The Church In China

[Guest Cellowaif]

Dear Friends,

I am currently in China right now teaching English to children in a boarding school. As you know, China has not yet opened up it's doors to our missionaries. But, the members that are here can teach to their own families. The group of mormons that are here are allowed to hold church privately. If someone asks about the church, I can agree but I cannot add on. You cannot believe how this pains me. I know I can spread the love I feel by Jesus, but I cannot say why. There are currently around 300 members in China. I know I can change someone's life by showing Jesus's love through me. I struggle though. My roommate who is not mormon, reads anti-mormon books and it breaks my heart. I miss YSA and institute every week. You cannot know how important the church is to you until it is nearly striped of you. Go to church my friends. Be so grateful you can pray publicly and express your testimony to anyone you wish. If they do not listen or cannot, show them the love that you feel from the church. Read the book of mormon as if you life depended on it. My prayers are with you.

Your Sister,

Michelle

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Cellowaif@Sep 7 2005, 11:47 PM

Dear Friends,

I am currently in China right now teaching English to children in a boarding school.  As you know, China has not yet opened up it's doors to our missionaries.  But, the members that are here can teach to their own families.  The group of mormons that are here are allowed to hold church privately.  If someone asks about the church, I can agree but I cannot add on.  You cannot believe how this pains me.  I know I can spread the love I feel by Jesus, but I cannot say why.  There are currently around 300 members in China.  I know I can change someone's life by showing Jesus's love through me.  I struggle though.  My roommate who is not mormon, reads anti-mormon books and it breaks my heart.  I miss YSA and institute every week.  You cannot know how important the church is to you until it is nearly striped of you.  Go to church my friends.  Be so grateful you can pray publicly and express your testimony to anyone you wish.  If they do not listen or cannot, show them the love that you feel from the church.  Read the book of mormon as if you life depended on it.  My prayers are with you.

Your Sister,

Michelle

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Thank you for sharing this. Stay strong.

[leeuniverse]

Tell your friend that if he wants to have a brain and not be brainwashed, he needs to withhold his judgments and also read the same amount of LDS Books and Scholarship.

He can start here http://www.fairlds.org

Any person who is still "fair-minded" and humble, will easily see the bearing false witness that occurs with anti-mormonism when comparing the two. It's not hard to see either, just take any negative claim against the Church, and the full truth tells a different story.

[Jason]

Lee,

How are the anti-mormon books any more dishonest than the "faith-promoting" ones the Church put's out?

Both are clearly guilty of being intellectually dishonest, IMO.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 19 2005, 11:23 AM

Lee,

How are the anti-mormon books any more dishonest than the "faith-promoting" ones the Church put's out? 

Both are clearly guilty of being intellectually dishonest, IMO.

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Stated as a true lost soul. One who is blind will never see and you are blinded.

[Fiannan]

Amazing, a very sincere post started this thread and already some naysayer wants to re-direct attention to their own agenda.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Sep 19 2005, 12:10 PM

Amazing, a very sincere post started this thread and already some naysayer wants to re-direct attention to their own agenda.

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Please is like that.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Sep 19 2005, 12:45 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan@Sep 19 2005, 12:10 PM

Amazing, a very sincere post started this thread and already some naysayer wants to re-direct attention to their own agenda.

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Please is like that.

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He was referring to you... toto

[begood2]

Cellowaif,

Thank you for sharing. :)

I pray that the people of China may someday be allowed the freedoms that the people in the free world have grown accustomed to. :)

[Jason]

Originally posted by begood2@Sep 19 2005, 09:23 PM

Cellowaif,

Thank you for sharing. :)

I pray that the people of China may someday be allowed the freedoms that the people in the free world have grown accustomed to. :)

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That's really the point of this thread (I hope).

May everyone be given the opportunity to choose who or what they will worship.

