Why Jesus Had To Bleed And Die...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I recently read the thread where people were discussing "why Jesus had to die" and why blood was necessary. I must admit I found the explanations lacking and so I humbly offer my understanding of this crucial doctrine below. I'll try to break down my comments into easily digestible bits, but the explanation I offer is involved so this will take some time to work through. :) Plan on taking at least five minutes to read/ponder this if you desire. Okay, let's start!

(1) Heavenly Father has a perfected, exalted body of flesh and bone (in other words, He's immortal, cannot die, is perfectly good, just and loving). Because of His exalted state, God can experience a PERFECT fulness of joy. The teaching of the Doctrine and Covenants is that only a spirit joined to a physical body can experience a fulness of joy. In the beginning, we lived with God as His spirit children, without physical bodies, and hence we could not experience a FULNESS of joy. Being a loving Father, He naturally wants all of His children to experience the joy He has.

(2) There is an eternal standard of "right" and "wrong" in the universe. The LDS church does not teach how or when these eternal laws were set up because we honestly can't understand the concept of eternity without a beginning or end. We simply know that even God must "obey" these laws of right and wrong, or in other words, He cannot and would not do anything "wrong" because by His nature He is pure goodness. Just what is wrong may be argued by mortals, but in LDS belief there is an absolute good and evil and God is perfectly within the good.

(3) God does not have a magic wand that He waves at us and uses to force people to obey Him. He has power because people obey Him. Just like a general of an army cannot physically force all his troops at once to do his will, but if his troops respect him and know he loves them and wants them to succeed, they are willing to do what he asks without being forced to. This is the source of God's power...those who know Him, know of His goodness, love and mercy want to do what He asks, because THEY KNOW HE ONLY ASKS US TO DO WHAT WILL BRING US THE MOST JOY IN THE END. In other words, the whole gospel and His commandments/revelations to us are designed to bring us to the state He is in, a perfected exalted state where we too can experience a fulness of joy WHILE ETERALLY BEING SUBJECT TO HIM AND SERVING HIM AS OUR GOD.

(4) The concept of "justice" prevents...yes, prevents...God from simply granting everyone the status of perfection that He enjoys. Justice means you get what you deserve. You get paid if you work, you get strong if you exercise, you are forgiven if you forgive, and so on. So here's where I'm going with this. Before we were born we lived with God as His literal spirit children...we received our spirit bodies (which look like our physical bodies...eyes, ears, knees and toes) from God just as I received my physical body from my earthly parents. His goal from the beginning was to set up a plan that would allow us to become like Him...perfectly happy (that's a simplification of course). Now these eternal laws of right, wrong, and justice were known to all of us in our spirit state. And the principle we are taught in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants is that the majority of people will usually choose right over wrong. So imagine that were 300 spirit children for example (of course there were more). Heavenly Father takes one and says, "I love you so here, receive a perfect physical body like mine, enjoy the joy I have even if you don't want to do right and be good." The majority of the 300--namely, here we'll say 200--would recognize this as unjust (after all, we are taught in the scriptures that we are judged by our works). Just like a manager giving an employee a paycheck even if the employee never showed up for work, the majority of us would say, "Heavenly Father, how can you reward one who disobeys you and will not follow you? If a disobedient spirit can receive all you have to give, what reason is there for us to obey you?" So naturally, if God insisted on rewarding the rebellious spirit, the majority of spirits would lose confidence in Him, His perfect goodness, His rule by law and not whim, and hence would simply not obey Him. Now how can God accomplish anything if no one obeys Him? Like I said, God does not have a magic wand or a pocketwatch that he dangles in front of people to "hypnotize" them into doing His will. He is obeyed because He is good, and because we want to make Him happy and return to live with Him. So here's the problem: God wants us to become like Him, but to be fair or just, He can only give a perfect reward to those who obey Him perfectly. The problem there is that of course He knows we are imperfect and all of us will/do mess up and disobey Him here on earth. In other words, all of us would go against those eternal laws of right and wrong. So God literally cannot reward us with perfection if we live imperfectly. The majority of His children would simply not agree with Him doing that and would not obey or follow Him, removing His power in that sense. So the question is, how can God let us live here on earth, receive physical bodies, experience good and evil, make mistakes but still end up giving us His perfect reward even though we were imperfect? Enter the Savior.

(5) There is a law that states one person may pay the debt of another. It's called vicarious proxy...it's the same principle that allows lawyers to represent people in court, and that allows us to perform baptisms for those who died without the opportunity. One person may step in for another, in simple english. Now the problem as we saw above, is that all of us are imperfect. Since we need to be perfect to pay a debt perfectly, none of us imperfect mortals could take the place of any of the rest of us as far as paying our debts or making up for our sins. Paraphrasing what Jesus said when he visited the Nephites in the Americas after his resurrection from the dead (see 3 Ne. 12:26), if you are thrown into jail, how can you pay anyone if you cannot earn money, work or be free to act? So it was clear that none of us could pay each other's eternal debts of imperfect living. Consider:

Alma 34:11-12 "Now there is not any [imperfect] man that can sacrifice his own [imperfect] blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite [or perfect] atonement which will suffice for the sins of the [imperfect] world."

