Why Aren't Mormon's Jewish?

[Guest uofumastersgirl]

I had a friend ask me why mormons aren't Jewish if Christ was Jewish. She said she had been thinking about it for a while, but she couldn't figure out if Jesus was Jewish why aren't mormons? I had a hard time trying to explain. Could someone help me out with this?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by uofumastersgirl@Sep 12 2005, 10:31 PM

I had a friend ask me why mormons aren't Jewish if Christ was Jewish.  She said she had been thinking about it for a while, but she couldn't figure out if Jesus was Jewish why aren't mormons?  I had a hard time trying to explain.  Could someone help me out with this?

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You are speaking of linage, not religion? Christ came through the Jewish linage, but His religion, as you remember was quite different than that of the traditions of His time.

[Traveler]

A little history here might be helpful. About 200 BC the Jewish people began a rebellion against Syria that had taken over from the Babylonians. A Jewish family known as the Maccabees led the rebellion against king Antiochus Eppiphanes that was trying to wipe out all the Jews. You can read details of this conflict in the LDS Bible Dictionary under Maccabees. The last Maccabee brother was named Jonathan and when he came to power he changed the Jewish religion. Removing the presiding Levite priest he replaced them with his own chosen priest. By the time of Jesus the organization of priest started by Jonathan Maccabee had become quite prominent – they were known as the Pharisees.

The Pharisees are the forerunners of what are known today among the Jewish people as the Rabbis. During the time of Jesus there was also another movement among the Jewish people that become known as the Zealots. Some of the Apostles of Jesus were specifically identified with that movement. In addition the Father of John the Baptist is also believed to be associated with that movement – because he was identified as a Levite priest that was officiating at the temple in Jerusalem. It is also interesting to note that the Dead Sea Scrolls also claimed to have Levitical Priest officiating at the temple at Jerusalem. This is why of all religions of this day the LDS religion alone seems to have interest in the greatest archeological find of ancient script in our day, known as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

From all that is left of this history it would appear that Jesus had close ties to the Levite movement that was still officiating at the temple during that time but Jesus does not appear to have entirely embraced that movement. LDS believe that Jesus restored the authority that was first in Israel with Abraham and Moses as well as with Adam, Enoch and Noah. This “Restoration” is exactly what the LDS teach was brought back through the “prophet of the Gentiles” (Joseph Smith) prophesied anciently as the great prophet of the Last Days sent to prepare for the triumphant return of the Messiah.

The Traveler

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Traveler@Sep 13 2005, 07:45 AM

A little history here might be helpful.  About 200 BC the Jewish people began a rebellion against Syria that had taken over from the Babylonians.  A Jewish family known as the Maccabees led the rebellion against king Antiochus Eppiphanes that was trying to wipe out all the Jews.  You can read details of this conflict in the LDS Bible Dictionary under Maccabees.  The last Maccabee brother was named Jonathan and when he came to power he changed the Jewish religion.  Removing the presiding Levite priest he replaced them with his own chosen priest.  By the time of Jesus the organization of priest started by Jonathan Maccabee had become quite prominent – they were known as the Pharisees. 

The Pharisees are the forerunners of what are known today among the Jewish people as the Rabbis.  During the time of Jesus there was also another movement among the Jewish people that become known as the Zealots.   Some of the Apostles of Jesus were specifically identified with that movement.  In addition the Father of John the Baptist is also believed to be associated with that movement – because he was identified as a Levite priest that was officiating at the temple in Jerusalem.  It is also interesting to note that the Dead Sea Scrolls also claimed to have Levitical Priest officiating at the temple at Jerusalem.   This is why of all religions of this day the LDS religion alone seems to have interest in the greatest archeological find of ancient script in our day, known as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

From all that is left of this history it would appear that Jesus had close ties to the Levite movement that was still officiating at the temple during that time but Jesus does not appear to have entirely embraced that movement.  LDS believe that Jesus restored the authority that was first in Israel with Abraham and Moses as well as with Adam, Enoch and Noah.  This “Restoration” is exactly what the LDS teach was brought back through the “prophet of the Gentiles” (Joseph Smith) prophesied anciently as the great prophet of the Last Days sent to prepare for the triumphant return of the Messiah.

The Traveler

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Again you astound me with the awesome knowledge. Could you give me a reference on that last part of the gentile prophet preparing for the truiumphand return of the Messiah? I know I have read it before, but don't know where..

[Traveler]

Again you astound me with the awesome knowledge. Could you give me a reference on that last part of the gentile prophet preparing for the truiumphand return of the Messiah? I know I have read it before, but don't know where..

