Waiting To Have Kids -- Bad Idea.

[Fiannan]

One gripe I have heard about the Church is that we encourage younger women to marry and start families -- while the norm for at least the opinion shapers of "modern" American/European society would have young women pattern their lives after the characters of "Sex and the City". However, biology cares nothing about such norms as evidenced below:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4112450.stm

Seems there are three factors making it difficult even for women WANTING babies in our increasingly selfish society:

1) Weight gain (every western country is getting fatter and fatter).

2) Waiting until you are too old to get pregnant. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4248244.stm

3) Sexually transmitted diseases -- only a few can kill you (AIDS and cervical cancer for examples) but others can scar a woman and sterilize her.

Seems "modern" society and biology just don't go hand in hand.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Sep 23 2005, 09:50 AM

One gripe I have heard about the Church is that we encourage younger women to marry and start families -- while the norm for at least the opinion shapers of "modern" American/European society would have young women pattern their lives after the characters of "Sex and the City".  However, biology cares nothing about such norms as evidenced below:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4112450.stm

Seems there are three factors making it difficult even for women WANTING babies in our increasingly selfish society:

1) Weight gain (every western country is getting fatter and fatter).

2) Waiting until you are too old to get pregnant. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4248244.stm

3) Sexually transmitted diseases -- only a few can kill you (AIDS and cervical cancer for examples) but others can scar a woman and sterilize her.

Seems "modern" society and biology just don't go hand in hand.

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Obviously, biology doesn't care about a lot of things....girls having babies just after hitting puberty and without marriage, for example.

But apparently, like SS said, you've not considered the Psychological aspect of this problem.

[Fiannan]

Oh yes, psychology -- and secular society is SO much more capable of dealing with depression. Maybe that's why Sweden, the least religious nation on earth, has an increasing problem with depression amongth the young (not to mention suicide). Wanna play psychology? Why not Dirkheim's observations years ago (and confirmed by studies today) that depression and suicide is lowest in (at that time) Jewish and Catholic populations -- due to a strong sense of community and laarge families.

Tell me, is the ideal presented in "Sex and the City" with all its decadence, materialism, etc. likely to create less depression than the ideals presented by traditional Mormon teachings?

Read up on Adlerian psychology to see how parental styles, pampering of children (an epidemic in our ever-increasing fat and spoiled children population), as well as not giving good guidance to children early on is a major problem in depression. ANd if you say that kids were raised with more responsibilities 100 years ago I think the answer is not to adopt the world's views but to instill responsibility and respect of sacrifice in our youth today.

An interesting piece of pop psychology that goes with this can be found if you google "Peter Pan Syndrome".

[Fiannan]

A source from an unlikely place:

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/379/16169_IVF.html

Brigham Young said something very similar to this:

"From the point of view of demography a woman decides to delay her motherhood and pay most of her attention to her career and financial well-being. Consequently, children born from such mothers take a worse position in the competition with children born from younger mothers in terms of health and genetic potential."

[Heather]

My husband had already graduated when we got married. He was able to get a really good job, and we were married for 5 years before we had a child. We would still like to have at least 4 children before I hit 35, and I don't think that will be a problem.

I am going to teach our children to follow our example. There is no rush in life. We never had to struggle with both of us being in school, paying rent, min. wage jobs, plus we got to spend 5 years together, just us. We went to South Africa and Europe and did a lot of things we would've never been able to do if we had a baby after 1 year of marriage. I believe it was a very important time in our relationship, where we could focus on each other, and really grow together as a couple. I would hope that every parent can have the kind of bond with their spouse before they even think of bringing another life into the mix.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 23 2005, 12:15 PM

My husband had already graduated when we got married.  He was able to get a really good job, and we were married for 5 years before we had a child.  We would still like to have at least 4 children before I hit 35, and I don't think that will be a problem. 

I am going to teach our children to follow our example.  There is no rush in life.  We never had to struggle with both of us being in school, paying rent, min. wage jobs, plus we got to spend 5 years together, just us.  We went to South Africa and Europe and did a lot of things we would've never been able to do if we had a baby after 1 year of marriage.  I believe it was a very important time in our relationship, where we could focus on each other, and really grow together as a couple.  I would hope that every parent can have the kind of bond with their spouse before they even think of bringing another life into the mix.

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How wonderfully wise you are!!! I am jealous! :)

[Fiannan]

Actually Heather you do not sound as if your style of family is worldly in the least -- how many people in today's post-Chrisitan society comment that they want at least 4 children before age 35? People in and out of the Church (Chrisitans who desire to live by the Bible) might learn a great deal from the following instructions. The Pope recently said Christians needed to start raising more kids and refrain from birth control and family limitation. Good idea.

"We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity. Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by."