BUT...there was one being besides our Father in Heaven who was infinitely perfect. Jesus Christ was Heavenly Father's firstborn Son in the spirit. He was also perfect. Since the first, Jesus has always done what God asked him to do. Jesus has never done anything against the eternal standards of right. Jesus is the only child of God that was perfect in the spirit world (and right now for that matter). So naturally God calls us together and says, "I have a plan for your salvation. You will all go down to earth, receive physical bodies and be taught my commandments. If you obey perfectly, you will be rewarded with perfect joy in my presence. If you disobey, you cannot be rewarded with perfect joy in my presence. None of you are perfect, so I know that I can't reward any of you with the perfect joy I want you to have. But if there was a perfect person, who obeyed me perfectly, who was willing to pay your debt of imperfection, take your place of punishment and make a way for you to BE perfect like me...then I could forgive your imperfect obedience and exalt you to dwell with me. Now, whom shall I send as this savior for all of you?" Satan, a cunning, intelligent and proud spirit of authority in God's presence said, "I'll be Savior, but with one change...I'll MAKE everyone obey the law of good, and that way, everyone can be given a perfect reward. Oh, and one other detail, if I do this, you must give me your glory and all must worship me instead of you." Wow...pretty bold...and stupid. Then Jesus says, "I will live and die for all of my brothers and sisters Heavenly Father...I will atone for their mistakes and I will give the glory to you forever and ever." It wasn't a tough choice for God or us to make. We all had to choose who we wanted to follow. It wasn't a matter of different plans of salvation really...the principle in both cases was perfect joy would be given to perfect obedience. The choice was which savior would God ordain to fulfill that crucial task of atonement? The scriptures tell us that two-thirds of all God's spirit children chose to follow Jesus as God's ordained savior to the world. After all, if Satan forced all of us to be good, and if he was going to have to suffer for our mistakes as our savior, and if there were no mistakes to suffer for, then his job as savior wouldn't be hard or necessary at all! So his plan didn't make sense and two-thirds of us saw that and chose to support Jesus as our savior in God's plan. So Satan was cast out with the one-third of God's spirit children who rebelled and wanted to give Satan the glory instead of God who gave them life and existence. Then, God set in motion the plan of salvation. He created the sun, planets, moon and stars through Christ (see John chapter 1). Then he created Adam and Eve, the first of His spirit children to receive physical bodies, that necessary ingredient to having perfect joy.

(6) But there was another problem. For us to be able to experience a fulness of joy, we had to experience pain. You cannot know sugar is sweet if you never taste something bitter. The only way for us to experience these "bitter" things was for us to have imperfect bodies that would allow us to get sick, be hurt, be tempted to disobey God and suffer the withdrawal of His presence in our lives (which hurts the most) and finally die. BUT...God who is perfect cannot create anything imperfect. He cannot create anything that is bad, only perfectly good, whole things. While Satan was bad, when God gave him and us spiritual life we started out good, never having disobeyed God because we had never had the chance to at that point. Satan chose to become evil, God didn't creat him evil. Likewise, God could not create imperfect bodies for us that would allow us to be tempted and die, for that would be characteristic of imperfect bodies. So God created the "Eden Opportunity" as I'll call it. He gave Adam and Eve perfect immortal bodies (the only kind he as a perfect creator could make) and a perfect world free of death and suffering. He then gave them the choice to obey Him or disobey Him. If they disobeyed Him by eating the forbidden fruit (whether you want to think of it as literal fruit or metaphorical), they would receive justice by having their perfect bodies become mortal, subject to illness, temptation and ultimately, death. But God would not force Adam and Eve to disobey, even though they had to for us to be able to come into this imperfect existence and learn to be like God through Christ's role as savior and teacher. So the stage was set...Adam and Eve had perfect, immortal bodies...but they also had never experienced pain or suffering and hence, really did not realize how good they had it or did not realize the sugar they had was sweet, so to speak. Of course, Satan tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God and the result was that they were cast out of God's presence, received imperfect mortal bodies that would have desires against God's will that they would have to learn to resist being tempted by, etc... Ultimately, Christ's role as savior can be defined as REVERSING THE FALL OF ADAM. Through his death and resurrection, Christ gained the power over death to bring all of us back to life in our physical bodies after we had died, thus reversing Adam's loss of a perfect, immortal body. Through his suffering for our sins (which we'll discuss shortly), Christ removes the results of our disobedience and returns us to a state of innocence--but with knowledge of sweet and bitter gained from our experiences here on earth, and hence allows us to have perfect joy like God and him...IF WE ACCEPT HIS SACRIFICE AND DO WHAT'S REQUIRED TO RECEIVE THE CLEANSING POWER OF FORGIVENESS.

(7) Now the stage is really set...we are all coming to earth, receiving our mortal, imperfect bodies, being taught God's law or what things we need to do to become like Him...perfectly good and just and worthy of a perfect reward. BUT...we all make mistakes and sin or act contrary to the eternal standard of right and wrong. In living imperfectly, we cannot in fairness receive perfect joy. We don't deserve it, to put it simply. Consider Paul's explanation:

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

So Christ comes in now in his full splendor and glory. All the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were to point everyone's minds FORWARD to the day when Jesus would come to earth as the metaphorical "sacrificial lamb without spot," and have his blood spilled in our place, allowing the punishment for our sins to be removed. The sacrament of bread and water in our day is meant to point everyone's minds BACKWARDS to that ultimate sacrifice of love in Gethsemane and on the cross of Calvary where the blood of a God was spilt for you and me. Now here's where it gets interesting. The gospel is made of covenants...two-way promises. Contracts, in a way. We promise to do something (obey God, or the eternal unchanging laws of right and wrong) and Christ promises to do something (allow us to live with him and Heavenly Father in perfect joy). So baptism is like us signing the "paperwork" that opens our "bank account" full of infinite "money" or grace. Christ founded the "bank," pays our debts with his perfect record of obedience, and allows us to come out with "money" in our accounts...meaning a resurrected, immortal perfect body and us having changed into perfect beings like God and Christ in that we won't do anything wrong ever again and have become perfectly good like them BUT WILL FOREVER BE SUBJECT TO THEM AND WORSHIP GOD AS OUR LORD AND KING. We will never be "above" God or Christ, we will, like Christ, give the glory and praise to God forever and ever for making it possible for us to have the joy He does! What a merciful and loving God to make that possible, and what a kind and loving Savior to give his very life so we can receive all that God has in store for us! To God alone the glory, now and ever!!!

(8) Now we come to the sacrifice itself...the "blood" that has been discussed and disagreed about. In several places in the scriptures, we learn that "life" or our "mortality" is symbolized by our blood. We are taught that in Eden, before the Fall of Adam, Adam and Eve did not have mortal blood in their immortal bodies, they had pure spirit or pure matter in place of blood, but when they sinned and fell, as part of the process of becoming mortal, the pure matter in their bodies became impure blood, capable of carrying sickness and ultimately death to us. I don't want to get into "deep doctrine" with this, I simply point it out to show that it is our blood that is our mortal life. This is important when we get to the mathematics of Christ's suffering, where we learn that he had to give his life for our lives, and what his "life" was...his blood. Here are a few key scriptures on that topic. Pay attention to the fact that God is teaching us that mortal life is our blood (without blood to carry oxygen to our muscles and brain, we die...blood is literally our life) and that Christ had to give his life (or blood) for us to be saved. My clarifications appear in brackets [] below:

Genesis 9:4 "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."

