Book Of Abraham Facsimile No 1

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Sep 20 2005, 07:13 PM

Please,

It doesn’t look like there will be any breakthroughs tonight. It doesn’t bother me that Joseph thought the mummy was a king, or a women a man, or a god a slave –but I would like to know more about HOW he translated. No one has been able to provide much information on this. I’m unsatisfied with the knowledge we have.

But that won’t keep me from searching, pondering, and asking. Jesus told us to ask, seek, and knock. I've been doing that for years and will continue to do so.

Paul O

←

Seriously... I think you have missed it ... looking too hard... for something you want to see... and not seeing what the Lord is trying to show you.

[Paul Osborne]

Please,

Since you seem to have it figured out it might be well if you told me HOW the prophet took that roll and converted it into the BofA. Pehaps this will give me greater insight into understanding the Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar preserved by Brigham Young. Those documents are just as interesting as anything I have ever studied.

Would you care to discuss those pages?

Paul O

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Sep 20 2005, 07:18 PM

Please,

Since you seem to have it figured out it might be well if you told me HOW the prophet took that roll and converted it into the BofA. Pehaps this will give me greater insight into understanding the Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar preserved by Brigham Young. Those documents are just as interesting as anything I have ever studied.

Would you care to discuss those pages?

Paul O

←

Sure..

[Paul Osborne]

Please,

I guess a good place to start is HERE:

I'd like to know how the prophet translated. Instructions are given but I don't really understand them.

Paul O

[pushka]

Paul...I'm just wondering/curious to know if you believe in the BofA? do you believe in what it contains as being an inspired work, given to JS from God, even tho you do not believe that he correctly translated it from the papyri that is now available to scrutiny?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Sep 20 2005, 07:29 PM

Please,

I guess a good place to start is HERE:

I'd like to know how the prophet translated. Instructions are given but I don't really understand them.

Paul O

←

I have been going over these.. but I don't find the information particularly informative. Maybe it is because that road to the end isn't the one I have chosen to take.

Revelation is the only way to understand revelation.

[Paul Osborne]

Please,

You are more then welcome to get a revelation and share your findings. Whatever road you have chosen to take will lead to where you are going, but will that give you a true knowledge of my questions in this life?

I realize that death is the only road to answer many questions – but if I can cheat death it would suit me well.

It doesn’t hurt my testimony that a prophet can get scripture out of looking at funerary papyrus, but I want to know more about this process. It appears YOU can't get past the part that Joseph received a revelation. That says nothing of the process. I want more.

Paul O

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Sep 21 2005, 07:46 AM

Please,

You are more then welcome to get a revelation and share your findings. Whatever road you have chosen to take will lead to where you are going, but will that give you a true knowledge of my questions in this life?

I realize that death is the only road to answer many questions – but if I can cheat death it would suit me well.

It doesn’t hurt my testimony that a prophet can get scripture out of looking at funerary papyrus, but I want to know more about this process. It appears YOU can't get past the part that Joseph received a revelation. That says nothing of the process. I want more.

Paul O

←

I can get past it... you are the one struggling with the process. Now.. as far as revelation as to the way Joseph received this revelation... isn't it obvious?

You have step by stepped it out on the physical plane looking for clues as to what happened between Joseph, his two scribes and the Lord beyond the physical actions. It wasn't given to us to know.

We don't have their actual conversations between the translations and the written word. We need a video of what they said that wasn't written down.

So what I see in my 'revelation' is these discussions and their sincere efforts to put down the revelations as they came.

If you have ever had a revelation/message from the Lord on any extended basis you know how difficult it is to put these concepts into language. Adding into this the factors of translating figures into the meaning the Lord had for the brethren is a whole different and even more complexed experience.

Unless you have a revelation of a sort where you actually see what happened in that room... which is possible... My husband had such an experience at Navoo on June 27th (his birthday) when he was told by the spirit that if he went there at the time of JS murder that he would be given something special. He was... he was given a vision at the one little window when he looked out... he saw the mobs... he also saw that the jailer who was supposed have been out of town or not present was among the mob telling them how to get in and where to find the prophet. His face was painted black as he was indisguise so no one would recognize him except those in the mob he was helping. He had been paid well for this. No one knows that...

