Nottingham

Charles A Walker, a faithful Saint, recorded the following in his diary: "Sun., Nov. 21, 1880....Bro. Milo Andress...Spoke of blessings and power of God manifested in the Kirtland Temple. Said he once asked the Prophet [why] he [Milo, himself] did not feel that power that was spoken of as 'the power that was felt on the Day of Pentacost'....[but] when we had fasted for 24 hours and had partaken of the Lord's supper, namely a piece of bread as big as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire." (Diary of Charles L. Walker, 1855-1902) The statement by [Apostle] George A. Smith would also lead a person to believe that wine was used to excess: "...after the people had fasted all day, they sent out and got wine and bread...they ate and drank... some of the High Counsel of Missouri stepped [onto] the stand, and, as righteous Noah did when he awoke from his wine, commenced to curse their enemies." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.216 In a statement dated February 27, 1885, Mrs. Alfred Morley charged: "I have heard many Mormons who attended the dedication, or endowment of the Temple, say that very many became drunk...The Mormon leaders would stand up to prophesy and were so drunk they said that they could not get it out, and would call for another drink. Over [ie, more than] a barrel of liquor was used at the service." (Naked Truths About Mormonism, Oakland, Calif., April, 1888, p.2) Isaac Aldrich said that his brother "Hazen Aldrich, who was president of the Seventies. told me [that] when the temple was dedicated a barrel of wine was used and they had a drunken 'pow-wow'." (Ibid., p.3) Stephen A. Hart said that a Mormon by the name of McWhithey told him that "they passed the wine in pails sev- eral times to the audience, and each person drank as much as he chose from a cup. He said that it was mixed liquor, and he believed the Mormon leaders intended to get the audience under the influence of the mixed liquor, so they would believe it was the Lord's doings...When the liquor was repassed, Mr. McWhithey told them he had endowment enough..." (Ibid., p.3) The reader will remember David Whitmer as one of the three witnesses of The Book of Mormon. He said that "there was no visitation" (The Des Moines Daily News, October 16, l886) William E. McLellin, who had served as an Apostle in the Mormon Church, commented: "As to the endowment in Kirtland, I state positively, it was no endowment from God. Not only myself was not endowed, but no other man of the five hundred who was present --except it was with wine." (True Latter-Day Saints' Herald, XIX, 437) The fact that the Saints fasted for some time and then drank an excessive amount of wine probably led many of them to curse their enemies and to believe [that] they had seen visions. HYPOCRISY Orson Pratt once quipped: "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p.104) Caveat/commentary: To give Elder Orson Pratt "credit", though, it was his manner of talking and speaking that he did not point the finger at others and say "YOU" are doing this or that: he would quite frequently use the word "we", even though he, himself, was not gulty of the thing he was trying to get across--what he wanted to emphasize. There are many, many more examples of hypocrisy in Church leadership, over their own non-compliance to the Word of Wisdom [for example] and to their own excesses... (More on this, at a later time)

It is only semantics for those who desire to be seen as "equal" with others. I never saw the LDS as being monotheistic anyway with the belief in exaltation (or becoming gods ourselves and creating a new planet with its own race of people). So then LDS beliefs introduce the concept of multitheism or rather having an exalted being who becomes a new creator God for each planet that is inhabited. LDS and others may apply the same attributes to God as you suggest (creation), but they are light years apart in most other regards. So again it is not semantics when "our" God (per LDS belief) was at one time a created being who became a god over this planet, when other Christians believe that no other god stands before the one true God who has no beginning or end. In Christ I Serve, Thunderfire

I found this study: High Rate of Suicide Utah ranks 8th highest in the nation for the number of age-adjusted suicides. For many years, suicide rates have been significantly higher for the Western States than for the rest of the country. By order of rank, the top ten states are New Mexico, Montana, Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Alaska, Utah, West Virginia and Oklahoma. Several studies have positively linked suicide with certain demographic, social and environmental factors[3], but none of these factors correlate significantly with the data from the Western States. The cause of this phenomenon remains to be discovered. http://www.utahpriorities.net/briefs/rb9_h...healthcare.html The suicide rate I found interesting because while visiting my SIL and her family she commented to me that in the past 8 months she's known personally about 5 people that have committed suicide. She believes that mental health problems are definitely more prevalent now. M.