[Fiannan]

Last time I was in China I went into a DVD store and bought Mel Gibson's "Passion of Christ". I noticed both tourists and Chinese people also buying this DVD. This would have been impossible to buy something that religious 15 years ago.

Technology (internet, entertainment, etc.) will make it increasingly difficult for the communist dictatorship to keep religion away from the people.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Sep 20 2005, 11:06 PM

Last time I was in China I went into a DVD store and bought Mel Gibson's "Passion  of Christ".  I noticed both tourists and Chinese people also buying this DVD.  This would have been impossible to buy something that religious 15 years ago.

Technology (internet, entertainment, etc.) will make it increasingly difficult for the communist dictatorship to keep religion away from the people.

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Well the Lord provides a way... doesn't He?

[leeuniverse]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 19 2005, 11:23 AM

Lee,

How are the anti-mormon books any more dishonest than the "faith-promoting" ones the Church put's out? 

Both are clearly guilty of being intellectually dishonest, IMO.

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1. Actually, no they aren't.

The Church on Sunday's and otherwise is all about teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and making bad men good and good men better. All the facts of history, and especially the distortions thereof by anti-mormonism is irrelevant to this mission and is in fact a distraction. Not everyone is interested in "scholarship".

2. What the Church does is no different than what any other religion does.

Do you think the Catholic Church teaches in Sunday school the "Inquisition" or the "Crusades", or about the wicked Popes of the Church, etc. etc? No they don't. However, the Catholic Church LIKE the LDS Church doesn't at all hide from it's history. For anything essentially on Catholicism can be found in Catholic and otherwise bookstores. The same for mormonism. All of anti-mormonism and the Churches FULL HISTORY is entirely found and addressed in LDS BOOKSTORES.

In otherwords, know-one is "hiding" anything nor being intellectually dishonest.

I should know especially, since I've been non-religious as well as a Christian of multiple religions, a basic believing LDS, embracer of Eastern thought and practices, anti-LDS, and now a full and forever knower of the Truth.

So, you can't tell me what the Church does and doesn't do, because I've been on all sides of the fence.

The Church IS literally the Lords Kingdom in the last days..... But, that's my witness, and one which took a great deal of balanced and humble experience and study to learn. How much blood is on your hands in the endeavor to know what the Absolute "Truth" is?

[Jason]

Originally posted by leeuniverse@Sep 21 2005, 12:28 AM

1. Actually, no they aren't.

The Church on Sunday's and otherwise is all about teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and making bad men good and good men better.  All the facts of history, and especially the distortions thereof by anti-mormonism is irrelevant to this mission and is in fact a distraction.  Not everyone is interested in "scholarship".

First of all, Im not talking about ay specific actions of the LDS church (attempted assasination of Governor Boggs, Mountain Meadows, etc). Im talking about doctrines. Im talking about polygamy, blacks & priesthood, endowment alterations, baptism for health, sealing men to GA's instead of family members, and the like.

In reference to those things, the LDS church has tried hard to whitewash the doctrinal "errors" of the past, and will not admit in Church or anywhere else what it has taught and done.

2. What the Church does is no different than what any other religion does.

Do you think the Catholic Church teaches in Sunday school the "Inquisition" or the "Crusades", or about the wicked Popes of the Church, etc. etc?  No they don't. 

Actually, I attended several classes at my local Roman Catholic Parish were we discussed the sins of past Popes, the Inquisition, and the Crusades. Father Robert Fox was very willing to discuss the errors of the past, in hopes of promoting a brigher future.

He is a very forward thinking Priest.

However, the Catholic Church LIKE the LDS Church doesn't at all hide from it's history.  For anything essentially on Catholicism can be found in Catholic and otherwise bookstores.  The same for mormonism.  All of anti-mormonism and the Churches FULL HISTORY is entirely found and addressed in LDS BOOKSTORES.

Here you make another error. The Catholic church does not publish books on it's errors. Neither does the LDS church. Both will allow private individuals to do so, but neither has published under it's own authority books or articles of this type.