Before this time it was believed he was trying to help JS by having him in a different room.

So you see... I believe you are going about finding this particular piece of information about the BofA all from the wrong sources. Try getting a revelation which will reveal the 'whole' truth to you..

But I realize you want something you can present to 'the people'... you won't find it. It isn't what the Lord wants... for this particular thing...

[Paul Osborne]

Please,

Oh the mystery of it all!

There isn’t any doubt that Joseph got the translation through a direct revelation process. Warren Parrish later said, "I have sat by his side and penned down the translation of the Egyptian Hieroglyphics as he claimed to receive it by direct revelation", hence the prophet worked by revelation in front of his scribes. It’s also been said by others that he worked through the Urim & Thummim or a seer stone.

Now, I don’t have such a stone, so my experience and judgment is lacking in this regard. It’s difficult to imagine how something can be made to represent something else apart from the concept of pure symbolism. It is well for us to suppose that Facsimile No. 1 is a vignette at the beginning of the BofA roll, as this is the narration of Abraham; it’s also easy to suppose that Facsimile No. 3 is the end part of a funerary presentation. Of course, the text in between is funerary spells.

I’d like to know how Joseph Smith got the story from the text. Did he see it? Did he just think it? Did he hear it? Did he feel it? Did he imagine it? Warren Parrish doesn’t say if the prophet saw something or heard a voice. He simply says he got it by direct revelation. It seems reasonable to me that Warren Parrish and company thought the story was written on the roll by the hand of Abraham, but this to me is an idea rather than a reality.

I seek the truth, and the Savior said the truth makes one free. So far, I think Joseph was mistaken about what was truthfully on the papyrus but I’m convinced the revelation regarding the story itself is true. So, for me, learning truth is an ongoing process and I will never be satisfied until I know all of it. Therefore, I'm not really free, yet.

Paul O

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Sep 21 2005, 09:27 AM

Please,

Oh the mystery of it all!

There isn’t any doubt that Joseph got the translation through a direct revelation process. Warren Parrish later said, "I have sat by his side and penned down the translation of the Egyptian Hieroglyphics as he claimed to receive it by direct revelation", hence the prophet worked by revelation in front of his scribes. It’s also been said by others that he worked through the Urim & Thummim or a seer stone.

Now, I don’t have such a stone, so my experience and judgment is lacking in this regard. It’s difficult to imagine how something can be made to represent something else apart from the concept of pure symbolism. It is well for us to suppose that Facsimile No. 1 is a vignette at the beginning of the BofA roll, as this is the narration of Abraham; it’s also easy to suppose that Facsimile No. 3 is the end part of a funerary presentation. Of course, the text in between is funerary spells.

I’d like to know how Joseph Smith got the story from the text. Did he see it? Did he just think it? Did he hear it? Did he feel it? Did he imagine it? Warren Parrish doesn’t say if the prophet saw something or heard a voice. He simply says he got it by direct revelation. It seems reasonable to me that Warren Parrish and company thought the story was written on the roll by the hand of Abraham, but this to me is an idea rather than a reality.

I seek the truth, and the Savior said the truth makes one free. So far, I think Joseph was mistaken about what was truthfully on the papyrus but I’m convinced the revelation regarding the story itself is true.  So, for me, learning truth is an ongoing process and I will never be satisfied until I know all of it. Therefore, I'm not really free, yet.

Paul O

←

Symbolism is an interesting concept. For some a hot air balloon is just that... a hot air baloon. But I was given it as a symbol of faith... filling up and causing the holder/container of it to rise...

Now when I see a hot air balloon my heart flutters with the reminder of the power of faith..

I was given this symbol in connection with two other symbols easily recognized by everyone. The rainbow for our covenants and the heart for charity. These three... hot air balloon, heart, rainbow put all to gether create a fullness of the gospel in action.

But if I were to put these symbols out randomly... the gays have taken the rainbow for their own, the heart is valentines and used for lovers, the hot air balloon is recreation for the rich...

How would they all apppear to people down the line in the future if I wrote them only in symbolic form and didn't put my meaning to them?

