God the Father - Jehovah, Jesus Christ - Jehovah

[The_Seeker]

I've been having Bible study sessions with the Jehovah's Witnesses (No worries, my testimony of the Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints remains intact). They believe that Jehovah is God the Father, not Jesus Christ.

Speaking as someone who used to be a JW and is now LDS, the idea that YWHW of the Old Testament was actually Jesus Christ was a tough one to wrap my head around at first. It smacked of blasphemy to me. After studying it out in my mind I think I understand how it would work, but I'm so used to associating "Jehovah" with "God the Father" that it still trips me up mentally sometimes.

[billsmith]

Try reading the Old Testament in Hebrew. No seriously, it makes things a LOT more clear. Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

Elohim is the plural form of the word Eloh, which is POSSIBLY a derivative of the word El which means "God". While latter-day prophets have told us this is the name of God the Father, it may be more applicable as a title than an actual name. El is used regularly throughout the scriptures in names - IsraEL, LamuEL, SamuEL, IshmaEL, NathaniEL, etc.

Jehovah is an Anglicized version of the German word Iehovah, translated from the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH (YHVH), most likely pronounced as Yahweh and most likely a derivative of the Hebrew phrase "I Am", a first person point of view statement of existence. The original pronunciation and meaning of YHWH is lost due to a Hebrew proscription against speaking (and eventually against writing) the name of God.

First off, God the Father has ALWAYS used YHWH as his intermediary with this earth, even before the fall. Even in the creation, YHWH did the actual work on behalf of the Father. Secondly, The fall of Adam was not a complete separation from God (YHWH), but a removal from the presence of God. The best analogy here might be parents kicking their adult child out of the house. You don't live with them anymore, but you still get phone calls (prayer) whenever you want and the occassional holiday get together. Also, there are several instances throughout scripture where God the Father comes to visit - Steven in the NT and Joseph Smith among others. Therefore the "seperation" wasn't a complete and total seperation from any and all contact with the Father (or with YHWH), but was a removal from His presence. Where before the fall Adam had the full-time companionship of YHWH, after the fall he (and we) could only have the full-time companionship of the Holy Ghost.

The translators of the Old Testament were men and did not have spiritual revelation to help them in their translation and many of the punctuations are largely arbitrary. In many instances where the name of God (YHWH) was written in the original texts, it was replaced with the word "Adonai" by Hebrew scribes (due to the proscription mentioned above). "Adonai" was then translated into the KJV as "Lord" (usually with caps, but not always). Therefore most instances of the word "Lord" in the OT refer to YHWH aka Jehovah. Occassionally in the OT the word "Lord" refers to earthly kings and occassionally (often written as "The Lord God") refers to God the Father where it was translated from the Hebrew "Elohim", but the KJV translators weren't always consistent.

So read the OT in the original Hebrew. That way you can see where Elohim and YHVH are used and know which verses refer to which member of the Godhead. I would also suggest doing a search on LDS.org for articles that mention the names Elohim and Jehovah, I know there are tons of expositions by modern prophets regarding just this question. And lastly, you should read Jesus the Christ by Apostle James E. Talmage - the guy was probably one of the most scholarly of modern prophets.

Oh, and finally. As far as where our beliefs concerning Jehovah and Jesus Christ come from, visit the LDS.org page on Jesus Christ and read the additional materials and references they list there. Also read the D&C, as that is just chock full of Christ himself answering your question.

This was one of the most scholarly and intelligent explanations I've ever read. Thanks!

[kayne]

Thank you for your response. I had been pondering the question for a couple of hours before I posted this. Over the past day I have pondered a little more and have research several resoruces. I have tried to focus on authoritative resources to answer this question, like the scriptures, conference talks, General Authorities, etc. and I wanted to share what I found. I would like to start with a great scripture in D&C.

D&C 121:32 According to that which was ordained (purpose of the earth) in the midst of the Council (of Heaven) of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

Specifically what I gleaned from this scripture is relative to the relationship of our Father in Heaven to all of the other Gods in Heaven. The part of the scripture that states "the Eternal God of all other gods" indicates that our Father in Heaven is in a position greater than that of all other Gods in Heaven (this truth is reiterated in Abraham 3). In answering the, question from the original post "If God was the creator of all...then WHO created God?", it seems that the supernal nature of our Father in Heaven with the Council in Heaven is that he is the supreme God in Heaven. Understanding the principle of, the creator is supreme over the created leads me to believe that the position of God the Father as the supreme God over all other Gods in heaven means that he could not have been created by anyone less than himself. There are also several scriptures making clear the eternal nature of the Father, that he is "without beginning of days or end of years". Therefore the answer is that God the Father has always existed, he is truly eternal.

Additionally the Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic” ( History of the Church, 6:311).

Speaking about the eternal nature of our spirit, President Brigham Young stated:

“Mankind are organized of element designed to endure to all eternity; it never had a beginning and never can have an end. There never was a time when this matter, of which you and I are composed, was not in existence, and there never can be a time when it will pass out of existence; it cannot be annihilated.