Exodus 12:7,13 "And they shall take of the blood [of the passover lamb], and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And the blood [of the passover lamb] shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Matthew 20:28 "Even as [Jesus] came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life [or blood] a ransom for many."

Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by [Christ's] own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things [in] the law [of Moses were] purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Revelation 1:5-6 "Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth...him that washed us from our sins in his own blood...to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Helaman 5:9 "O remember, remember, my sons…that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come…"

Doctrine and Covenants 38:4 “…I am Christ, and in mine own name, by the virtue of the blood which I have spilt, have I pleaded before the Father for [you].”

Guide to the Scriptures "Blood" (http://scriptures.lds.org/gsb/blood): "The atoning power of a sacrifice was in the blood because the blood was regarded as essential to life. Jesus Christ's atoning blood cleanses the repentant from sin."

Bible Dictionary "Atonement" (http://scriptures.lds.org/bda/atnmnt): "Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind. By his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed, his divine Sonship, his sinless life, the shedding of his blood in the garden of Gethsemane, his death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, he made a perfect atonement for all mankind. The scriptures point out that no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would be satisfactory if it were not for the atonement [and blood] of Jesus Christ."

Bible Dictionary "Blood" (http://scriptures.lds.org/bdb/blood): "Regarded by the Israelites as the seat of the life or vital energy of all flesh. The atoning power of a sacrifice was in the blood because it was regarded as containing the life of the animal and because the sacrifice was a type of the great sacrifice who is Jesus Christ. Jesus worked out a perfect atonement by the shedding of his own blood."

I hope from these quotes that we can all see that blood, as THE symbol for a person's life, is central to the atonement because Jesus had to give his life for our sins...he had to give his blood, and he did just that, in Gethsemane when he sweat drops of blood so intense was his infinite suffering for infinite sins (see Luke 22:44), and on the cross of calvary, when the soldier pierced Christ's side with his spear and blood and water gushed out (see John 19:34). The blood represented mortal life, and the water represented the pure matter of an immortal life, as in the material in Adam and Eve's veins before they fell, as explained here:

Bible Dictionary "Fall of Adam" (http://scriptures.lds.org/bdf/fllfdm): "Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood. There was no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations. With the eating of the 'forbidden fruit,' Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life."

So this symbolic spilling of blood and water from Christ's side symbolized the fact that Jesus had a perfect being as his Father, and a mortal woman as his mother, so water for perfection or immortal matter and blood for imperfect mortal life. The only reason Jesus could stand in our place was because he was sinless, perfectly obedient, infinitely innocent.

(9) So now Christ has taken our place, suffered for our sins and also felt every pain or discomfort or emotion we would feel (see Hebrews 4:15, 2 Nephi 9:21). So does that mean that everyone is saved now? No, because as we noted at the beginning, the law of justice demands that one must obey a law before they can be rewarded for obedience. In this case, Jesus Christ created the conditions we needed to meet before we could access his saving grace, the grace created with the spilling of his blood. These conditions are the covenants of the gospel: baptism by immersion, receiving the gift of the holy ghost, partaking of the sacrament, (for men) receiving the priesthood, for men and women being endowed in the temple and being sealed in the temple...of course with repentance throughout our lives as we struggle to become more like Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. A beautiful (and sad) symbol of how we need Christ's sinless life and blood to cleanse us is in the Old Testament. It was common for the high priest (either Moses or later Aaron his brother) to sprinkle the blood of a sacrificial animal on the people as a symbol that they had entered into a covenant with God. It was the blood of the passover lamb that caused God to spare the firstborn male children of the Israelites in Egypt, so they were familiar with this imagery. Now we read:

Exodus 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words [of the law]."

This was later repeated in a far sadder setting when the jews told the Roman Procurator Pilate, "His blood be on us, and on our children," when asked if they really wanted Jesus to be crucified (see Matthew 27:25). They didn't understand the significance of that statement, but it was symbolic of Christ's atoning, saving blood being sprinkled on them and all of us to save us on conditions of repentance and allegiance to Christ and his gospel.

(10) Christ has used perfect, simple symbols to explain the rebirth all of us must undergo to be changed into the kind of being God is. When we are born into this world, our spirits have entered a mortal body with blood and as part of the birthing process water comes with us from the womb. Jesus explains that being baptized with water, receiving the gift of the holy ghost and being cleansed by his blood is the process for us to be born into God's kingdom, perfect and innocent as a child but able to feel a fulness of joy. Consider:

1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Moses 6:58-60 "Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying: That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;"

(11) The final thing to note is that he had to die, so that he could rise from the dead, and gain the power over death necessary to resurrect all of us. He was the firstborn spirit child of God before we came to earth, and he was the firstborn from the dead on this earth. Contrary to what others have said, JESUS DID GIVE UP HIS LIFE. No one took it from him...he did not die because others had power over him, he let himself be crucified, and then and only then, did he consciously cause his spirit to leave his physical body in death. Consider:

John 10:17-18 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

So Jesus didn't just let himself be taken to a place where he would be killed, but he actually decided when he would die, or let his spirit leave his physical body. No one took it from him, and since he had power to lay down his life, he had the power to take it again and this power is how he brings to pass the resurrection of all of us, even if we did not obey him. After all, we didn't make Adam eat the forbidden fruit and be cast out of Eden, causing mortality and death to enter the world. So why should we be punished for that and have to die never to live again? Note:

1 Corinthians 15:20 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

(12) Okay, let's wrap up everything we've learned concerning why Jesus "had to die" for us to be saved and return to God's presence to have a fulness of joy forever.

First, we couldn't have a fulness of joy as just spirits without a physical body.

Second, God created a physical earth and gave Adam/Eve immortal physical bodies.

Third, Adam's fall caused imperfect mortal bodies with imperfect desires to bring sin and death into the world.

Fourth, in the process of receiving our physical bodies, we sin in mortality.

Fifth, God couldn't in fairness (or justice) give us a perfect reward for imperfect obedience to Him.

Sixth, a sinless, perfect, infinite being could pay our debt of imperfection and make it "fair" for God to reward us as if we had lived sinless lives.

