Why Jesus Had To Bleed And Die...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Sep 22 2005, 03:43 PM

Probably the biggest issue is that I don't believe this first statement, that God created all this just to 'test' us.  I guess in order for us to agree on the topic of this post, we would have to agree on this basic assumption.

Thanks to all of you who tried to help me understand.

←

Shan, thanks for your patience as we tried to discuss this more. I agree that it can be a bit of a semantical cyclone when discussing things like the atonement and salvation. I think that I understand your concern now, and as you said, if we don't agree on some basics I suppose no further discussion would be fruitful. I just want to add one thing, however.

In a strict sense I don't think God sent us here to test us for His benefit...He is all-knowing and already knows the past present and future and so knows what we would do in any situation. I do believe that we are here as a test for our benefit, so we can develop and find out what kind of people we really are when faced with challenges, heartache, joy, and suffering. I often liken it to a blacksmith forging a sword...the metal starts are regular ore, but the blacksmith knows it can become a beautiful, useful sword. So he melts it, pours it into a mold that will produce the best sword for his purpose, heats it again, hammers it relentlessly into shape, and repeats until he presses it firmly against a grindstone to sharpen it. I have to admit, sometimes in life I feel like I'm being hammered, y'know? I think we all do. It's been said that God forges us on the anvil of obedience with the hammer of sacrifice. So maybe that will illustrate better what I believe about why we are here...I guess I wouldn't say it's about proving I suppose, it's about becoming. Becoming what we couldn't be if just left as a piece of "ore" as it were.

Now, I think I understand your question about why you don't understand why someone HAD to die for us, or why we needed a savior figure to do something we couldn't already do for ourselves. The best explanation I can offer is to expand on the comment by Jesus I referred to in my first post. He makes the comparison between us sinning and being kept from God's presence, to someone going in debt and being thrown in debtor's prison because they can't pay (something we really don't have in our day and age thanks to Chapter 11 IRS code, i.e. bankruptcy laws).

Jesus is saying that in that instance, if someone is thrown in debtor's prison because they have no money to pay their debt, they are FOREVER "stuck" there because they can't earn money while in debtor's prison, which means that they themselves can never pay their debt off. Someone "on the outside" with money is the only possible way for them to be released. While we might or might not agree on whether we, ourselves, can "pay" our debt of sin by ourselves, I think it's more important to focus on another aspect of it.

I do believe that for sin the punishment is suffering (whether the removal of God's Spirit, the loss of earthly comforts or inner peace, etc...). In the Doctrine and Covenants, in one of the most powerful sections, section 19 Jesus reveals the truth of the matter (and I apologize for not bringing this up sooner as I realize now that I think it's key). Verses 15-17

15) Therefore I command you to repent--repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16) For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent.

17) But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

So in a sense you're right Shan. If we don't accept Jesus and his sacrifice...or more to the point...if there never was a savior, all of us COULD "suffer" for our sins, i.e. suffer what Jesus suffered in our place so we don't have to if we'll repent. That's his promise in a way, "Live as I lived, or suffer as I suffered." I like option number one myself. :)

BUT...and I feel this is important Shan...paying our "spiritual debt" is not enough to bring us back to God. The scriptures teach us that no unclean thing can dwell with God...and referring to my "Parable of the Porsche," simply paying our debt makes us GUILTY BUT FORGIVEN. We have still lost our innocence or freedom from guilt. Even if I pay my traffic ticket and can drive without fear of losing my license, the fact that I got a traffic ticket is STILL ON MY RECORD (spiritually speaking). And God's presence, or heaven, is for perfect people...Jesus says as much when he commanded, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

And I think we all know that we can't "perfect ourselves." The ironic thing about grace is that the only people who really understand the value of grace are those who try to keep the commandments and fail.

Some people think the grace of Christ allows us to live as we please, but Christians understand that the grace of Christ allows us to live as HE pleases.

That, Shan, that is the reason we need a Savior, because his grace is the way we become perfect, the way we shed our cocoon of imperfection and blossom into the person God knows we can become. It's physically impossible for us to be driving the motor boat and skiing at the same time (forgive the basic analogy, it just came to mind :) ). We can't be in two places at once, or more to the point, we can't BE TWO PEOPLE at once. We can splash about in the lake all we want with the skis strapped to our feet, but until someone with a motor boat comes along and tows us with them, we will never get up on the water.