In otherwords, know-one is "hiding" anything nor being intellectually dishonest.

I should know especially, since I've been non-religious as well as a Christian of multiple religions, a basic believing LDS, embracer of Eastern thought and practices, anti-LDS, and now a full and forever knower of the Truth.

So, you can't tell me what the Church does and doesn't do, because I've been on all sides of the fence.

The Church IS literally the Lords Kingdom in the last days.....  But, that's my witness, and one which took a great deal of balanced and humble experience and study to learn.  How much blood is on your hands in the endeavor to know what the Absolute "Truth" is?

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Been there and done all that.

[Lindy]

Cello~

I am impressed.....teaching children, living in China AND staying true to your faith! Don't give up teaching by example....you don't know how many seeds you plant that may grow in later years. Keep strong! You're Awesome!

[leeuniverse]

attempted assasination of Governor Boggs

Hearsay does not equal "evidence" against the Church complicity.

Pretty sad if that is your level of intellectual inquiry.

Mountain Meadows, etc

Again, hearsay, in fact there is direct evidence AGAINST such with the letter Brigham sent but arrived LATE, which in fact instructed the Saints to leave the party alone.

Im talking about doctrines. Im talking about polygamy

Still doctrine, but as in times past, simply not currently practiced.

blacks & priesthood

More specifically, ONLY "Africans" and the Priesthood. Nothing to do with "color", for thousands of blacks from several races WHERE given the Priesthood. It was a Ban in the Scriptures, so the Church couldn't change it until God revealed it so.

Again, there is scriptural precedent of the Priesthood, and even the Gospel itself having "selective" use by certain groups of people.

endowment alterations

Why don't you learn the difference between the reveled Eternal Gospel Principles taught in Scripture and the Temple, compared to methodology's used to teach these principles.

In otherwords, anything can change in the Temple, as long as the revealed principles and symbolisms are still taught. Which they are.

Nothing has changed related to such.

You should listen to this audio which touches on this a bit, and thus learn something.

http://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/Mormo...005-Masonry.mp3

baptism for health

Not sure where your going with this. You seem to find the most "scant" evidentiary of things to dwell on. But anyway, such was an ancient practice for health. I'm guessing which isn't needed today, since we have shower's.

sealing men to GA's instead of family members

Instead of, or in addition too? I'm guessing again that you do not understand the practice nor how much or when it needs to be done. It is a special rare ordinance, like at least one other special and rare ordinance (Calling and Election made sure).

In reference to those things, the LDS church has tried hard to whitewash the doctrinal "errors" of the past, and will not admit in Church or anywhere else what it has taught and done.

Again, what is "whitewashed"???

These things are irrelevant to the Gospel taught on Sunday accept as they might apply when the situation requires it.

Do not assume that your negative paradigm and judgments of these issues is somehow the "truth", and thus need to be addressed. It IS NOT, and thus they DO NOT.

Actually, I attended several classes at my local Roman Catholic Parish were we discussed the sins of past Popes, the Inquisition, and the Crusades. Father Robert Fox was very willing to discuss the errors of the past, in hopes of promoting a brigher future.

He is a very forward thinking Priest.

Well, good for you and him.... But most religions, teacher's and preachers focus on teaching the Gospel of Christ, rather than every nuance of scholarship and history in their Sunday classes. Note also, that unlike MMM or Boggs, there is no evidence at all that the "Church" was involved. Compared to the Inquisitions and the Crusades, of course how are they going to "hide" from it??? It's irrefutable history.

I know having been active in almost 50 Wards of the Church that once in awhile as it might come up and apply, all of the above issues that you assume is so terrible have been discussed briefly. But again, it goes right by to the Gospel message. Such things are for addressing in Church colleges, Institutes of Religion, etc. They have nothing to do with the Church that is important. It is only YOUR negative and misinformed view of the issues that make YOU think they "should" be addressed. But guess what, such does not make history, nor the Restored Gospel that needs to be addressed during precious Church time in which the focus is changing the souls and actions of men for the better.

