Coc Letter Of Counsel

[Randy Johnson]

Earlier this morning I read Pres. Veasey's "Letter of Counsel" to the CoC church which among other things enumerated the various PH calls that will be put forward IF he is approved by the special conference coming up the first week of June.

See, this is a perfect example of what I was mentioning to Dale on the other thread. Confusion reigns yet again!!

Here is Pres. Veasey who is President of the CoC Quorum of the 12, who has been designated as the next President/Prophet of the church.

Then you have the CoC First Presidency, which according to CoC doctrine is STILL organized and functioning (unlike the LDS First Presidency which is automatically dissolved upon the death of the President) and from what I have been told is STILL the presiding quorum of the Church.

Ok, the obvious question is : How is it that Pres. Veasey can extend "contigent" PH calls...especially to the Apostleship...when he has not been ordained and thus, does not have the prophetic mantel ie; PH keys to extend such calls?

On the CoC board the reasoning is because of 1) not enough time during conference to "extend calls from scratch" after Pres.V is confirmed......2) that the Lord certainly has already been "working with" ie; inspiring Pres. V with these various PH calls (what happened to the First Presidency?...figure heads?) Say What????

What I am reading is just amazing to me!

There is no PH office of "President Designate". There is no authority bestowed or mantel given that goes with a "designation" is there? Not according to JSIII.

No...once again the RLDS/CoC is putting the "cart before the horse".

But...this same mindset was evident in 1851 with the genesis of the Reorganization as well in the present day.....and so it goes:

Confusion...confusion and yes....more confusion!!

just an observation......

randy

Dawn, Dale or Jared....help me out here....how can this be???

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

If the CoC is the one true church...

A. Then it is possible he is recieving personal revelation. Maybe the other candidates for Prophet are having the same revelations but not discussing them publically.

or...

B. These are his own ideas, and he is waiting for the Lord to confirm those ideas. If he is "approved" as the Prophet, the Lord will tell him that his ideas are right or wrong. If any of his ideas are wrong, he will change them.

You never really know what people are thinking, expecially when they are claiming to speak for God.

Maybe even an LDS Prophet who made a significant change in doctrine had the desire to make the change before he was given the official revelation. For example, the Prophet who granted the priesthood to blacks (sorry, but I can't remember which Prophet this was as it was before my time)...maybe before he was Prophet, he WANTED to give them the priesthood. Maybe he had been praying about it during his entire life. But then one day God gave him the green light on the idea, and THAT was the true revelation. So it wasn't that God commanded him to give blacks the priesthood...it was that God gave his approval.

Just some things to think about...

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 26 2005, 04:24 PM

If the CoC is the one true church...

A.  Then it is possible he is recieving personal revelation.  Maybe the other candidates for Prophet are having the same revelations but not discussing them publically.

or...

B.  These are his own ideas, and he is waiting for the Lord to confirm those ideas.  If he is "approved" as the Prophet, the Lord will tell him that his ideas are right or wrong.  If any of his ideas are wrong, he will change them.

You never really know what people are thinking, expecially when they are claiming to speak for God. 

Maybe even an LDS Prophet who made a significant change in doctrine had the desire to make the change before he was given the official revelation.  For example, the Prophet who granted the priesthood to blacks (sorry, but I can't remember which Prophet this was as it was before my time)...maybe before he was Prophet, he WANTED to give them the priesthood.  Maybe he had been praying about it during his entire life.  But then one day God gave him the green light on the idea, and THAT was the true revelation.  So it wasn't that God commanded him to give blacks the priesthood...it was that God gave his approval.

Just some things to think about...

Thanks for your response!

My basic problem with this scenario is that he has no authority to issue such calls.

Being "designated" bestows nothing upon him.

IMO...those PH calls that were mentioned in the letter most certainly could be extended...just not through Pres. Veasey. They could have appropriately been issued through the presiding quorum ie; The First Presidency. There just simply is no order within the CoC church. No rhyme or reason for how they do things.

I dont think anyone in the CoC is seriously considering that Pres. Veasey will not be confirmed. That would cause WAY WAY to much hardfeelings...given the fact that all those people to whom these calls were issued would have to be told in effect...."uh..hmm...sorry bout this, but...well....the Lord really DIDNT want Pres. Veasey as President....and well, he didnt want you either".