That is why I think we need a Savior. Not JUST to make it so we don't have to suffer for our own sins (though I'm grateful I won't have to if I repent!), but to make it possible for us to leave imperfection behind as Jesus leads us to higher and brighter realms than we ever dreamed existed. I hope that clears up my views a bit more for you Shan. I apologize if I've created more confusion, but I really feel this doctrine with my whole heart and it's important to me that I do my best to explain it.

Now Jason, as for your "tell an aztec why he shouldn't sacrifice a goat" question, I hardly need note that it's irrelevant, an inaccurate comparison to the issue at hand and third, I'd never have been a conquistador I never really cared much for those metal helmets they wore. :) The issue here Jason, was not for me to PROVE to everyone that the LDS concept of why there needed to be a Savior is THE ONLY RIGHT CONCEPT on the matter. I was trying to help my friend Shan understand better what I feel to be the LDS concept of why the atonement was necessary. So if you'd refrain from throwing your metaphorical gauntlet in my face while I discuss this with others, I know I'd appreciate it (that thing is heavy dontcha' know!).

[Ray]

ApostleKnight,

I now believe that Shanstress is smart enough to understand exactly what we have been saying, and she is simply refusing to believe what we have said. And unless that changes, there is absolutely no hope of her ever accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And btw, I now consider Jason to be in the same situation.

And lest you think I'm giving up too easily, I should let you know that I've been speaking with shanstress for over a year now, and with Jason even longer.

But in case it helps anyway, I appreciate what you said and I know you have told the truth. :)

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Sep 22 2005, 03:41 PM

Now Jason, as for your "tell an aztec why he shouldn't sacrifice a goat" question, I hardly need note that it's irrelevant, an inaccurate comparison to the issue at hand and third, I'd never have been a conquistador   I never really cared much for those metal helmets they wore. :)  The issue here Jason, was not for me to PROVE to everyone that the LDS concept of why there needed to be a Savior is THE ONLY RIGHT CONCEPT on the matter. I was trying to help my friend Shan understand better what I feel to be the LDS concept of why the atonement was necessary. So if you'd refrain from throwing your metaphorical gauntlet in my face while I discuss this with others, I know I'd appreciate it (that thing is heavy dontcha' know!).

First, I didn't say "goat" I said "human".

Second, there's no real difference in human sacrifice. You believe as the Aztec's believed that someone's gotta die to appease the wrath of your gods. Some sorry dude had to bleed for the Aztec's "salvation," and your Jesus had to die for your "salvation".

There is no distinction between the two, except the Aztecs sacrificed regularly, and the Christians only needed one sacrifice.

Dismissal is not what I expected from you.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 22 2005, 05:17 PM

First, I didn't say "goat" I said "human". 

Second, there's no real difference in human sacrifice.  You believe as the Aztec's believed that someone's gotta die to appease the wrath of your gods.  Some sorry dude had to bleed for the Aztec's "salvation," and your Jesus had to die for your "salvation". 

There is no distinction between the two, except the Aztecs sacrificed regularly, and the Christians only needed one sacrifice. 

Dismissal is not what I expected from you.

←

Well, class dismissed. And while you may not have been referring directly to my Savior when you said, "some sorry dude had to bleed" as per a salvatory role, that kind of disrespect deserves nothing but dismissal, and barely that.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 22 2005, 05:15 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 22 2005, 05:17 PM

First, I didn't say "goat" I said "human". 

Second, there's no real difference in human sacrifice.  You believe as the Aztec's believed that someone's gotta die to appease the wrath of your gods.  Some sorry dude had to bleed for the Aztec's "salvation," and your Jesus had to die for your "salvation". 

There is no distinction between the two, except the Aztecs sacrificed regularly, and the Christians only needed one sacrifice. 

Dismissal is not what I expected from you.

←

Well, class dismissed. And while you may not have been referring directly to my Savior when you said, "some sorry dude had to bleed" as per a salvatory role, that kind of disrespect deserves nothing but dismissal, and barely that.

←

You have been warned Jason about being disrespectful... maybe you should think about how it feels to be put on mod status....