(First Presidency {David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown, N. Eldon Tanner} Letter to presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and presidents of missions, 14 April 1969)

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"I have told many groups of young people that they should not postpone their marriage until they have acquired all of their education ambitions. I have told tens of thousands of young folks that when they marry they should not wait for children until they have finished their schooling and financial desires. Marriage is basically for the family, and there should be no long delay. They should live together normally and let the children come. . ."

(Spencer W. Kimball, "Marriage is Honorable," Speeches of the Year, 1973, p. 263)

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"The tendency for many of our girls and many of our married women to put off or to reduce their families is not pleasing to your Heavenly Father, for He said, 'multiply and replenish the earth,' and He knew what He was doing, and any of our personal opinions don't amount to much as compared to the wisdom of God. And he said as he concluded this great effort of creation, 'And I . . .saw everything that I had made, and behold, all things which I had made were very good . . .' He stood off and looked them over. He had made no errors; He had made no mistakes; He had created man and woman for a purpose. That purpose was not fun; that purpose basically was to live together in harmony and peace and to rear children in righteousness . . ."

(Spencer W. Kimball, Address to Special Interest Fireside in Tabernacle, 29 Dec. 1974, pp. 4-5)

http://www.lds-mormon.com/birth.shtml

[Fiannan]

Actually it is a myth that women lived some sort of Relief Society 1950s dream image in the 19th. Century. Women then worked in the fields, might have to shoot someone to protect her children while her husband was off hunting, trapping or off on a mission, women had to run the farm (physically as well as financially) when they were widowed or the husband was away. She might have 7 or 8 kids, have no modern conveniences, have to teach her children at home (everything) and still have to worry that game might be slight, crops might fail or some disease could hit and kill her, her husband or some of her kids.

If anytime was a time of uncertainty about life it was the era BEFORE the early to mid 20th. Century. If there were any era that might have warrented curtailing your number of kids it was before our recent times.

Using reasoning abilities theis would be the best of times to raise a large family, not the worse. If Brigham Young or Joseph Smith could cross over to our dimension and hear people in the Church today complain of how hard it is to raise kids I think they would just shake their heads in disbelief.

[Fiannan]

I sympathize with the views expressed but believe that modern society is a dangerous thing to borrow values from.

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, Pg. 120-21 -- Brigham Young

To check the increase of our race has its advocates among the influential and powerful circles of society in our nation and in other nations. The same practice existed forty-five years ago, and various devices were used by married persons to prevent the expenses and responsibilities of a family of children, which they must have incurred had they suffered nature's laws to rule preeminent. That which was practiced then in fear and against reproving conscience, is now boldly trumpeted abroad as one of the best means of ameliorating the miseries and sorrows of humanity. Infanticide is very prevalent in our nation. It is a crime that comes within the purview of the law, and is therefore not so boldly practiced as is the other equally great crime, which, no doubt, to a great extent, prevents the necessity of infanticide. The unnatural style of living, the extensive use of narcotics, the attempts to destroy and dry up the fountains of life, are fast destroying the American element of the nation; it is passing away before the increase of the more healthy, robust, honest, and less sinful class of the people which are pouring into the country daily from the Old World. The wife of the servant man is the mother of eight or ten healthy children, while the wife of his master is the mother of one or two poor, sickly children, devoid of vitality and constitution, and, if daughters, unfit, in their turn, to be mothers, and the health and vitality which nature has denied them through the irregularities of their parents are not repaired in the least by their education.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/s..._Control.htm#by

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8534

[Fiannan]

fertility science is allowing any women who might not have been able to have families now feel that joy. Also life expectancy of women and death rate during birth have changed, as have child bearing years.

No, that is the point the doctors featured in the articles I quoted originally are trying to get across. Female fertility is still locked the same way it has been for thousands of years. If Mary gave birth to Jesus at age 14 then puberty must have occured in young teens who had good nourishment in those days. The point is, child bearing years are the same now as they always have been for women -- the natural limit is late 30s and some, very feew, mid 40s).

Breast cancer rates have gone up due to low birthrates, but that is all.

Fertility treatments are expensive and generally don't work. They do offer hope, but the younger a woman tries to get aid the better chance she has of having some success. Also, I knew a wonderful (and beautiful) LDS gal who was about 23 and unmarried who had developed a bad case of endometriosis. She shared with me that her doctor had said that her best hope to cure this (and avoid irreversible reproductive damage) would be to get pregnant soon (endometriosis is very rare in societies that women start having children very young). I do remember joking about a cure and she was kinda open to the idea but I am glad I resisted that particular moment of temptation.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Sep 23 2005, 01:50 PM

Fertility treatments are expensive and generally don't work....

I'd be interested in any information that would back up your statement Fiannan. For me personally, my infertility treatments were not expensive. With my first attempt to get pregnant they were paid for by Alberta Health Care (1988) and with my second pregnancy attempt (1990/91) they eventually added up to less than $400.00.