I dont think that is going to happen.

On the CoC board the comment was made about the appropriatness of extending "last minute" calls to those folks...about how it impacts families etc. Of course that is true. But, I dont recall that being a factor when the Prophet Joseph extended calls to serve missions etc. Or for that matter...I marvel that Elder Utchdorf and Elder Bednar were called literally HOURS before they were to be sustained in conference as the newest members of the 12.

It matters not how much "heads up" a person gets before the call is extended, but rather that they know from whom the call comes...and they say simply..."yes, I will go and do what the Lord has commanded". The Lord calls us...we respond.

But, this has always been a basic difference between the CoC and the LDS church.

randy

oh...it was Pres. Kimball who received the revelation on PH being extended to every worthy male. But, it must be remembered...that it was Pres. Kimball as Prophet of the Church, that had continuously petitioned the Lord about this issue...and it was Pres. Kimball through whom the Lord made his will known.

I think there is a huge difference between that event, and what is transpiring within the CoC at this time!!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I really don't know much about the CoC to say if they are disorganized. I guess if they were so terribly disorganized that they couldn't function and were in total chaos it would be a bad thing. But a little disorganization doesn't make a Church false.

The LDS Church is highly organized, runs smoothly, and no one really questions the authority of its leaders.

The same thing existed in the Fascist nations of the 1930's (specifically Italy and Germany). While their leaders did terrible things, they always kept the trains running on time. Things were highly organized, ran smoothly, and people didn't question authority.

But their cruelty was proof that they were not the ONE TRUE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.

On the other hand, the United States is divided between two completely different parties...Liberals and Conservatives...and a lot of others in between the two extremes. No one can seem to agree on anything, expecially moral issues. Many of our citizens make uneducated votes, based more on emotional responses than on facts. Our education system is pretty weak. Our medical system is terrible (but maybe the best we can do). Our system of voting has shown itself to be flawed a few times.

But our generally good morals and respect for freedom have made us into what we believe is the ONE TRUE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. If you don't believe that, you are not a patriot.

I hate to make this comparison, because I don't want to imply that LDS are fascists. Of course they are not. They still respect freedom (though they like to influence your use of such freedom). Unlike certain fascists, they have good morals. I am only drawing a parallel between their highly organized systems.

If the USA can be the one true system of government, which we want to spread throughout the world...despite being far less organized and structured than fascists...why can't the CoC be the One True Church, despite being far less organized than the LDS?

For the record, I don't believe either Church is the one true church, I hate fascist governments, and I think the United States is one of the best places to live.

[Snow]

I'm sure our friends in the CoC have a different perspective but I can't imagine that the attitude of CoC ex-President could exist in the LDS Church. He resigned as prophet and said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life. Huh? How do you just decided to no longer be choosen of God as his mouthpiece. President McMurray's resignation was preceded by President Wallace Smith.

Can you imagine President Hinkley deciding to no longer fullfill his calling?

[Jason]

Snow,

How is that any different than the LDS "emeritus" status of various GA's?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jason@May 26 2005, 08:40 PM

Snow,

How is that any different than the LDS "emeritus" status of various GA's?

How is the prophet/president of the CoC voluntarily stepping down in order to get on with the next phase of his life any different than a member of the 2nd Quorum of Seventies being released from a non-permanent calling?

Gee Jason, that's a tough one - not.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Maybe in the CoC it is not considered a permanent calling? Is there scriptural evidence that being a Prophet is something that you must do until death? Maybe it is possible to stop "speaking for God" and let someone else take over, without being considered a "fallen prophet"? Maybe God actually commanded him to step down (by sending him a feeling via Holy Spirit) because he felt that he had sacrificed enough of his time for the CoC? Even if there are not examples of this happening in the Bible or BoM...doctrines are constantly changing...if God wants to change the rules, he can change the rules. If Hinckley decides to step down to retire, how do we know it would not be an "inspired" decision?

Just a thought.

[Jenda]

It was a permanent calling, till W. Wallace Smith got alzheimers and could no longer function as prophet. That is why he designated his son and left several years prior to his death.

As far as the letter of counsel, it is just another step towards the dark side.