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Try the "Testament of Bengerman". This is a document that is believed to be a record of the son of Israel and the blessings he gives to his decendents. Although it is not in current scripture it helps fills the gap between Genesis and Exodus. Some scholars thought such documents were envented during the middle ages - until copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated (script type) from 300 to 600 BC.

BTW - I made an interesting discovery in college. All the time the kids I thought were smart in various classes really were not that smart - they had just read the assigned material was all.

The Traveler

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Traveler@Sep 13 2005, 09:20 AM

Again you astound me with the awesome knowledge. Could you give me a reference on that last part of the gentile prophet preparing for the truiumphand return of the Messiah? I know I have read it before, but don't know where..

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Try the "Testament of Bengerman".  This is a document that is believed to be a record of the son of Israel and the blessings he gives to his decendents.  Although it is not in current scripture it helps fills the gap between Genesis and Exodus.  Some scholars thought such documents were envented during the middle ages - until copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated (script type) from 300 to 600 BC.

BTW - I made an interesting discovery in college.  All the time the kids I thought were smart in various classes really were not that smart - they had just read the assigned material was all.

The Traveler

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It is nice to have someone here that is reading their asignments. Now is that testiment of Bengerman found in the dead sea scrollsl? Because I put it into google and didn't come up with anything.

It might have been when I was studying in the dead sea scrolls a year or so ago that this material was what I read.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 13 2005, 09:48 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@Sep 13 2005, 09:20 AM

Again you astound me with the awesome knowledge. Could you give me a reference on that last part of the gentile prophet preparing for the truiumphand return of the Messiah? I know I have read it before, but don't know where..

←

Try the "Testament of Bengerman".  This is a document that is believed to be a record of the son of Israel and the blessings he gives to his decendents.  Although it is not in current scripture it helps fills the gap between Genesis and Exodus.  Some scholars thought such documents were envented during the middle ages - until copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated (script type) from 300 to 600 BC.

BTW - I made an interesting discovery in college.  All the time the kids I thought were smart in various classes really were not that smart - they had just read the assigned material was all.

The Traveler

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It is nice to have someone here that is reading their asignments. Now is that testiment of Bengerman found in the dead sea scrollsl? Because I put it into google and didn't come up with anything.

It might have been when I was studying in the dead sea scrolls a year or so ago that this material was what I read.

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BTW what I do to make the quote thing work is erase the middle /quote things. It doesn't separate the individual quotes, but it atleast doesn't leave them all out there in chaos.

[Ray]

She didn’t say you were smart, Traveler. She said she was astounded by your knowledge.

And btw, I appreciate your knowledge of historical documents too. :)

[Traveler]

Okay: Now we need some more history. There are 12 Testaments that correspond to the 12 sons of Israel. In addition there are a number of other Testaments that deal with children of the various genealogies of the original sons of Israel, such as Aaron and the Father of Moses (and Aaron) – I do not remember his name.

Some of these documents are fragments meaning we do not have the complete document. Most of the document in existence date back to the “Dark Ages” and are written in Greek and Latin. Scholars had argued that these documents were not scripture for several reasons which include the fact that they were believed to be fabrications of the “Dark Ages” and there were no Hebrew copies. There were rumors that Hebrew copies did exist but had been lost through time. (It was argued that Hebrew copies could be considered scripture.)

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls there was one cave (#4) that contained scriptural documents that were preserved in a different manner than other scrolls – implying that they were considered at the time as sacred scriptures. 50 of these manuscripts caused great controversy in that they were not published or acknowledged till 1993 when they were “leaked” to the public by mistake. Among these manuscripts were 4 Hebrew Testament manuscripts of Levi and his descendents (including Aaron). The documents have been dated from between 300 and 600 BC. Though Benjamin is not listed among the Dead Sea Scrolls the manuscripts that date back to the “Dark Ages” are somewhat vindicated. Benjamin is one of these. Sorry for the confusion.

In the 50th Chapter of Genesis of the Joseph Smith translation there is a reference to a prophet of the last days names Joseph. In the “Testament of Lehi” in the Book of Mormon, Lehi indicates he knew the name of this Joseph prophet. The Testament of Benjamin does not give the name Joseph but does say the name is given in scripture. No one has ever found the scripture with the name except for the Joseph Smith translation – which BTW was written long before any copies of the Testament of Benjamin was available to the public.

There are, however, several references to the “Day of the Gentiles” (also referenced by Benjamin) in current scripture. If there is interest on the forum I will pull together my notes and post something but it will take some time.

The Traveler

[Ray]

I, for one, would appreciate reading your thoughts about this, but I would appreciate your suggestions about which books to read and how to go about getting those books even more. And yes, that means that I do have enough confidence in you to know that you are able to recommend some of the best books from all that might be available.