Seventh, Christ suffered, bled and died in our place, giving his flawless life for ours.

Eighth, Christ extends the gospel with its covenants to us so we can access his grace and be born anew into God's kingdom, changed into the kind of perfectly good being that he and Heavenly Father are.

Ninth, in such a state we could experience the perfect fulness of joy that God does, WHICH IS WHAT HE WANTED FOR US ALL ALONG!

I hope this has made some sense. This is the understanding that I have gained through much study and prayer. I am grateful that Christ loved me enough to give his life for me, so I can have the joy he and my Father in Heaven do. To God alone the glory, now and ever! Amen!!! I have added an analogy that helps me understand how all of this applies to us in another post titled "Parable of the Porsche." Take care all!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Thanks guy... BTW what made you choose this moniker?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 20 2005, 10:17 AM

Thanks guy... BTW what made you choose this moniker?

←

Growing up I loved the idea of castles, knights, jousts all that medieval stuff. Since in a basic sense an apostle means "one sent forth" to witness of Christ, I thought I'd tie the two ideas together. For the record, I in no way think I'm an apostle in the real sense of the word. :)

[Ray]

ApostleKnight,

Your summary of the gospel made pretty good sense and I believe your explanation is true if understood correctly, but to help avoid an imperfect understanding of what you meant, perhaps it would help if you clarified a few more points.

For instance, what did you mean by this:

Fourth, in the process of receiving our physical bodies, we sin in mortality.

If I understand you correctly, I think you mean that in the process of receiving our “resurrected” physical bodies, we sin in mortality. Am I right? You’re not inferring that it is a sin to conceive children, or that children are conceived in sin, are you?

And this:

Fifth, God couldn't in fairness (or justice) give us a perfect reward for imperfect obedience to Him.

To my understanding, none of us are perfectly obedient to God, with the exception of Jesus Christ, so it might help if you explained and clarified the principle of Repentance in more detail.

And this:

Sixth, a sinless, perfect, infinite being could pay our debt of imperfection and make it "fair" for God to reward us as if we had lived sinless lives.

Considering my response to item 5, how does the atonement make it “fair” for God to reward us as if we had lived sinless lives. Again, I think a better understanding of Repentance would help to clarify this issue.

And this:

Seventh, Christ suffered, bled and died in our place, giving his flawless life for ours.

…seems to be a repeat of the principles which you were discussing above, which failed to fully explain how Repentance is a necessary element of the gospel.

And this:

Eighth, Christ extends the gospel with its covenants to us so we can access his grace and be born anew into God's kingdom, changed into the kind of perfectly good being that he and Heavenly Father are.

… is all true, but lacking a lot of detail to help explain how it all works.

And this:

Ninth, in such a state we could experience the perfect fulness of joy that God does, WHICH IS WHAT HE WANTED FOR US ALL ALONG!

…is all true, but who will experience “that” and who won’t?

And to offer something more than what I hope will be perceived to be constructive “criticism”, I will say that the whole duty of Man can be summed up with the two greatest commandments, and only those who truly love God will receive all that He has to offer.

And btw, I'm asking you to clarify these points to help other people whose understanding of the gospel does not include a good understanding of the need for Repentance.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 20 2005, 02:57 PM

ApostleKnight,

Your summary of the gospel made pretty good sense and I believe your explanation is true if understood correctly, but to help avoid an imperfect understanding of what you meant, perhaps it would help if you clarified a few more points.

For instance, what did you mean by this:

Fourth, in the process of receiving our physical bodies, we sin in mortality.

If I understand you correctly, I think you mean that in the process of receiving our “resurrected” physical bodies, we sin in mortality. Am I right? You’re not inferring that it is a sin to conceive children, or that children are conceived in sin, are you?

And this:

Fifth, God couldn't in fairness (or justice) give us a perfect reward for imperfect obedience to Him.

To my understanding, none of us are perfectly obedient to God, with the exception of Jesus Christ, so it might help if you explained and clarified the principle of Repentance in more detail.

And this:

Sixth, a sinless, perfect, infinite being could pay our debt of imperfection and make it "fair" for God to reward us as if we had lived sinless lives.

Considering my response to item 5, how does the atonement make it “fair” for God to reward us as if we had lived sinless lives. Again, I think a better understanding of Repentance would help to clarify this issue.

And this:

Seventh, Christ suffered, bled and died in our place, giving his flawless life for ours.

…seems to be a repeat of the principles which you were discussing above, which failed to fully explain how Repentance is a necessary element of the gospel.

And this:

Eighth, Christ extends the gospel with its covenants to us so we can access his grace and be born anew into God's kingdom, changed into the kind of perfectly good being that he and Heavenly Father are.

… is all true, but lacking a lot of detail to help explain how it all works.

And this:

Ninth, in such a state we could experience the perfect fulness of joy that God does, WHICH IS WHAT HE WANTED FOR US ALL ALONG!

…is all true, but who will experience “that” and who won’t?

And to offer something more than what I hope will be perceived to be constructive “criticism”, I will say that the whole duty of Man can be summed up with the two greatest commandments, and only those who truly love God will receive all that He has to offer.

And btw, I'm asking you to clarify these points to help other people whose understanding of the gospel does not include a good understanding of the need for Repentance.

←

Ray, thanks for your questions and the chance to clarify. First let me say that my purpose in posting all that was to offer my understanding of why Christ's death and blood were necessary for our salvation, not necessarily as an explanation of all gospel doctrines (like repentance). Nevertheless, I will explain what you have asked me to for the benefit of others I may have confused.

First, when I said we sin in receiving our physical bodies, I meant that to receive physical bodies we had to be born into this imperfect world where we would make mistakes, sin. I of course do not believe child bearing is sinful or believe in original sin or anything like that.

Second, alot of your questions revolved around the role of repentance. I think I was pretty clear about that, but here goes in case I mispoke. We are not perfect. We cannot be given a perfect reward. Only someone who obeys perfectly can be given a perfect reward. Jesus is the only child of God who is perfectly obedient. Repentance is the way in which our sins become his to "pay for," and his perfect innocence becomes ours to share.