I was successful both times - I have a daughter and a son. I'm absolutely sure there are people who do not have success conceiving with help but there are many who are successful.

By the way Fiannan, are you male or female and do you have children?

M.

[Fiannan]

And if you didn't have insurance the costs of fertility treatment would be...?

Check out this site:

http://www.fertilitext.org/p7_investment/

Fertility treatments vary according to what the problem is. Some problems are easier to treat than others but if you add a factor like being 36, rather than 26 to any existing condition (especially if it is one that gets worse with age -- i.e. endometriosis) then the average figure of 50% of patients eventually having a baby goes lower for you.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Fiannan+Sep 24 2005, 09:41 AM-->

And if you didn't have insurance the costs of fertility treatment would be...?

Check out this site:

http://www.fertilitext.org/p7_investment/

Fertility treatments vary according to what the problem is.  Some problems are easier to treat than others but if you add a factor like being 36, rather than 26 to any existing condition (especially if it is one that gets worse with age -- i.e. endometriosis) then the average figure of 50% of patients eventually having a baby goes lower for you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan @ Sep 23 2005

@ 01:50 PM

Fertility treatments are expensive and generally don't work....

I agree that fertility treatments do vary according to the problem. But your first statement was extremely general and made it sound like all fertility treatments were expensive and seldom work. What first hand experience do you have to back up your general statement?

And you didn't mention whether you were male or female and if you have children.

M.

[Fiannan]

And you didn't mention whether you were male or female and if you have children.

Yes on both counts. I am either male or female and yes I do have children.

[Faerie]

hmmmm....as someone like maureen who has gone through IF and treatment, i don't know what to say about this thread lol

just know that a good portion of women who are undergoing IVF in their later years are not doing it out of choice...

i have quite a few friends who have been trying to get pregnant the good ole' fashioned way for years upon years and finally resort to IVF in their later years...it's not something they jump up and down and get excited over...

[gwell]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 23 2005, 12:15 PM

My husband had already graduated when we got married.  He was able to get a really good job, and we were married for 5 years before we had a child.  We would still like to have at least 4 children before I hit 35, and I don't think that will be a problem. 

I am going to teach our children to follow our example.  There is no rush in life.  We never had to struggle with both of us being in school, paying rent, min. wage jobs, plus we got to spend 5 years together, just us.  We went to South Africa and Europe and did a lot of things we would've never been able to do if we had a baby after 1 year of marriage.  I believe it was a very important time in our relationship, where we could focus on each other, and really grow together as a couple.  I would hope that every parent can have the kind of bond with their spouse before they even think of bringing another life into the mix.

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Sounds like my wife and I. We waited just under 5 years and were both done or schooling and paid off our student loans...I am glad that we waited as we had a chance to for a strong relationship. (Not that others who have children sooner don't) We felt as though it was important to us to do this and it has been a strength for us in our marriage.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by gwell+Sep 28 2005, 12:20 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Heather@Sep 23 2005, 12:15 PM

My husband had already graduated when we got married.  He was able to get a really good job, and we were married for 5 years before we had a child.  We would still like to have at least 4 children before I hit 35, and I don't think that will be a problem.  

I am going to teach our children to follow our example.  There is no rush in life.  We never had to struggle with both of us being in school, paying rent, min. wage jobs, plus we got to spend 5 years together, just us.  We went to South Africa and Europe and did a lot of things we would've never been able to do if we had a baby after 1 year of marriage.  I believe it was a very important time in our relationship, where we could focus on each other, and really grow together as a couple.  I would hope that every parent can have the kind of bond with their spouse before they even think of bringing another life into the mix.

←

Sounds like my wife and I. We waited just under 5 years and were both done or schooling and paid off our student loans...I am glad that we waited as we had a chance to for a strong relationship. (Not that others who have children sooner don't) We felt as though it was important to us to do this and it has been a strength for us in our marriage.

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I think you were very wise... this is what I have told my kids to do.... and having grown up in a very poor family who had to stress over bills and no food.... they are more than willing to wait and build the nest before bringing children into it...

[gwell]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 28 2005, 02:17 PM

I think you were very wise... this is what I have told my kids to do.... and having grown up in a very poor family who had to stress over bills and no food.... they are more than willing to wait and build the nest before bringing children into it...

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It is a fine line......

When do you draw the line between preparing and worldliness......I would guess noone really knows...it is all a matter of opinion....

For the record I will be teaching my daughter not to rush things....

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by gwell+Sep 28 2005, 03:20 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 28 2005, 02:17 PM

I think you were very wise... this is what I have told my kids to do.... and having grown up in a very poor family who had to stress over bills and no food.... they are more than willing to wait and build the nest before bringing children into it...

←

It is a fine line......

When do you draw the line between preparing and worldliness......I would guess noone really knows...it is all a matter of opinion....