[Jason]

Legrand,

Do you really think that was necessary?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 22 2005, 07:25 PM

Legrand,

Do you really think that was necessary?

←

I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't play word games (Scrabble excepted), so necessary is a very apt adjective. Glad we understand one another. :)

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 22 2005, 07:17 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 22 2005, 07:25 PM

Legrand,

Do you really think that was necessary?

←

I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't play word games (Scrabble excepted), so necessary is a very apt adjective. Glad we understand one another. :)

←

I was referring to the deleted post that this last one replaced.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 22 2005, 08:40 PM

I was referring to the deleted post that this last one replaced. 

←

I did not delete any of your posts Jason. You have me confused with somebody else. But I'm flattered you assumed it was me.

[shanstress70]

Thanks again Ray and AK, for sharing your beliefs with me. I truly do appreciate your time. This is something that I will continue to search for through reading and prayer, and not a MB. Some things are too deep for message boards.

From now on, I'm not going to discuss any scripture-based stuff on this board. I'd rather keep the conversation to more benign topics, like the General Discussion forum.

Take care!

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 22 2005, 07:30 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-shanstress70@Sep 22 2005, 05:51 AM

Ray sd: Why is it so hard to believe somebody gave His life while trying to save us? I know it's hard to comprehend, but why not believe it?

Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

AK sd: If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic).

AK, my question is, "Why does someone have to be saved by a savior?"

I don't think you guys understand what my issue is.  Forget all the little details.  I want to know why it was necessary for someone to die in order for us to be forgive for our sins.

Why would God create this circumstance in the beginning?  Why did he say, "I'm going to have to create them so they can either choose right or wrong.  They better choose not to eat the apple (even though I know they won't because the apple looks so tasty), or I'll have to find a savior to them.

←

He didn't creat this need in the begining. God didn't creat the eternal laws. He is subject to them as much as we are. He just does the promblem solving...within the bounds that are already there...eternally.

←

Who or what DID create the eternal laws? Eh?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by bizabra@Sep 23 2005, 10:14 AM

Who or what DID create the eternal laws?  Eh?

←

I'm looking forward to asking Heavenly Father that very question in the next life. If anyone knows, He does. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by bizabra+Sep 23 2005, 09:14 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 22 2005, 07:30 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-shanstress70@Sep 22 2005, 05:51 AM

Ray sd: Why is it so hard to believe somebody gave His life while trying to save us? I know it's hard to comprehend, but why not believe it?

Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

AK sd: If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic).

AK, my question is, "Why does someone have to be saved by a savior?"

I don't think you guys understand what my issue is.  Forget all the little details.  I want to know why it was necessary for someone to die in order for us to be forgive for our sins.

Why would God create this circumstance in the beginning?  Why did he say, "I'm going to have to create them so they can either choose right or wrong.  They better choose not to eat the apple (even though I know they won't because the apple looks so tasty), or I'll have to find a savior to them.

←

He didn't creat this need in the begining. God didn't creat the eternal laws. He is subject to them as much as we are. He just does the promblem solving...within the bounds that are already there...eternally.

←

Who or what DID create the eternal laws? Eh?

←

That is a question like... who is God's God.... you will have to die to find out...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 23 2005, 12:16 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-bizabra@Sep 23 2005, 10:14 AM

Who or what DID create the eternal laws?  Eh?

←

I'm looking forward to asking Heavenly Father that very question in the next life. If anyone knows, He does. :)

←

HA! I didn't know someone had answered this... and we still came up with the same answer..

BTW... Biz... would you consider giving a poor student in math... calculous?

[shanstress70]

I don't have any scripture to back this up, but my personal opinion is that God created everything, even the laws, and he is not subject to following any rules.

But I don't expect anyone to believe that, or to be offended by it.

[wolfjingles]

I think there are a lot of things that we are not meant to know cause we cant handle all the answers at this time . Like what was said we do not have all the records and we argue over the ones we do have so the lord is not going to give us any more at this point. Now in saying that my next thing is that you have to realize that the world is nothing like heaven. We were indeed sent to be tested cause the lord needs to know who really will follow him and who will not follow him. The day will come when every man will have to chose

but that is just my opinion on this