[Dale]

Hi,

Randy personally the Community of Christ can do anything it wants any way it wants by revelation & the idea of common concent. There's no confusion only a way of doing things you doubt is right. If the First Presidency suggested he make such calls then he was acting with their authority until he got his official ordination. He's ordained now I affirm his leadership. The calls were given out of discussions with the First Presidency & not just something he did without the authority & the advice of the remaining members of the First Presidency.

Personally the Restoration branches have been a curse to the church. If the Remnant LDS Church is the right restoration church I wish you well. And for the benifit of our LDS friends perhaps they are right & we are wrong.

As far as W. Grant McMurray stepping down his illness was pretty serious & God can release him from his calling. I choose God over tradition in this area.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Dale@Jun 17 2005, 07:42 PM

Hi,

Randy personally the Community of Christ can do anything it wants any way it wants by revelation & the idea of common concent. There's no confusion only a way of doing things you doubt is right. If the First Presidency suggested he make such calls then he was acting with their authority until he got his official ordination. He's ordained now I affirm his leadership. The calls were given out of discussions with the First Presidency & not just something he did without the authority & the advice of the remaining members of the First Presidency.

Personally the Restoration branches have been a curse to the church. If the Remnant LDS Church is the right restoration church I wish you well. And for the benifit of our LDS friends perhaps they are right & we are wrong.

As far as W. Grant McMurray stepping down his illness was pretty serious & God can release him from his calling. I choose God over tradition in this area.

Sincerely,

Dale

Dale,

Just to be clear...I am LDS.

I agree...the CoC can do anything it wants to. It has in the past...and it will continue to.

You state that Pres. Veasy issued those "conditional" calls after consulting with the First Presidency. Maybe I missed it...but, where does it say that? Secondly, EVEN if he did...the very fact remains that he did not have the authority to issue such calls.

In the LDS church, I will admit...we have a very clear and unmistakable "chain of command". There is never a moment when we as a body of saints do not know who the Presiding Authority is...and to whom we should look for the Lord to give guidance and direction...and through whom his revelations will come.

In the CoC...it is a totally different ballgame. However, to be fair...the precedent was set in 1851 when the Reorganization first began to evolve. There was no order then either with respect to this. All sorts of people were having this revelation, or that dream....all of which were taken as from the Lord, yet those individuals were not ones in a position of authority to receive such things. The Lords house is a house of order.

Regarding Pres. McMurrays personal struggles..whatever they were or are....be they physical or spiritual in nature...they are serious. I wish him well.

Dale, could you investigate something for me though? On another board...the statement was made and was said to be verified through the "Goverment patent offices" that the CoC has officially abandoned the name of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I was told and was under the impression that the CoC still maintains that name for legallity/Corporation purposes.

It was also told to me that the Restoration Branch movement was pursuing vigorously the possibility of regaining the use of the RLDS name.

Could you try to verify what the CoC position is on this?

Randy

[ThunderFire]

Originally posted by Snow@May 26 2005, 07:29 PM

I'm sure our friends in the CoC have a different perspective but I can't imagine that the attitude of CoC ex-President could exist in the LDS Church. He resigned as prophet and said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life. Huh? How do you just decided to no longer be choosen of God as his mouthpiece. President McMurray's resignation was preceded by President Wallace Smith.

Can you imagine President Hinkley deciding to no longer fullfill his calling?

Brother McMurray has Parkinsens disease and I visited with someone who saw him recently and stated that he is in pretty bad shape (almost unable to walk). I would hope that anyone who could not do the material duties of their job would step down instead of letting pride rule.

In Chirst I Serve,

Thundefire

[Snow]

Originally posted by ThunderFire+Jun 19 2005, 02:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ThunderFire @ Jun 19 2005, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@May 26 2005, 07:29 PM

I'm sure our friends in the CoC have a different perspective but I can't imagine that the attitude of CoC ex-President could exist in the LDS Church. He resigned as prophet and said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life. Huh? How do you just decided to no longer be choosen of God as his mouthpiece. President McMurray's resignation was preceded by President Wallace Smith.

Can you imagine President Hinkley deciding to no longer fullfill his calling?

Brother McMurray has Parkinsens disease and I visited with someone who saw him recently and stated that he is in pretty bad shape (almost unable to walk). I would hope that anyone who could not do the material duties of their job would step down instead of letting pride rule.