For the record I will be teaching my daughter not to rush things....

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The fine line is drawn when following the scriptures.... and wisdom. We are taught:

D&C 88: 119

119 aOrganize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a bhouse•, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

and then we have the example of God Himself.... where he created this world and prepared everything.... trees, animals... etc.... before man was placed upon it...

think about it... it isn't worldly... it is spiritual....

[Fiannan]

Please, don't you think that D & C 88 is talking about church building and temples? I have heard many misinterpret this thing about "order" and become fanatics about housecleaning and organization (sorry, I am not anal retentive so my vision of order is different than some).

And your interpretation of Genesis is a bit esoteric. I believe the counsel from Presidents Kimball and Benson is totally specific and not hard to understand.

Biology designed women to be at their reproductive best between their late teens and 35. Having babies is easier, there are fewer complications and less cases of genetic disorders. Modern feminism and materialism may pull at us and tempt us, but our bodies are still the same as they have always been.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 1 2005, 03:03 PM

Please, don't you think that D & C 88 is talking about church building and temples? I have heard many misinterpret this thing about "order" and become fanatics about housecleaning and organization (sorry, I am not anal retentive so my vision of order is different than some).

And your interpretation of Genesis is a bit esoteric.  I believe the counsel from Presidents Kimball and Benson is totally specific and not hard to understand.  

Biology designed women to be at their reproductive best between their late teens and 35.  Having babies is easier, there are fewer complications and less cases of genetic disorders.  Modern feminism and materialism may pull at us and tempt us, but our bodies are still the same as they have always been.

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Well if it takes you that long to establish your nest... then what can I say... really most I know have their children around 28- and still have time to have 2 0r 3 children.. and in these days that is a big family and lots of responsibility... considering the way the educational system has failed the families and children alike... and the social demands upon families to provide everything for their children...

[Heather]

I think DC 88 can also apply to us and our homes. I think it's very important that we have a house of order and a house that is clean. I know I had friends in HS who would never have us over to their homes, because they were embarassed about how unclean it was. Sure everything in life can be taken to the extreme. I don't see the Church hiring cleaning crews to scrub down the walls/floors/ceilings of our buildings every night, and I don't think we need to be fanatics about our homes either. I just know that when I'm living in a house that is not in order, I can't get anything else done, because I am thinking there are nasty dishes in the sink and cheerios on the floor and I don't want to live in that.

[Fiannan]

Please, again, you have to weigh maternalism and materialism to examine and set your priorities. Also, the educational system is as good (or bad) as parents make it for the most part. The main variables that have been discovered that determine how well students will do in school are the number of books in the home, attitude/involvement of the parents in the educational process and the level of education the father attained.

Heather, where was that part of the New Testament where Jesus praised one woman for sitting by Him during his visit and chastized the other for trying to organize the house?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 2 2005, 12:46 AM

Please, again, you have to weigh maternalism and materialism to examine and set your priorities. Also, the educational system is as good (or bad) as parents make it for the most part.  The main variables that have been discovered that determine how well students will do in school are the number of books in the home, attitude/involvement of the parents in the educational process and the level of education the father attained.

Heather, where was that part of the New Testament where Jesus praised one woman for sitting by Him during his visit and chastized the other for trying to organize the house?

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Your scripture is about Mary and Margaret...

Luke 10: 38-42

38 ¶ Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named aMartha• received him into her house.

39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word.

40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art acareful• and troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath achosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Now as to the education system... it isn't as good as the parents make it... there are definite failures... I know many many people who went the extra mile for the schools and still their children were neglected and the teachers pushed all the responsibility onto the parents...

I will give you just one example... waiting on chairs just across from a row of teacher behind tables... parents were able to hear the teacher tell each and every parent the exact same thing... "Your child is the only one not keeping up with the class. You must work at night with him/her until they catch up with the class..."

This teacher was expecting the parents to teach their own child... while the teacher did nothing....

I experience hundreds of these accounts and a multitude of my own...

Now considering the fact that I received a great education without my mother's or father help in any way.... I find it horrific that parents... most of them both working jobs and extra jobs to meet the bills.... and then trying to keep their children actively engaged in extra stuff like music lessons and some sport.... have to still do the job of an over paid teacher sitting on her arse....

[Heather]

They should've been prepared and had the house in order before he got there :) I'm not talking about being a fanatic when it comes to cleanliness, but I don't feel the spirit in my home when it's a disaster. I love being in a clean home. We've all been in unclean environments, be it a store, a resteraunt, etc. Would you really want to eat anything there? Would you want to read your scriptures there? How about invite your inlaws? I honestly don't see how having an unclean house can be a good thing. I feel I get so much more done if everything has a place and everything is in it's place. To me it shows that I respect myself, I respect those who come into my home, and I respect the items that I own by taking care of them.