The Word Of Wisdom

[Nottingham]

Charles A Walker, a faithful Saint, recorded the following in his diary:

"Sun., Nov. 21, 1880....Bro. Milo Andress...Spoke of blessings and power of God manifested in

the Kirtland Temple. Said he once asked the Prophet [why] he [Milo, himself] did not feel that

power that was spoken of as 'the power that was felt on the Day of Pentacost'....[but] when we

had fasted for 24 hours and had partaken of the Lord's supper, namely a piece of bread as big

as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost

descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire."

(Diary of Charles L. Walker, 1855-1902)

The statement by [Apostle] George A. Smith would also lead a person to believe that wine was used to excess:

"...after the people had fasted all day, they sent out and got wine and bread...they ate and drank...

some of the High Counsel of Missouri stepped [onto] the stand, and, as righteous Noah did when

he awoke from his wine, commenced to curse their enemies."

(Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.216

In a statement dated February 27, 1885, Mrs. Alfred Morley charged:

"I have heard many Mormons who attended the dedication, or endowment of the Temple, say that

very many became drunk...The Mormon leaders would stand up to prophesy and were so drunk they

said that they could not get it out, and would call for another drink. Over [ie, more than] a barrel

of liquor was used at the service." (Naked Truths About Mormonism, Oakland, Calif., April, 1888, p.2)

Isaac Aldrich said that his brother "Hazen Aldrich, who was president of the Seventies. told me [that] when the

temple was dedicated a barrel of wine was used and they had a drunken 'pow-wow'." (Ibid., p.3)

Stephen A. Hart said that a Mormon by the name of McWhithey told him that "they passed the wine in pails sev-

eral times to the audience, and each person drank as much as he chose from a cup. He said that it was mixed

liquor, and he believed the Mormon leaders intended to get the audience under the influence of the mixed liquor,

so they would believe it was the Lord's doings...When the liquor was repassed, Mr. McWhithey told them he had

endowment enough..." (Ibid., p.3)

The reader will remember David Whitmer as one of the three witnesses of The Book of Mormon. He said that

"there was no visitation" (The Des Moines Daily News, October 16, l886)

William E. McLellin, who had served as an Apostle in the Mormon Church, commented: "As to the endowment

in Kirtland, I state positively, it was no endowment from God. Not only myself was not endowed, but no

other man of the five hundred who was present --except it was with wine."

(True Latter-Day Saints' Herald, XIX, 437)

The fact that the Saints fasted for some time and then drank an excessive amount of wine probably led many

of them to curse their enemies and to believe [that] they had seen visions.

HYPOCRISY

Orson Pratt once quipped: "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own

revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p.104)

Caveat/commentary: To give Elder Orson Pratt "credit", though, it was his manner of talking and speaking that

he did not point the finger at others and say "YOU" are doing this or that: he would quite frequently use the word

"we", even though he, himself, was not gulty of the thing he was trying to get across--what he wanted to

emphasize.

There are many, many more examples of hypocrisy in Church leadership, over their own non-compliance to the

Word of Wisdom [for example] and to their own excesses...

(More on this, at a later time)

[Dale]

Hi,

It's to bad people had to lie in order to contradict true versions of the endowment. The endowment happened. I feel William Mclellin was a liar. So was David Whitmer. The only thing I trust him on was his testimony of the Book of Mormon. It's to bad they died as sinful men.

The word od wisdom was not made mandetory in the LDS Church until after Joseph Smith Jr's death. I think it unfair to judge person's by rules not in effect at the time. The word of Wisdom was not given by commandment or restraint.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Nottingham]

Originally posted by Nottingham@May 4 2005, 11:32 PM

Charles A Walker, a faithful Saint, recorded the following in his diary:

    "Sun., Nov. 21, 1880....Bro. Milo Andress...Spoke of blessings and power of God manifested in

      the Kirtland Temple.  Said he once asked the Prophet [why] he [Milo, himself] did not feel that

      power that was spoken of as 'the power that was felt on the Day of Pentacost'....[but] when we

      had fasted for 24 hours and had partaken of the Lord's supper, namely a piece of bread as big

      as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost

      descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire."

                                                                          (Diary of Charles L. Walker, 1855-1902)

The statement by [Apostle] George A. Smith would also lead a person to believe that wine was used to excess:

    "...after the people had fasted all day, they sent out and got wine and bread...they ate and drank...

      some of the High Counsel of Missouri stepped [onto] the stand, and, as righteous Noah did when

      he awoke from his wine, commenced to curse their enemies."

                                                                            (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.216

In a statement dated February 27, 1885, Mrs. Alfred Morley charged:

      "I have heard many Mormons who attended the dedication, or endowment of the Temple, say that

      very many became drunk...The Mormon leaders would stand up to prophesy and were so drunk they

      said that they could not get it out, and would call for another drink.  Over [ie, more than] a barrel

      of liquor was used at the service." (Naked Truths About Mormonism, Oakland, Calif., April, 1888, p.2)

Isaac Aldrich said that his brother "Hazen Aldrich, who was president of the Seventies. told me [that] when the

temple was dedicated a barrel of wine was used and they had a drunken 'pow-wow'." (Ibid., p.3)

Stephen A. Hart said that a Mormon by the name of McWhithey told him that "they passed the wine in pails sev-

eral times to the audience, and each person drank as much as he chose from a cup.  He said that it was mixed

liquor, and he believed the Mormon leaders intended to get the audience under the influence of the mixed liquor,

so they would believe it was the Lord's doings...When the liquor was repassed, Mr. McWhithey told them he had

endowment enough..."  (Ibid., p.3)

The reader will remember David Whitmer as one of the three witnesses of The Book of Mormon.  He said that

"there was no visitation" (The Des Moines Daily News, October 16, l886)

William E. McLellin, who had served as an Apostle in the Mormon Church, commented:  "As to the endowment

in Kirtland, I state positively,  it was no endowment from God.  Not only myself was not endowed, but no

other man of the five hundred who was present --except it was with wine."