And btw, if you know how I could go about getting some of those books in e-book format, I would appreciate knowing that too. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Traveler@Sep 13 2005, 11:25 AM

Okay:  Now we need some more history.  There are 12 Testaments that correspond to the 12 sons of Israel.  In addition there are a number of other Testaments that deal with children of the various genealogies of the original sons of Israel, such as Aaron and the Father of Moses (and Aaron) – I do not remember his name. 

Some of these documents are fragments meaning we do not have the complete document.  Most of the document in existence date back to the “Dark Ages” and are written in Greek and Latin.  Scholars had argued that these documents were not scripture for several reasons which include the fact that they were believed to be fabrications of the “Dark Ages” and there were no Hebrew copies.  There were rumors that Hebrew copies did exist but had been lost through time.  (It was argued that Hebrew copies could be considered scripture.)

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls there was one cave (#4) that contained scriptural documents that were preserved in a different manner than other scrolls – implying that they were considered at the time as sacred scriptures.  50 of these manuscripts caused great controversy in that they were not published or acknowledged till 1993 when they were “leaked” to the public by mistake.  Among these manuscripts were 4 Hebrew Testament manuscripts of Levi and his descendents (including Aaron).  The documents have been dated from between 300 and 600 BC.  Though Benjamin is not listed among the Dead Sea Scrolls the manuscripts that date back to the “Dark Ages” are somewhat vindicated.  Benjamin is one of these.  Sorry for the confusion.

In the 50th Chapter of Genesis of the Joseph Smith translation there is a reference to a prophet of the last days names Joseph.  In the “Testament of Lehi” in the Book of Mormon, Lehi indicates he knew the name of this Joseph prophet.  The Testament of Benjamin does not give the name Joseph but does say the name is given in scripture.  No one has ever found the scripture with the name except for the Joseph Smith translation – which BTW was written long before any copies of the Testament of Benjamin was available to the public. 

There are, however, several references to the “Day of the Gentiles” (also referenced by Benjamin) in current scripture.  If there is interest on the forum I will pull together my notes and post something but it will take some time.

The Traveler

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If it wouldn't be too much trouble and my interest is sufficient, I would love to read your notes..

[Ray]

On a slightly different tangent, Mormons ARE Jewish in the sense that the word “Jew” is generically used to refer to members of the house of Israel, and Mormons are of the house of Israel because we are adopted into the house of Israel.

And btw, I have several friends who are have told me they are Jewish, who are not members of the Church, and it’s kinda neat being able to tell them that I’m a Jew too, of the tribe of Ephraim. :)

[Fiannan]

If by Jewish we define Jew as one who holds to the teachings of the Old Testament as inspired of God than technically Christians and Muslims are merely sects of the Jewish religion.

[Guest uofumastersgirl]

Thank you all for your comments. I would love to continue to read them. Maybe one day I will be able to tell my friend this info.

[Ray]

We have touched on two of the correct answers to your question, but there is one more you might like to know about to be able to help your friend understand this issue.

First, like I said, the word “Jew” is generically used to refer to all people from the house of Israel, because most of the Israelites who came back to Jerusalem from Babylon and continued to live in Jerusalem until they were dispersed by the destruction of Jerusalem were descendents of Judah.

But as you can now see, the word “Jew” more particularly refers to people from the tribe of Judah. And btw, the citizens of Samaria were also descendents of Israel (mainly) and they were despised by the other Israelites because they stayed behind in Babylon, or other provinces of Assyria, when the leaders of Assyria allowed them to leave and return to Jerusalem.

Anyway, that’s what a “Jew” is, or to re-state that more simply, a Jew is someone who was or who descended from the Israelites (mainly from the tribe of Judah) who returned and remained in Jerusalem until Jerusalem was destroyed by (I forget who) when they laid siege to the Roman empire.

From there, you can explain that most “Mormons” are not literal “Jews” because most Mormons are literal descendents of other people, but that “Mormons” are still “Jews” in the sense that the word “Jew” is now used generically to refer to all people who are of the house of Israel, and as I'm sure you know, most “Mormons” are adopted into the house of Israel when they accept the covenants offered to Abraham and those who accept him as their father.

[Heather]

i remember when I went in for my baptism interview when I was 8, I asked this exact same question!

[Guest Zarahemla]

I think the best way, and the simplest way, to explain it to your friend is to explain that the tribe of Judah is only one of twelve tribes of the House of Isreal and that as people are baptized into the LDS church, and given a patriarchal blessing, they find out which tribe of the twelve they are descended from. Therefore, members of the church can be descendents of any tribe of Israel, including the tribe of Judah, also known as Jews, though most Jews know of their lineage through their own family history.