The Godhead & Grief

[rameumptom]

Traditional Christianity has in its creeds that God is the "unmoved mover." LDS belief is that God is the "Most Moved Mover", which traditional Bible scholar Clark Pinnock and others are beginning to explore in the Open Theism movement.

LDS also believe that God is the most moved mover. He is fully engaged in a relationship with us, which means he opens himself up to us fully so as to enrich us and him in a mutually fulfilling experience of love.

God wept before Enoch before flooding the Earth. Jesus wept before the Nephites and prior to raising Lazarus. God is angered by our sins and rebellion, and shows mercy when we repent. God definitely is fully engaged emotionally in a relationship with us.

[rameumptom]

Yes sir, that's exactly it. It is a person that actually begged for mercy and forgivenss and understands the pain and suffering we added to Crist. Then it becomes gratitude and awe imo and repeated thankfulness of and growth in Christ. :)

I agree with this concept. However, there are many traditional Christians who teach that one must just say, "I believe" and they are saved. There definitely are some very big divides even among traditional Christians.

I think God also experiences real joy when we repent and turn to him. While among the Nephites, after weeping for the sinners, Jesus prayed and then said, "My joy is full" because he sensed the Nephites had truly repented.

I see this joy in the story of the Prodigal Son, as well. I just do not understand St Augustine's concept of the unmoved mover. That just is not a god I'm interested in, because one cannot develop a real relationship with a being who is unmoved and uncaring (especially for those who believe in TULIP, where we have no choice but to be saved or condemned at God's whim). I do like Dr T's description of a relationship with Christ as a real one where we approach with gratitude and repentance and faith, and he lifts us up.

[Seanette]

That just is not a god I'm interested in, because one cannot develop a real relationship with a being who is unmoved and uncaring (especially for those who believe in TULIP, where we have no choice but to be saved or condemned at God's whim).

"TULIP"? I'm not familiar with that one. More info, please?

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Well then I guess there is a lot of grief in heaven....

[macpcmommy]

My Dad and I were discussing this topic. He believes since he is saved by grace, and is covered by the blood of Christ, that God never grieves when we sin.

Sorry if this was already brought up, but what about those who aren't saved by grace? OneEternalSonata, does your dad believe that God doesn't grieve for them either or is that different?

I for one do believe God grieves when we sin. If He wants us to live with Him for eternity, and sin prevents us from doing that, when why wouldn't He grieve? This reminds me of a conversation my husband had with my dad about being saved by grace. It was awkward, because my dad said that we are saved by grace, and being good is our way of saying 'thank you' to Heavenly Father. My husband laughed, thinking my dad was joking. But, he wasn't, so my husband felt awkward and a little guilty. :) Kind of funny.

[OneEternalSonata]

Yes, he does believe that, macpc. =) I agree with you, and I know Jesus has grieved at my side, with me. I've felt it. It is part of His love for me.

[rameumptom]

"TULIP"? I'm not familiar with that one. More info, please?

It is an acronym for Calvin's 5 main points:

Total depravity: Basically, all mankind is totally depraved with no good inside them whatsoever.

Unconditional election: God selects whomever he will at His own whim to be elected, and those individuals are saved regardless, while all others will burn in hell. There is no free will/agency, and all are predestined to heaven or hell.

Limited atonement: Few will be saved by the atonement.

Irresistible grace: Those whom God elects/selects will be given irresistible grace - they cannot help but want to be saved by God. God will cause a change within them that they cannot help but receive, because there is no free will.

Perseverance of the saints: Those chosen will be given the power to persevere through all things to be saved in heaven.

[Seanette]

What a charmingly hopeless outlook. (sigh)

[rameumptom]

It really is a tragic teaching. A friend of mine who attended a major Baptist seminary, and is now a "Christian", says that most Baptist seminaries now tend to hire Calvinists for professors at the seminaries.

This teaching denies the love of God. It twists what John 3:16 is trying to teach us. It turns God into a monster who forces some into heaven, and forces others into hell. If there is no free will, then we are forced one way or the other, by a God who could have simply given everyone irresistible grace to be saved.

TULIP ensures that mankind can have a higher moral standard than God, who to them is the unmoveable mover without any compassion or real love.

[Dr T]

Hi Ram,

How did u come to the conclusion that an unmoved mover can not have any compassion or real love?

[rameumptom]

It is in one of the key creeds of most traditional Christians. For example, here is from the Anglican Church's creeds:

I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Anglicans Online | The Thirty-Nine Articles

The Westminster Confession of Faith:

I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal most just and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

The term "immutable" means that nothing touches God. This means that if someone suffers, it doesn't affect him in any sense of the word. So, when the Bible says God is jealous, loving, angry, etc., it doesn't really mean these things, because the God of the creeds cannot feel any emotion, nor is he affected in any way by what happens to us.

Now, many traditional Christians either do not believe this, or do not know this about their faith. Still, it becomes a major point when Open Theology suddenly insists that the Bible shows God to be the "most moved mover" rather than immutable and without passions.

[Dr T]

I've recently heard of Open Theology and still need to look into it to give my 2 cents on that so I'll wait on that piece but want to make sure you know that you are talking about a theological view of Calvinism but there is also Arminianism. As far as the immutible issue it is really more about being "unmovable" it does not mean God cannot feel or is uncaring IMO. The Calvinsim vs. Arminianism really has a mix of the two in many people's mind.

[rameumptom]

I agree there is a difference between Arminianism and Calvinism. However, many Arminians also believe that God is without body, parts and passions. The Trinitarian creed insists that God has no body nor parts. And given that the description of God as a different substance than us, means that we are not like him at all. His passions would be different than our own.

Comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism

An interesting concept that comes from the comparison is the immutability/aseity of God. If God needs anything, then he cannot be immutable or have aseity. If we insist God does not need us or does not need anything outside himself, we are saying he is immutable. Arminianism should have a hard time with the concept of an immutable God, even though some still insist on it.

For example, here is an interesting article by an Arminian who speaks for God's aseity (and hence, his immutability, since he needs nor desires anything from others, including worship). John Piper Implicitly Denies Aseity | Society of Evangelical Arminians

LDS belief is that God did not make matter, but that it has always existed. We do not believe in ex nihilo creation, rather God formed living beings from matter. God NEEDS other beings, because he finds his greatest happiness in loving relationships. He is filled with joy because he loves his children/creations and they freely choose to love him. He is the most moved Mover.