In Chirst I Serve,

Thundefire

Personally I think that a prophet could just let God decide if and when to remove him due to physical limitations but that is neither her nor there since Parkinsons Disease is not the reason ex-President McMurray resigned.

Questions & Answers

By Presidents Kenneth N. Robinson and Peter A. Judd

What circumstances led to Grant McMurray’s resignation?

Brother McMurray has indicated that he made some inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in personal and family life. These circumstances led him to resign from his position as president of the Community of Christ and request release from priesthood office. (from the CoC website).

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ThunderFire+Jun 19 2005, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ThunderFire @ Jun 19 2005, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@May 26 2005, 07:29 PM

I'm sure our friends in the CoC have a different perspective but I can't imagine that the attitude of CoC ex-President could exist in the LDS Church. He resigned as prophet and said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life. Huh? How do you just decided to no longer be choosen of God as his mouthpiece. President McMurray's resignation was preceded by President Wallace Smith.

Can you imagine President Hinkley deciding to no longer fullfill his calling?

Brother McMurray has Parkinsens disease and I visited with someone who saw him recently and stated that he is in pretty bad shape (almost unable to walk). I would hope that anyone who could not do the material duties of their job would step down instead of letting pride rule.

In Chirst I Serve,

Thundefire

Not saying that is not true, but it is very hard to believe. He walked away from the church on his own two feet less than 6 months ago. Parkinson's doesn't progress that rapidly. It is s l o w l y degenerative. It would take years to get from where it was when he walked away to not being able to walk, if that ever occurred. I have never seen a person with Parkinson's disease not be able to walk, anyway. Use a cane, yes, but now walk, no.

[ThunderFire]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 20 2005, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 20 2005, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -ThunderFire@Jun 19 2005, 03:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@May 26 2005, 07:29 PM

I'm sure our friends in the CoC have a different perspective but I can't imagine that the attitude of CoC ex-President could exist in the LDS Church. He resigned as prophet and said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life. Huh? How do you just decided to no longer be choosen of God as his mouthpiece. President McMurray's resignation was preceded by President Wallace Smith.

Can you imagine President Hinkley deciding to no longer fullfill his calling?

Brother McMurray has Parkinsens disease and I visited with someone who saw him recently and stated that he is in pretty bad shape (almost unable to walk). I would hope that anyone who could not do the material duties of their job would step down instead of letting pride rule.

In Chirst I Serve,

Thundefire

Not saying that is not true, but it is very hard to believe. He walked away from the church on his own two feet less than 6 months ago. Parkinson's doesn't progress that rapidly. It is s l o w l y degenerative. It would take years to get from where it was when he walked away to not being able to walk, if that ever occurred. I have never seen a person with Parkinson's disease not be able to walk, anyway. Use a cane, yes, but now walk, no.

I am sure depression may be a large part of this also. The guys just got to be hurting bad and in need of prayer.

Thunderfire

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ThunderFire+Jun 20 2005, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ThunderFire @ Jun 20 2005, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jun 20 2005, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by -ThunderFire@Jun 19 2005, 03:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@May 26 2005, 07:29 PM

I'm sure our friends in the CoC have a different perspective but I can't imagine that the attitude of CoC ex-President could exist in the LDS Church. He resigned as prophet and said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life. Huh? How do you just decided to no longer be choosen of God as his mouthpiece. President McMurray's resignation was preceded by President Wallace Smith.

Can you imagine President Hinkley deciding to no longer fullfill his calling?

Brother McMurray has Parkinsens disease and I visited with someone who saw him recently and stated that he is in pretty bad shape (almost unable to walk). I would hope that anyone who could not do the material duties of their job would step down instead of letting pride rule.

In Chirst I Serve,

Thundefire

Not saying that is not true, but it is very hard to believe. He walked away from the church on his own two feet less than 6 months ago. Parkinson's doesn't progress that rapidly. It is s l o w l y degenerative. It would take years to get from where it was when he walked away to not being able to walk, if that ever occurred. I have never seen a person with Parkinson's disease not be able to walk, anyway. Use a cane, yes, but now walk, no.

I am sure depression may be a large part of this also. The guys just got to be hurting bad and in need of prayer.

Thunderfire

Well, that's a different question. We should certainly keep him in our prayers.