I am a survivor of child molestation, I knew it was wrong even as a child, but there was a fear that I wouldn't be believed, especially when that witchhunt was going on in the 80's. For that reason, I put that trauma away for years until I started having body memories and flashbacks. I WAS NOT IN THERAPY AT THE TIME!! I did seek help, and my PTSD was so bad at one time that I had to use Paxil, but when I filed for divorce from an LDS Peter Priesthood, and ultimately resigned from your church, I was able to go off the drug. Today, I'm in a support group for other survivors and continue to get therapy. You know, I don't care if you believe her or not, but I AM TELLING THE GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!!! I am a SURVIVOR!

The one thing I, myself, have got to "hand it to" other Christian leaders for [ie, other denominations] is that the Pope never departs from the central message of his religion, which is the message of Christ; and, the second example is Billy Graham, who can talk for hours and hours and hours on the mission and redemption of Christ. The latter has not at any time departed from his "central theme", either, as far as I know. Is Graham "old", too? Yes Is the Pope "old", too? Most Definitely The above are two examples (two "old guys", whose examples are worth following).

Duckster! You got my attention here. Why do you wonder such a thing? Of all of the brethren to wonder about, he seems like one of the most unlikely to have doubts (to me, anyway.) Elder Packer sometimes a little too concerned that people will delve into Church history too far; his message is that people should toe the line and not question. When you're confident of your message, you don't have to be afraid of scrutiny. The most authoritarian types are sometimes the least secure. I think the late Hugh B. Brown's approach to the Gospel showed far more confidence that the Church would stand up to scrutiny. Of course, he lived during the Church's golden age of the 1940s and 50s, where the Church didn't face some of the challenges it does now, so it may be that Elder Packer's seeming bunker mentality is in response to the times.

Ewwww. Does that include eyebrows and nosehair?

Catchy title.Rather like Eliza R. Snow writing an article about "How to be a man".

The american people get leaders no better that what they can elect. We get what we deserve collectively. Given enough pickup truck driving, tobacco chewing, beer drinking, shot gun totting Bubbas and what do you get? George Bush. Ya know, quite a few thoughtful Saturn-driving (OK, so I also have a pickup -- but without Confederate battle flags), Swedish Fish-chewing, premium root beer-drinking, shotgun-proficient-but-not-exactly-"toting" Westlaw jockeys helped elect GW, too. And a bloody good thing it was. Frankly, if I had to choose between ugly stereotypes, I'd take the Bubba over the pinched-face patchouli-reeking unwashed ANSWER-rallying America-is-the-root-of-all-evil Deaniac any day. Fortunately, the vast majority of people on both sides of the divide don't come anywhere close to the stereotypes. I didn't say Dean was pinched-faced. I said that a stereotyped Dean activist was, echoing the stereotype about the tobacky-chewing pickup-driving Bush voter. Speaking of pickups, if I ever find the slinking $%#$% who dented my Tacoma in the parking garage yesterday and didn't leave a note, there'll be murder done. By the way, Mer, it's "illiterate" ("Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature" or "Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing"), not "alliterate" ("To use alliteration in speech or writing"). Thomas Monson alliterates absolutely all the time; George W. Bush doesn't to any noticeable extent. Those prescribed standards of writing can be a bear, I know.

Do you expect that our political leaders can be held to a high level of accountability, for their actions? (Is this what you, also, expect?)

Elder Packer said that [re: topic title, here]. I am happy to say that I think like the late Hugh B. Brown. (If you were older than that of a child, when he was alive, I would welcome your mature input) Elder Hugh [brown] said that the "right to dissent" (or, actually, "the right of dissent") was something to be vigorously preserved, in the LDS religion. Having said the above, as a basis for thinking freely, I am astounded at the unsoundness of that Elder Packer statement. It is simply something that one would expect former President [of the U.S.] Bill Clinton to have said: not a "man of God". Clinton tried to claim "executive privilege" when it came to his bad personal morals and philandering. I hear Elder Packer saying essentially the same thing, but in different words. (Don't get sidetracked into thinking that I am questioning Boyd K. Packer's faithfulness to his wife: focus on what is being said, here, please). What I hear Elder Packer saying is: "Look at the 'suit': not the man in the 'suit'." Clinton would have been 'delighted', if people had shown so much awe for his position that they then backed away from him, instead of investigating him, in any questionable action. The real question is this: what the American people demand--as a reasonable demand--from their secular leaders is accountability. I, personally, don't see God as having a double standard. Do you?