They were kind and compassionate and loving.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 13 2004, 11:09 AM

So while im very confident in what i believe- i couldnt with 100% certainity say that i will never change my mind.

USN,

I love your answer. You're showing honesty and integrity, and I truly appreciate those qualities in people.

Ray: I find it so interesting that most LDS people expect people from other religions to keep an open mind to the things they believe are true and yet their own minds are absolutely closed as to the topic of religion. I don't think it's fair to ask others to have an open mind unless your mind is open as well to the possibility that your religion does not possess all truth.

[Ray]

USN,

Try to imagine yourself as someone who is living during the life of a prophet.

If Noah talked to you, would you accept his testimony? Before or after you saw all the rain? Is the rain the only thing that would convince you?

If you heard Isaiah or Jeremiah preaching in your city, would you accept their testimony? Before or after you were carried away into Babylon? Is that the only thing that would convince you that you and other people needed to repent of your sins and have Faith in God? Is that the only thing that would convince you that those people were really prophets of God?

If you heard our Lord, or one of His apostles, would you really believe what He or they said? Before or after you saw with your own eyes that He was truly resurrected, in possession of a glorified physical body? Can you imagine what other people would have said if you had told them that?

In other words, how do you know whether or not the teachings within the Bible are true? Do you believe those teachings only because there is “enough” physical evidence to support the existence of the people who wrote the Bible? How do you really know whether or not it’s true?

I believe that any faith not based on the truth and reality of an assurance from God is in fact no faith at all. I call that supposition, based only on reasoning and physical evidence. You can't have Faith without God.

curvette,

I believe we should consider all the possibilities until we know the truth about something. Do you really believe you should keep an open mind after you know something is true, to the point where you should doubt that what you know isn’t true? I hope not. I do think we should be careful about what we claim to know, though.

For instance, once we know that 1 + 1 = 2, should we be open to the possibility that “that” isn’t true? What good would that do? 1 + 1 will always equal two, and there is nothing anyone will ever be able to do to change that. It is true that one and one can be something other than two, but one plus one will always equal two.

Now let’s try a more “spiritual” perspective:

Once we know that Jesus is the Christ, should we be open to the possibility that He isn’t? To be open to the possibility that Jesus is not the Christ implies that you don’t have that knowledge. But once you know, you know, and there is nothing you will ever be able to do to change that.

Btw, someone who will say that Jesus is not the Christ is not open to the truth. If someone makes that statement, they are stating their position and a level of knowledge just as much as someone who states that the opposite is true. But Jesus is either the Christ or He isn’t, and to state that you have knowledge one way or the other is to make a claim upon which you will either stand or fall. I think it’s perfectly fine to say that I don’t know something, but a person of integrity will never say that they know something when they truly don’t know. And a person of integrity will also never state that they know something is not true, unless they know that it isn’t.

[Guest Starsky]

Ray stated: ...

I believe we should consider all the possibilities until we know the truth about something. Do you really believe you should keep an open mind after you know something is true, to the point where you should doubt that what you know isn’t true? I hope not. I do think we should be careful about what we claim to know, though.

I totally agree. Thanks Ray.