Repentance, a full discussion of it, is not something I'm going to get into right now. Suffice it to say that for the reason I wrote the post, we simply need to know that repentance...all of the gospel ordinances really...are what we have to do to have our innocence renewed and become worthy of perfect joy. If Christ cleans our spiritual record through his grace, then it becomes "perfect" again and so it is then "fair" for God to give us the perfect reward.

Again, I don't want to get into all of the gospel principles here, my purpose was to help clarify what I thought was a lack of understanding about specifically why Christ had to die and bleed for us. If someone has specific questions about repentance, I'd love to be involved in a discussion on them. Otherwise, I think this will do. Thanks for reading and replying everyone.

As for your comment that only those who truly love God will enjoy what he has to offer, I of course agree. That is the MOTIVATION to partake of the COVENANTS in the gospel. There can't be one without the other. It would do someone no good to love God if there was no constructive way to show that love or act on it (obedience and service) and the gospel would have no effect if nobody loved God which is the only really acceptable motivation to God for us to obey Him (though we have to start somewhere).

[Ray]

See how nicely we covered that topic without being contentious?

I think we did rather well, and I thank you for your thoughts. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 20 2005, 03:37 PM

See how nicely we covered that topic without being contentious?

I think we did rather well, and I thank you for your thoughts.  :)

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Thanks Ray. If I ever get contentious, let me know...hehe :)

[Traveler]

I am sorry but I sometimes choose to scan post because of my limited time dedicated to the internet. There are a few points that I think ought to be developed more. They may have already been address in detail but I may have missed some important points.

1. The concept of perfect. Anciently the concept that is translated into perfect (Matt 5:48) did not necessarily mean without flaw – it meant complete. Although completeness and without flaw are related they carry a slightly different connotation.

2. The doctrine and concept of covenant. The relationship of the Father to “universal law” is based on covenant (this relationship seems to have been missed). All things done by the Father and the Son are according to covenant. It is by covenant that power is obtained and exercised on an eternal scale. Covenant is according to plan and is liberating. Without covenant one becomes bound or limited (damned) by “universal laws” not set free or liberated.

3. The concept of agency: This concept is not entirely interchangeable with choice. It implies power to act in behalf of someone or something else. According to scripture, agency is associated with covenant and the author of that covenant. It appears to me the two authors of covenant for which we may act as agents are the Messiah Jesus the Christ or the other anointed one (meaning messiah) Lucifer or Satan.

If I had time I would offer more in order to participate in this discussion to the fine level it has begun.

The Traveler

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 20 2005, 01:15 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 20 2005, 10:17 AM

Thanks guy... BTW what made you choose this moniker?

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Growing up I loved the idea of castles, knights, jousts all that medieval stuff. Since in a basic sense an apostle means "one sent forth" to witness of Christ, I thought I'd tie the two ideas together. For the record, I in no way think I'm an apostle in the real sense of the word. :)

←

Cool. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

First I have to say I appreciate having an intelligent discussion where we are not battling the old stuff from the non-members all the time... but actually moving forward with some stimulating and edifying issues..

Now.. Traveler said:

1. The concept of perfect. Anciently the concept that is translated into perfect (Matt 5:48) did not necessarily mean without flaw – it meant complete. Although completeness and without flaw are related they carry a slightly different connotation.

I would like to add that in order to become perfect... we must receive Charity the pure love of Christ.

It is described through out scripture as the condition of men when they are converted... truly converted... They no more desired to do evil, but to do good continually. They gave and lived in complete harmony sharing all things among each other equally. They served one another without looking for credit or selfishness..

Also... becoming like little children... submissive... charity seeketh not its own...

In Moroni 10:32-33 we are given to understand that perfection is given through Christ... not without him...

So knowing that charity is HIS pure love and we must pray for our hearts to be filled with this love... (Moroni 7:47-48) we understand why the beatitudes are nothing more than the path to becoming a peacemaker gaining power through this love of Christ to endure all things and become as little children... going the extra mile... giving the cloak and coat.... etc... enduring persecution and more..

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 20 2005, 07:46 PM

First I have to say I appreciate having an intelligent discussion where we are not battling the old stuff from the non-members all the time... but actually moving forward with some stimulating and edifying issues..

Now.. Traveler said:

1. The concept of perfect. Anciently the concept that is translated into perfect (Matt 5:48) did not necessarily mean without flaw – it meant complete. Although completeness and without flaw are related they carry a slightly different connotation.

I would like to add that in order to become perfect... we must receive Charity the pure love of Christ.

It is described through out scripture as the condition of men when they are converted... truly converted... They no more desired to do evil, but to do good continually. They gave and lived in complete harmony sharing all things among each other equally. They served one another without looking for credit or selfishness..

Also... becoming like little children... submissive... charity seeketh not its own...

In Moroni 10:32-33 we are given to understand that perfection is given through Christ... not without him...

So knowing that charity is HIS pure love and we must pray for our hearts to be filled with this love... (Moroni 7:47-48) we understand why the beatitudes are nothing more than the path to becoming a peacemaker gaining power through this love of Christ to endure all things and become as little children... going the extra mile... giving the cloak and coat.... etc... enduring persecution and more..

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Well said Please! Amen! I'm glad you pointed that out because I really also believe charity is the key to perfection. Thanks for reminding me. :)

[shanstress70]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply with such a well thought out response. It was very interesting to read what you wrote. However, you lost me when you started talking about this law of vicarious proxy. Who thought of that? WHY does one life have to be paid for with another? I understand that this is the foundation that Christianity is based on, but it is that one fundamental point that I can't understand.

This is God we are talking about. He can do anything. Why does he require this?

Plus, God MADE us to be imperfect creatures. Why did he create us as people who would be tempted if he could create us in any way he wants? I think you will reply about it being Adam and Eve's choice to partake of the apple, so they chose to be imperfect, BUT, I believe that God knew they would do that. He is supposedly all-knowing, right?

If you step back and look at the big picture, it just doesn't make sense.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Sep 21 2005, 08:14 AM

I appreciate you taking the time to reply with such a well thought out response.  It was very interesting to read what you wrote.  However, you lost me when you started talking about this law of vicarious proxy.  Who thought of that?  WHY does one life have to be paid for with another?  I understand that this is the foundation that Christianity is based on, but it is that one fundamental point that I can't understand. 