                                                                          (True Latter-Day Saints' Herald, XIX, 437)

The fact that the Saints fasted for some time and then drank an excessive amount of wine probably led many

of them to curse their enemies and to believe [that] they had seen visions.

HYPOCRISY

Orson Pratt once quipped: "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own

revelations.  Why?  Because we do not practice them." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p.104)

Caveat/commentary: To give Elder Orson Pratt "credit", though, it was his manner of talking and speaking that

he did not point the finger at others and say "YOU" are doing this or that: he would quite frequently use the word

"we", even though he, himself, was not gulty of the thing he was trying to get across--what he wanted to

emphasize.

There are many, many more examples of hypocrisy in Church leadership, over their own non-compliance to the

Word of Wisdom [for example] and to their own excesses...

(More on this, at a later time)

Caveat: It is not my intent, here, to cast a shadow on the character of LDS Church leaders of the present-day.

The idea of "more later" involves talking about the seeming hypocrisies--you be the judge--of early Church leaders

who "said one thing but did another".

If any, here, think that hypocrisy is an okay thing, you are free to feel and act in accordance with that belief: as for me and my house, it is not a good thing.

So, in keeping with this [the above] perspective, I will--soon but not today--give answer to my own "more later" statement and discuss what Joseph Smith thought about the Word of Wisdom, either as just so much "greeting [and] not...commandment/restraint"; or, if in fact he did think differently than we give him credit for.

[Guest curvette]

I don't think that, at this time, the Word of Wisdom was a mandate. It had been given three years earlier as advice, but not commandment. I imagine that in 1836, there was still pretty widespread use (at least occasional) of all the things forbidden to the church now. I don't see this as a good example of hypocrisy.

The thing that kind of annoys me about some of these quotes is that they insinuate that all the visions could be explained by alcohol consumption. They don't at all explain the miraculous claims of the days leading up to or following the "pentecost" where many visions were claimed (alcohol free.) There was also a rather large apostacy following the dedication festivities. I think many of the Priesthood holders felt kind of "shortchanged" because Joseph Smith had told them, " "I feel disposed to speak a few words more to you, my brethren, concerning the endowment: All who are prepared, and are sufficiently pure to abide the presence of the Savior, will see him in the solemn assembly." (DHC VII P 308-310)"

So, anyone who didn't have these kinds of visions would automatically feel that they were not sufficiently pure or prepared. Talk about pressure! I can see why some might resort to drunkenness if they hadn't witnessed anything miraculous!

[Dale]

Hi,

Although some denied an endowment occured it's their words against others.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@May 5 2005, 08:50 AM

I don't think that, at this time, the Word of Wisdom was a mandate.  It had been given three years earlier as advice, but not commandment.  I imagine that in 1836, there was still pretty widespread use (at least occasional) of all the things forbidden to the church now.  I don't see this as a good example of hypocrisy.

Whoa there sister. Nottingham is trying to make a point. Please don't mess it up with clear-headed thinking.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@May 5 2005, 10:31 PM

Wow there sister. Nottingham is trying to make a point. Please don't mess it up with clear-headed thinking.

Oh, now I'm your sister? What happened to Veronica?

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette+May 6 2005, 12:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ May 6 2005, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@May 5 2005, 10:31 PM

Wow there sister. Nottingham is trying to make a point. Please don't mess it up with clear-headed thinking.

Oh, now I'm your sister? What happened to Veronica?

Er, I thought Betty might be listening and I didn't want to cause a fuss.

[begood2]

On American Movie Classics I saw a Veronica Lake that was a real knockout in her day!

[begood2]

snow,

I've always been courious about your avator clip. You have probably explained it several times, but I've missed it. Are you suggesting that some of these post are driving you to drink?

When I read your post, I try not to look, but from the corner of my eye I keep seeing this bottle containing some red substance going to your lips.

The strange thing is that the bottle never seems to empty.

ps. please don't take offense, I know that curiosity killed the cat, but I'm just dying to know. I don't want the same fate however.

[Snow]

Originally posted by begood2@May 6 2005, 04:55 PM

snow,

I've always been courious about your avator clip. You have probably explained it several times, but I've missed it. Are you suggesting that some of these post are driving you to drink?

No - though my posts might drive others to drink... like fish.

It's Napolean Dynamite.

[begood2]

Snow,

OK, thanks~ I tried to crack a joke, but instead, I think my sheltered life is showing!

[Dale]

Hi,

Snow I was drunk on critic's literature for awhile. I admit & had a problem & turned to Jesus for help. I am greatful I was able to stay out of the worse type of critic's attitudes.

Sure there are problems with Mormonism but like this Word of Wisdom issue the issues not unresolveable. Critics point to things early LDS thought were official & forget official is not a final authority on matters. This is why heresies can appear in early LDS publications, but can be rejected by modern LDS. BY knew his successor would have as much authority as he did to define official LDS teaching.

Sincerely,

Dale