What you speak of is an "Academic" excersise..... And as such it belongs in "Academic" settings, such as in a small degree forums like these.

Here you make another error. The Catholic church does not publish books on it's errors. Neither does the LDS church. Both will allow private individuals to do so, but neither has published under it's own authority books or articles of this type.

Actually, I make no such error, for I said no such thing. You have created it out of thin air. Read what I wrote more carefully again. I meant "LDS Bookstores" in it's general common meaning, I wasn't saying the "Churches" bookstores.

Been there and done all that.

Maybe you think so..... But there is clearly a lot more for you to learn and understand, given your several "kindergarten" understandings of LDS matters. Quite telling especially when you use your judgments of MMM or Boggs in your argument. But, that is how it is with every single anti pet peeve against this Church. Every one is a judgment based on poor and small amounts of fact usage. Using a little truth to tell great lies....

[leeuniverse]

wHAT's with the "quoting" thing?

[Snow]

Originally posted by leeuniverse@Sep 20 2005, 10:28 PM

2. What the Church does is no different than what any other religion does.

Do you think the Catholic Church teaches in Sunday school the "Inquisition" or the "Crusades", or about the wicked Popes of the Church, etc. etc?  No they don't.  However, the Catholic Church LIKE the LDS Church doesn't at all hide from it's history.  For anything essentially on Catholicism can be found in Catholic and otherwise bookstores.  The same for mormonism.  All of anti-mormonism and the Churches FULL HISTORY is entirely found and addressed in LDS BOOKSTORES.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of scholarship on all things LDS, including the controversial stuff comes from either the Church proper or Mormon individuals.

Seldom do you ever get anything new, honest and well done from the critics or anti-Mormons.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 21 2005, 06:42 AM

First of all, Im not talking about ay specific actions of the LDS church (attempted assasination of Governor Boggs, Mountain Meadows, etc).  Im talking about doctrines.  Im talking about polygamy, blacks & priesthood, endowment alterations, baptism for health, sealing men to GA's instead of family members, and the like.   

Now really Jason, did you honestly expect to not get caught in a deliberate deception of history?

[Jason]

Hearsay does not equal "evidence" against the Church complicity.

Pretty sad if that is your level of intellectual inquiry.

I believe that Smith ordered Rockwell to kill Boggs. There's no proof. I personally believe that Smith had motive. That's all.

Again, hearsay, in fact there is direct evidence AGAINST such with the letter Brigham sent but arrived LATE, which in fact instructed the Saints to leave the party alone.

I didn't accuse Brigham of the MMM. I blame Jedidah Grant, his counselor for the MMM. But that's not really what Im here to discuss.

Im talking about doctrines. Im talking about polygamy

Still doctrine, but as in times past, simply not currently practiced.

More specifically, ONLY "Africans" and the Priesthood. Nothing to do with "color", for thousands of blacks from several races WHERE given the Priesthood. It was a Ban in the Scriptures, so the Church couldn't change it until God revealed it so.

Again, there is scriptural precedent of the Priesthood, and even the Gospel itself having "selective" use by certain groups of people.

Baloney. Young stated that the mark of cain, besides having black skin, was a wide nose and thick lips. That indigenous peoples were given the priesthood in south pacific nations was an accident, not the rule. Rudger Clawson's diaries prove that point quite clearly.

Why don't you learn the difference between the reveled Eternal Gospel Principles taught in Scripture and the Temple, compared to methodology's used to teach these principles.

Why don't you bother to study the significance of maintaining rituals as revealed, instead of trying to "improve" them. The whole significance of a ritual is to keep it the same. Not to change it with every technological and cultural innovation.

In otherwords, anything can change in the Temple, as long as the revealed principles and symbolisms are still taught. Which they are.