This is God we are talking about.  He can do anything.  Why does he require this?

Plus, God MADE us to be imperfect creatures.  Why did he create us as people who would be tempted if he could create us in any way he wants?  I think you will reply about it being Adam and Eve's choice to partake of the apple, so they chose to be imperfect, BUT, I believe that God knew they would do that.  He is supposedly all-knowing, right?

If you step back and look at the big picture, it just doesn't make sense.

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Sometimes I think that the way things are stated creates vague misunderstanding. For example the statement “G-d can do anything he wants”. This statement is very misleading. It implies that G-d does what ever he feels like with any wind of whim. I am sorry but I just do not believe it. Rather I believe G-d is a master planner and architect with an eternal perspective. He accomplishes his desires through planning and covenants (commitment) not by mere desire and whim.

The other concept that appears to create misunderstanding is that G-d created man as a flawed creature. The logic behind this is that since man exhibits flawed characteristics and G-d created the man the flawed characteristics must be G-d’s fault. There are two problems with this thinking. First man was created in innocents. It is through the fall that man becomes flawed. The second is the notion that because man is in a fallen “no win” situation that the only possible outcome will be to the detriment of man. Thus the divine flaw concept of the creation of man.

I believe that the essence of mortality is to grant experience (gain knowledge) of good and evil to the full extent without eternally destroying individuals. There are already some excellent post portraying the roll of Christ in man’s experience and knowledge of good and evil. What I think is missing in some small part is the understanding of good and evil and why it is important.

Let me use the example of wealth. Every one thinks they want more money and wealth – am I right? Anybody here recently turn down a million dollars? I do not think so. This is because we lack a plan with an eternal perspective. We think because earning a living is such a burden that we could become free of the burden if we just had a big chunk of change. What many do not realize is that by giving into personal desires so easily we become servants or in bondage to the desire, in this example it is the desire of wealth. We no longer own things but become owned by them. Day by day we become so addicted to our things that they come to control our lives – the more we have the more we are enslaved by them. We become angry if they are scratched or tarnished to the point we will assault other people (even small children – and even our own children and grandchildren) to protect our things. Yet none of these things accompany us when we die. Therefore death is the great end of the cycle were we reap the sweet or bitter end of our planning and commitments. The plan of G-d is that once we have experienced the cycle we will be much better for it.

The Traveler

[Ray]

WHY does one life have to be paid for with another?

He didn't! Nobody had to die to save us. Period. Everyone who was going to die could have just gone ahead and died. And that would be that.

The beauty of the gospel is that God sent His son to save us, when He didn’t have to.

Or in other words, the gospel is a rescue mission. Nothing more, and nothing less.

I understand that this is the foundation that Christianity is based on, but it is that one fundamental point that I can't understand.

Why is it so hard to believe somebody gave His life while trying to save us? I know it's hard to comprehend, but why not believe it? And btw, I said “trying” because the sacrifice of Jesus Christ only saves those who will accept the sacrifice He offered. Everyone else will just go ahead and die as they would have died without Him.

This is God we are talking about. He can do anything. Why does he require this?

I’m curious. Are you implying that God should forgive people when they do something He told them not to do, because God is good and that is what good people do? If that’s what you’re thinking, I think you’re missing the idea that God cannot be a just God unless He satisfies the demands of justice, and justice prevents Him from outright forgiving us when He told us there was a penalty affixed to going against His will.

And while I know there are some parents who don't mean what they say, or who will forgive their children even when they will not "repent", our Father in heaven is not like that, and thank goodness because we already have enough problem children (including grown up children) in this world.

And btw, I also think God required His son to give His life in service to Him as an example of what He expects from us. Or in other words, our Father in heaven expects us to do what He says even if people want to kill us for it, and He also seems to think it’s pretty important to tell us that we will be eternally rewarded for doing that.

[Jason]

I believe that Shan is saying: Man is not imperfect.

That further implies that Man does not sin.

Sin is a man-made theory, created to demoralize and subject people to others.

Those who lives their lives according to natural-law, have no need of bizarre rituals and blood sacrifices. Relics of a barbaric age.

Thank you for reading.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 21 2005, 06:18 PM

I believe that Shan is saying: Man is not imperfect. 

That further implies that Man does not sin. 

Sin is a man-made theory, created to demoralize and subject people to others. 

Those who lives their lives according to natural-law, have no need of bizarre rituals and blood sacrifices.  Relics of a barbaric age. 

Thank you for reading.

←

In response to a few posts in addition to this one. Someone HAD to die if all of us were going to be able to repent, be forgiven and return to live with God. If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic). So yes, the eternal law of justice demanded a payment, but not WHO had to make that payment. Hence Jesus is our proxy in that way. I think Ray is trying to say that no one forced Jesus to die, so in that sense he didn't "have to." But as far as salvation and the mathematics of debt and sin, someone perfect HAD to die if we would have any hope of returning to live with God.

As for who thought of the concept of proxy...God did, before this world was even made. It is His plan and Jesus is our Savior.

Now you're right, I do think that God made Adam and Even perfect and they chose to disobey (a step down but a step forward too). Just because Heavenly Father knows what we're going to do, and lets us, doesn't mean He MADE us choose to do what we did. That's the concept of free agency.

Some people think like this: "If God knows a man is going to murder someone, and God doesn't stop him, then it's just the same as if God killed that someone because he could've stopped it." This is flawed thinking. If my parents know I spend money frivolously (I don't, but hey, it's an example), are they responsible to pay my huge debts because they didn't cut up my credit cards? No. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean they cause that something.

Imagine if instead of coming to earth, God simply lined us all up and said, "Mary, I know you would've obeyed me if I sent you to earth, so here, be exalted. But LeGrand, well...I know you would've disobeyed me and been a waste of time so you might as well head for Hell right now." Even if I believe God knows everything, I'm pretty sure I would've said, "But I don't know that, and I have to find out for myself, have the chance to prove it, because I think I can do it!"

As one man said, God didn't ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to find out how much faith Abraham had...God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac so Abraham could find out how much faith Abraham had. It is simply unjust to punish before an act has been committed. Think about it...if we reason that God should punish a murderer before he murders because God knew he would, then the fact is the murderer is prevented from murdering, which means he shouldn't have been punished at all because he didn't perform the act. So any way we look at it, we have to face the fact that God lets us act for good or ill, and this is how we reach our potential (or choose to fall short of it).