[Paul Osborne]

How would they all apppear to people down the line in the future if I wrote them only in symbolic form and didn't put my meaning to them?

“Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.]” (Times & Seasons; November 1, 1843)

Do you think the typical ancient Egyptian would understand Joseph Smith or, is the prophet speaking in tongues? How does this compare to the text on the funerary roll in which Facsimile No. 1 & 3 were taken?

Paul O

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Sep 21 2005, 12:48 PM

How would they all apppear to people down the line in the future if I wrote them only in symbolic form and didn't put my meaning to them?

“Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.]” (Times & Seasons; November 1, 1843)

Do you think the typical ancient Egyptian would understand Joseph Smith or, is the prophet speaking in tongues? How does this compare to the text on the funerary roll in which Facsimile No. 1 & 3 were taken?

Paul O

←

NO I don't believe a TYPICAL Egyptian would understand Joseph Smith. Revelation is required to understand revelation and the typical Egyptian probably didn't have any revelation...

I would think that if Joseph Smith understood and spoke something of another tongue it would require the gift of interpretation to understand what he said...

How does it compare? It compares as apples and oranges. If it is not read and understood by the same means it was given.... it will not be understood correctly.

There is a lot of teachings warning us not to lean to our own understanding... for a good reason.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 21 2005, 01:19 PM

There is a lot of teachings warning us not to lean to our own understanding... for a good reason.

←

That wouldn't be because it will likely conflict with the "word of God"?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Sep 21 2005, 02:28 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 21 2005, 01:19 PM

There is a lot of teachings warning us not to lean to our own understanding... for a good reason.

←

That wouldn't be because it will likely conflict with the "word of God"?

←

Was that sarcasm???

[Traveler]

Many times I have speculated when I knew someone was being released or a ward or stake divided. It is fun to speculate with one exception. I have also been in situation during events that I knew what was happening. At that point speculation is not fun nor is having information others seem to desire.

I have learned that those that speculate seem to have the most to say. Those that know seldom let it known what they know. The P of GP (including the B of A) is not for everybody. Unlike the Book of Mormon that has a broad purpose, the P of GP has a narrow audience. Those that are touched by such writings begin to approach a understanding in spirit how such things came to be. Obtaining a Pearl of Great Price does not come easy.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Jason+Sep 21 2005, 01:28 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 21 2005, 01:19 PM

There is a lot of teachings warning us not to lean to our own understanding... for a good reason.

←

That wouldn't be because it will likely conflict with the "word of God"?

←

Sometimes I am dumb founded how right you are despite the fact you are clueless but even a broken clock is right twice every day.

The Traveler

[Paul Osborne]

Traveler,

I love the Pearl of Great Price. I don’t know what I’d do without it. The Book of Moses reveals some very significant things.

The BofA, as presently constituted offers some interesting insight into astronomy, but I think we would have a lot more had Joseph continued the translation as he promised. I think the Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar plays an important part of the Book of Abraham experience. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 are certainly related to the EA&G, as are other points that are less known to the average LDS student.

Jah-oh-eh

Flo-ees

Flosisis

Kliflosisis

VehKliflosisis

Kolob

Paul O

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Traveler@Sep 21 2005, 10:02 PM

Many times I have speculated when I knew someone was being released or a ward or stake divided.  It is fun to speculate with one exception.  I have also been in situation during events that I knew what was happening.  At that point speculation is not fun nor is having information others seem to desire.

I have learned that those that speculate seem to have the most to say.  Those that know seldom let it known what they know.  The P of GP (including the B of A) is not for everybody.  Unlike the Book of Mormon that has a broad purpose, the P of GP has a narrow audience.  Those that are touched by such writings begin to approach a understanding in spirit how such things came to be.  Obtaining a Pearl of Great Price does not come easy.

The Traveler

←

Amen.

[Paul Osborne]

Traveler,

When the sons of God shouted for joy at the creation of the earth you can imagine there was a lot of talk about this earth and its creation. The same applies today. These are the last days when knowledge is poured out on the face of the earth. Discussion generates further knowledge among the Father’s children.

Glad to get to know you.

Paul O