Nothing has changed related to such.

Again, that's baloney. Major changes have occured since the dedication of the St. George temple. But since this forum prevents us from being specific (unless we are allowed to discuss things that are NOT currently in your temple ceremonies) we are at an impasse.

Not sure where your going with this. You seem to find the most "scant" evidentiary of things to dwell on. But anyway, such was an ancient practice for health. I'm guessing which isn't needed today, since we have shower's.

Obviously I know much more than you do about your temple changes, including the baptism for health.

If you ever want to learn more, just send me a PM.

Instead of, or in addition too? I'm guessing again that you do not understand the practice nor how much or when it needs to be done. It is a special rare ordinance, like at least one other special and rare ordinance (Calling and Election made sure).

Again, your ignorance is appaling. Sealing men to men was not an exception, it was the rule. Wilford Woodruff changed the practice during his tenure. If you really want to learn more, just send me a PM.

Again, what is "whitewashed"???

These things are irrelevant to the Gospel taught on Sunday accept as they might apply when the situation requires it.

Do not assume that your negative paradigm and judgments of these issues is somehow the "truth", and thus need to be addressed. It IS NOT, and thus they DO NOT.

Funny, but Mormons died for those "irrelevant" gospel doctrines. I guess they died in vain. Such is the life of a marytr.

Actually, I make no such error, for I said no such thing. You have created it out of thin air. Read what I wrote more carefully again. I meant "LDS Bookstores" in it's general common meaning, I wasn't saying the "Churches" bookstores.

Ive never seen an "LDS bookstore". I've seen Deseret Book and Seagull Book, but I've never seen an "LDS bookstore".

Maybe you think so..... But there is clearly a lot more for you to learn and understand, given your several "kindergarten" understandings of LDS matters. Quite telling especially when you use your judgments of MMM or Boggs in your argument. But, that is how it is with every single anti pet peeve against this Church. Every one is a judgment based on poor and small amounts of fact usage. Using a little truth to tell great lies....

So im the one in "kindergarden" but I know more than you? You've already show us just how ill informed you are on your own temple ceremonies, and that you've apparenlty never read Jedidah Grant's sermons in the months previous to MMM. Sooo.....If im still in kindergarden, that must put you down in preschool?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 22 2005, 03:32 PM

So im the one in "kindergarden" but I know more than you?  You've already show us just how ill informed you are on your own temple ceremonies, and that you've apparenlty never read Jedidah Grant's sermons in the months previous to MMM.  Sooo.....If im still in kindergarden, that must put you down in preschool?

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Okay guys, this discussion (read: argument) is over. What started out as a lovely post on valuing the ability to worship freely has turned into the septillionth argument involving the most tired anti-arguments used. Jason, this is not an anti-LDS talk forum, it's an LDS talk forum. If you disagree with the way the LDS church has been run or is run now by the Lord, this isn't the place to spread your attacks. Thanks.

[Fiannan]

Amen Apostleknight

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Sep 23 2005, 01:31 PM

Amen Apostleknight

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I soooooo agree!!!

[leeuniverse]

Just to clarify.... Jason, I know well about the Temple and it's "changes" and have studied the words of ALL "character's" in LDS history. I've also studied almost every anti-mormon book, and most books related to the Church in exhistance. So, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll judge by what is known and the full facts presume. Good luck.....

Back to talking about the Church in China....

[Jason]

Originally posted by leeuniverse@Sep 28 2005, 12:08 PM

Just to clarify....  Jason, I know well about the Temple and it's "changes" and have studied the words of ALL "character's" in LDS history.  I've also studied almost every anti-mormon book, and most books related to the Church in exhistance.  So, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll judge by what is known and the full facts presume.  Good luck.....

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I somehow doubt you know everything I do with regards to the Temple ceremonies. That said, if you do, then you're being dishonest, and that's a no-no for a Mormon.