God will not force us to obey Him. God will not force us to love Him. And God cannot save us against our will (I'm talking outright habitual disobedience with no attempts at repentance or change or godly sorrow).

Foreknowledge DOES NOT EQUAL fault.

Now Jason, you have to know that I'm going to bring some Book of Mormon logic to bear on your "sin is a man-made theory" comment. :) If there is no sin, that means there is no right or wrong to sin against...and if there is no right and wrong, there can be no reward or punishment, no happiness or misery...in the absence of these things, you lead us into a lukewarm, nerveless existence void of emotion, good or bad.

If you think that there are no laws of God, just "natural laws" a la evolution or plain physics, then who made the laws? Who set them up? Who decided that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Or more to the point, who decided what the gravitational pull of our specific planet would be? Then there's good 'ole thermodynamics and the fact that someone, something is fighting entropy.

Fact is God exists, universal laws of right and wrong exist, sin is the act of breaking these laws (or breaking ourselves on them), and God does not force anyone to break any of His laws (nor should He keep us boxed up because "He knows" we're going to make mistakes).

[shanstress70]

Ray sd: Why is it so hard to believe somebody gave His life while trying to save us? I know it's hard to comprehend, but why not believe it?

Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

AK sd: If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic).

AK, my question is, "Why does someone have to be saved by a savior?"

I don't think you guys understand what my issue is. Forget all the little details. I want to know why it was necessary for someone to die in order for us to be forgive for our sins.

Why would God create this circumstance in the beginning? Why did he say, "I'm going to have to create them so they can either choose right or wrong. They better choose not to eat the apple (even though I know they won't because the apple looks so tasty), or I'll have to find a savior to them.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Sep 22 2005, 05:51 AM

Ray sd: Why is it so hard to believe somebody gave His life while trying to save us? I know it's hard to comprehend, but why not believe it?

Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

AK sd: If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic).

AK, my question is, "Why does someone have to be saved by a savior?"

I don't think you guys understand what my issue is.  Forget all the little details.  I want to know why it was necessary for someone to die in order for us to be forgive for our sins.

Why would God create this circumstance in the beginning?  Why did he say, "I'm going to have to create them so they can either choose right or wrong.  They better choose not to eat the apple (even though I know they won't because the apple looks so tasty), or I'll have to find a savior to them.

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He didn't creat this need in the begining. God didn't creat the eternal laws. He is subject to them as much as we are. He just does the promblem solving...within the bounds that are already there...eternally.

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 21 2005, 06:37 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 21 2005, 06:18 PM

I believe that Shan is saying: Man is not imperfect. 

That further implies that Man does not sin. 

Sin is a man-made theory, created to demoralize and subject people to others. 

Those who lives their lives according to natural-law, have no need of bizarre rituals and blood sacrifices.  Relics of a barbaric age. 

Thank you for reading.

←

In response to a few posts in addition to this one. Someone HAD to die if all of us were going to be able to repent, be forgiven and return to live with God. If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic).

That's the most absurd reasoning I've ever seen.

Legrand, let me ask you a question. Let's suppose that you were a Conquistador back when the Spanish invaded the land of the Aztecs. Now let's suppose that you're there talking to one of the high priests of the Aztecs. You're trying to talk him out of killing another human being on his bloody altar. The priest is telling you that they must sacrifice this person for the good of all people. You're there telling him that it isn't necessary, that the sun will still shine, the crops still grow, and everything will continue just as it always has. The priest is insistant. He knows that without this sacrifice, all the earth will crumble and end.

How do you reason with the high priest?

When you figure out how to convince a pagan priest that he doesn't have to kill anybody for the corn to grow, you'll understand why we're telling you that you don't need a Savior figure to be with God when you die.

Now Jason, you have to know that I'm going to bring some Book of Mormon logic to bear on your "sin is a man-made theory" comment. :)  If there is no sin, that means there is no right or wrong to sin against...and if there is no right and wrong, there can be no reward or punishment, no happiness or misery...in the absence of these things, you lead us into a lukewarm, nerveless existence void of emotion, good or bad.

There is happiness and misery. But they are not dependent on the theory of right and wrong. There is no absolutely "right" thing or "wrong" thing. We bring the happiness and misery upon ourselves when we violate something that is right or wrong for "us" personally. What's right for you isn't right for me. What's wrong for you isn't wrong for me. We are only happy when we follow our own unique paths.

That's the Tao of the matter.

If you think that there are no laws of God, just "natural laws" a la evolution or plain physics, then who made the laws? Who set them up? Who decided that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Or more to the point, who decided what the gravitational pull of our specific planet would be? Then there's good 'ole thermodynamics and the fact that someone, something is fighting entropy.

Legrand, Im a Deist. I believe that god created the universe. However, I don't believe that god created bibles, qurans, avedas, book of mormons, etc. Those are men who pretended (ie lied) that god revealed those things to them. The Divine Creator established a universe for us that was perfect in every way. There was no garden of eden. No adam and eve. Those are myths handed down over the last 3000 years or so. Ancient myths to be sure, but myths all the same. Since there was no 'transgression' of adam, there is no need for a savior figure to "pay the debt".

We have no debt due our Creator. We have inherited no "sin" or "transgression" from our first parents. That these myths prevail in our advanced society is truly the eighth wonder of the world. Ultimately, the myths of christians (& mormons) will die out, and some future generation will look on us as a generally superstitious and ignorant lot. They'll have bumber stickers and t-shirts that mock our age, or they'll call the igorant of their day "christian!" much like we call the ignorant of our day "barbarian!".

Such is the inevitable conclusion of religious myth. One day, the world will be divided between Atheists, Agnostics, and Deists. Hopefully it will be a happy co-existence. Nobody will force anyone else to accept either the existence or non-existence of God.

A Utopia if ever the could be one.

[Ray]

Ray: Why is it so hard to believe somebody gave His life while trying to save us? I know it's hard to comprehend, but why not believe it?

shanstress: Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

Ray: As I keep trying to tell you, He didn’t HAVE to do it!

Or in other words, nobody HAD to come here and save us, and nobody MADE anybody do it!