Relative to our eternal nature, the children are the same as the Parents from whom we sprang. As far as I know there are no scripture that teaches contrary to this principal. God the Father, Eloheim, The Supreme being has always existed, he is truly our very Eternal Father in Heaven.

its taught in D and C everything is matter. we know that matter is not created or destroyed. scriptures also teach we without beginning or end. this draws one logical conclusion as your prophet quotes point out. all matter always existed.

concerning God himself aka The Father. He too always existed. He too passed through his own earth. and succeed in becoming exhalted. another way of pondering this is like this. the plan of salvation is perfect yes? if its perfect it cant be made better can it? so why exactly would another God use an entirely different plan? it defies logic and reason if this plan is perfect than all planets that have human life must in fact use this plan. this means that our Father in Heaven walked through a similar version of this very same plan and passed with flying colors to achieve his own Godhood. i believe varies prophets have said as much. this also brings another fine point.

this particular earth is the only one cruel enough to kill its savior. this also means while other earths go through the same plan of salvation they likely dont follow it exactly to letter. some are probably more righteous earths than this one. we just so happen to live on the only one that was cruel enough to kill Christ. because dont forget Christ is the savior of many worlds not just ours. which one can then mean he not only felt the pains of this entire earths sins he felt it for numerous worlds as well. its an interesting idea i dont claim it as 100% fact but logic does point me to this direction and i cant find a compelling reason to think otherwise.

also somewhere in the scriptures it points out yes He has many worlds but when talking to us he speaks strictly of this world. so anything he saids to us is relative to this world and this world alone so in that aspect He is the supreme God of Gods. concerning this world He has no equal.

one also needs to understand that when referring to The Spirit of The Lord what is that? it is the Holy Ghost its not Christ. so in all reality the 3 of them speak interchangeably constantly. The Father gives Christ permission to speak on his behalf. Christ speaks by using the Holy Ghost. so if you follow the chain really The Holy Ghost speaks for Christ then he speaks for the Father. and on occassion the Father and Christ do distinctly seperate themselves but by and large its Christ speaking to us which is really the Holy Ghost speaking to us.

you might say that makes no sense. consider this for a moment. what is the unpardonable sin? its not to deny Christ. you can do that and escape hell. but to deny the Holy Ghost is the unpardonable sin in other words if you have bore witness to The Holy Ghost then denying it and screws you in a very bad way. why is this? because as a spirit he speaks directly to our spirit. this is how Christ bears witness to us. he needs a spirit to do this. this saids an interesting point about the nature of deity that deity for some reason requires a spirit to bear witness to us i dont know why but thats the way it is a spirit is required to bear witness to us in all things. the spirit speaks to prophets. the spirit speaks to people praying about the book of mormon. the spirit gives us promptings. without this spirit we would receive no actual revelation and would certainly be incapable of denying the Holy Ghost and being unable to commit the unpardonable sin.

so an interesting way of putting that is God The Father could come down and speak to me face to face. but if spoke minus the Holy Ghost or if the Holy Ghost did not come down as well so it was just God the Father. i could deny him to his face and not ever commit the unpardonable sin because the unpardonable sin is strictly to deny The Holy Ghost. so the Holy Ghost must surely come down with Him to bear witness to me. admittely im sure God the Father has other ways of etching a sure witness into my soul but the unpardonable sin says nothing of that so i highly doubt such an occurence would happen and yet not carry and equal amount of punishment for denying it.

another interesting note. how does Satan come to us? as a spirit right? the two work on a similar charasteristic. the both prompt us and speak to us in a similar way. they operate in similar opposition to one another. both capable of compelling us to feel a certain way with great intensity. perhaps it is needed that The Holy Ghost acts in direct opposition to Satan because they are both spirits and possess that unique trait that is neccessary for even Christ to bear witness to us through the Holy Ghost. afterall i would think if this is not neccessary the Holy Ghost would not exist. there would be no point to his existence yet he exists and his the third member of the God head standing equal with Christ and The Father.

again a lot of this is my personal opinion but logically it seems to make sense. and i take no shame in attempting to understand the nature of God. i feel its neccessary one should understand what is God before bowing down to God and i feel he feels the same way.

ill say it like this. perhaps some think i saddled The Lord with a limit on his power and he says dont limit his power. this is not true. The Lord does possess limits. one is he cannot cease to be God. that is a limit a restriction. yet is it really? cant cease to be God? well He certainly is doing ok for Himself. so any so called limits are purely the nature of deity no more than my dog cant speak english. not a limit just the nature of dog. and as i said i think the proof in my claim lies in the fact the Holy Ghost does in fact exist and so many references to pouring out His Spirit and the importance of the Holy Ghost and how he always speaks to us through the Holy Ghost

again not fact not divine revelation just conclusions i think make pretty good sense.