Or in other words, nobody had to do anything to help us do what we could not do for ourselves!

Or in other words, none of us should feel ENTITLED to the help we receive from others, including the help we received from Jesus Christ, because we do NOT deserve it!

Or in other words, Jesus Christ tried to save me and all the rest of us even though He didn’t HAVE to. And because He did, I will worship Him forever.

ApostleKnight: If Jesus didn't die, if there was no savior, no one could be saved (pretty simple logic).

shanstress: AK, my question is, "Why does someone have to be saved by a savior?"

I don't think you guys understand what my issue is. Forget all the little details. I want to know why it was necessary for someone to die in order for us to be forgiven for our sins.

Why would God create this circumstance in the beginning? Why did he say, "I'm going to have to create them so they can either choose right or wrong. They better choose not to eat the apple (even though I know they won't because the apple looks so tasty), or I'll have to find a savior to them.

Ray: I think ApostleKnight offered a wonderful response to your question, but since it sometimes helps to rephrase things, I will try to restate what he said and what other prophets of God have said as succinctly as I know how.

Why would God create this circumstance in the beginning?

Because it was the most perfect plan for bringing about the purpose of God.

Why did he say, "I'm going to have to create them so they can either choose right or wrong. They better choose not to eat the apple (even though I know they won't because the apple looks so tasty), or I'll have to find a savior to them.

Because if He didn’t create [us] so that [we] could either choose right or wrong, [we] would essentially be robots who could only do what [He] “programmed” [us] do, with no freedom or “agency” of [our] own. And I don’t know about [you], but would never want to be like a robot, with no agency or freedom of [my] own. Would you?

And btw, although you suggested that we “forget all the little details”, I think a better understanding of the “gospel of Jesus Christ” might help you to see the beauty in what a lot of people call the “plan of salvation”, continuing to do this as succinctly as I know how… in the interest of clarity.

God created the Earth and sent us here to “prove” or “test” if we would do whatever God commanded us to do.

See Abraham 3:24-25 and some other scriptures with the key word “prove” at this LINK.

The essential elements of this “proof” or “test” are as follows:

Free agency: otherwise the “proof” or “test” would prove nothing about us.

Accountabity: otherwise the results of the “proof” or “test” would serve no purpose.

Faith: otherwise we would not receive truth and “light” to guide us.

Btw, Faith in this context refers to assurances we receive from God.

Temptation: otherwise we would not receive uncertainty and “darkness” to cloud our minds.

Btw, temptation in this context refers to assurances we receive from Satan.

Mercy: otherwise we would only receive the “justice” we would each deserve for our own works.

Btw, mercy in this context refers to the gospel of Jesus Christ, who alone can atone for our lack of getting a perfect “grade” on our “test”.

Simple enough?

And btw, I don’t EXPECT you or anyone else to believe what I am saying, but even if this "gospel" idea is just an idea that a bunch of guys thought up, it’s a pretty wonderful idea, don’t you think?!?

[shanstress70]

shanstress: Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

Ray: As I keep trying to tell you, He didn’t HAVE to do it!

UGH... I give up. According to you guys, in order for us to go to heaven and all that, he HAD to do it.

THAT is what I don't get.

Don't worry about it, Ray. I appreciate your time, but I don't think there is an answer to my question. I keep hearing what I've heard forever, but it's not the answer to my question. I don't think anyone knows it, but just puts it in the back of their minds in order to not have to deal with it. Maybe I'm just not putting it in understandable terms, so you don't really get what I'm asking.

[Jason]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Sep 22 2005, 12:30 PM

shanstress: Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

Ray: As I keep trying to tell you, He didn’t HAVE to do it!

UGH... I give up.  According to you guys, in order for us to go to heaven and all that, he HAD to do it.

THAT is what I don't get.

Don't worry about it, Ray.  I appreciate your time, but I don't think there is an answer to my question.  I keep hearing what I've heard forever, but it's not the answer to my question.  I don't think anyone knows it, but just puts it in the back of their minds in order to not have to deal with it.  Maybe I'm just not putting it in understandable terms, so you don't really get what I'm asking.

←

Stop thinking outside of the box, shan. You're scaring everyone! B)

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Sep 22 2005, 11:30 AM

shanstress: Ray, it's not hard to believe that someone WOULD do it, but why did He HAVE to do it?

Ray: As I keep trying to tell you, He didn’t HAVE to do it!

UGH... I give up.  According to you guys, in order for us to go to heaven and all that, he HAD to do it.

THAT is what I don't get.

Don't worry about it, Ray.  I appreciate your time, but I don't think there is an answer to my question.  I keep hearing what I've heard forever, but it's not the answer to my question.  I don't think anyone knows it, but just puts it in the back of their minds in order to not have to deal with it.  Maybe I'm just not putting it in understandable terms, so you don't really get what I'm asking.

←

Shanstress,

I would appreciate some more comments on my post where I outlined the

"plan of salvation", specifically stating which part or parts you don't understand. I'm sure you had some thoughts about what I wrote as you read what I wrote, and I refuse to believe that you simply can't understand the meaning of those words.

But then again, sometimes I am kinda stubborn, so maybe you really don't understand those words, even though they were written in English. But please tell me, one way or the other, whether or not you understand the words that I wrote.

[shanstress70]

Ray sd: God created the Earth and sent us here to “prove” or “test” if we would do whatever God commanded us to do.

Yes Ray, it is 'simple'. The issue is not whether it is 'simple' enough for me, although thanks for 'trying' to make me feel less intelligent... BTW, it didn't work.

Probably the biggest issue is that I don't believe this first statement, that God created all this just to 'test' us. I guess in order for us to agree on the topic of this post, we would have to agree on this basic assumption.

Thanks to all of you who tried to help me understand.

[Ray]

Well, while I was hoping that you might believe, I was focusing mainly on trying to help you understand the gospel as I and other LDS accept it, because I thought you would accept it once you properly understood it.

And now that I know it isn’t because you don't understand it, but because you have chosen to not believe, while fully understanding it, honestly, I don't know what to think. It's kinda sad, but then again, it's your choice to believe whatever you want to believe, so why should I feel bad that you don't appreciate what I think is the most wonderful gift that has ever been given?

Heh, oh well! :)