Joseph Smith

[Snow]

I've been waiting three years for this:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,615154339,00.html

Richard Bushman, one of America's best historians has finished his major biography on Joseph Smith:

Like any historian worth his salt, Richard Bushman was determined early on to write about Joseph Smith's life "warts and all."

"I didn't want to cover up anything," he said by phone from his New York apartment. "I purposely sought to deal with all the problems, trying always to see things as Joseph saw them. I wanted to be empathetic, because that's what readers want."

Bushman's historical philosophy was strictly applied to "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling" (Knopf, 730 pages, $35), his work on the Mormon prophet. "I wanted to write a book in which Joseph could recognize himself.

"I once told a graduate student that I do it this way because I might meet this person in the afterlife. You have to write the book thinking the subject is in the room."

In fact, Bushman has written what is likely to be considered the definitive biography of Joseph Smith for many years to come.

"I liked the rolling part — a man in motion," Bushman said. "I also liked the rough stone. He knew he was rough and didn't pretend otherwise. I once wrote a book on gentility ('The Refinement of America'), and Joseph saw the artificiality of gentility. He didn't like Martin Van Buren (the U.S. president in the 1830s) because he was prissy and Joseph was rugged, and he felt more authentic."

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 1 2005, 06:51 PM

I've been waiting three years for this:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,615154339,00.html

Richard Bushman, one of America's best historians has finished his major biography on Joseph Smith:

Like any historian worth his salt, Richard Bushman was determined early on to write about Joseph Smith's life "warts and all."

      "I didn't want to cover up anything," he said by phone from his New York apartment. "I purposely sought to deal with all the problems, trying always to see things as Joseph saw them. I wanted to be empathetic, because that's what readers want."

      Bushman's historical philosophy was strictly applied to "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling" (Knopf, 730 pages, $35), his work on the Mormon prophet. "I wanted to write a book in which Joseph could recognize himself.

      "I once told a graduate student that I do it this way because I might meet this person in the afterlife. You have to write the book thinking the subject is in the room."

      In fact, Bushman has written what is likely to be considered the definitive biography of Joseph Smith for many years to come.

      "I liked the rolling part — a man in motion," Bushman said. "I also liked the rough stone. He knew he was rough and didn't pretend otherwise. I once wrote a book on gentility ('The Refinement of America'), and Joseph saw the artificiality of gentility. He didn't like Martin Van Buren (the U.S. president in the 1830s) because he was prissy and Joseph was rugged, and he felt more authentic."

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I hear it is a book of controversy..

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 2 2005, 05:07 PM

I hear it is a book of controversy..

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Not because of the author. Bushman is a scholar and historian of the highest order. He has written a number of books on LDS subjects. His book Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism shed some important and relevant light on JS and the beginings of the restoration. This new book will be a full treatment of Joseph Smith's life - probably, or most certainly, the most significant and important work on Smith to date.

If the book is controversial, that is because Joseph Smith was controversial. Any honest and controversial work about Smith will cover all the dicey stuff - like Bushman says... warts and all.

[Snow]

I'm going to a symposium on Joseph Smith this week and Bushman is one of the speakers so I started reading the book. I am more than a little excited by what's ahead. Have you ever wished for a book about Joseph Smith that gave you the straight dope - what really happened, a book that avoids the misinterpretation and dishonesty of the anti-mormons yet one that isn't whitewashed by the Mormon orthodoxy?

I think this is that book - by a widely respected and ethical historian, who has done all the research, had access to all the documents and Church archives and who writes with compelling prose.

In the prologue Bushman tells on Josiah Quincy's (prominent politician, writer and national commentator) one day encounter with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo (May 1844). Quincy says that they came to a two-story frame house with a white picket fence and found a group of "rough-looking Mormons" awaiting them...

"Pre-eminent among the stragglers by the door stood a man of commanding appearance, clad in the costume of a journeyman carpenter when about his work. He as hearty, athletic fellow with blue eyes standing prominently out upon his light complexion, a long now and a retreating forehead, He wore striped pantaloons, a linen jacket, which had not lately seen the washtub and a beard of some three day's growth."

Not thrown off by the rough clothes, Quincy remarked that "a fine-looking gentleman is what the passer-by would instinctively have murmured.

Only having met Joseph Smith that one time, Quincy later would write:

"It is by no means improbable that some future text-book, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful influence upon the destinies of his countrymen? And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet."

The prospect appalled Quincy, but the success of Joseph Smith's Mormonism was not to be denied...

Of the encounter that made such an impression on Quincy, Smith's diary simply says of May 15, 1844, "a son of John Quincy Adams, Mr. Quincy and Dr. Goforth visited the Mansion." Much rain this A.M."

...more later.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 16 2005, 08:31 PM

I'm going to a symposium on Joseph Smith this week and Bushman is one of the speakers so I started reading the book. I am more than a little excited by what's ahead. Have you ever wished for a book about Joseph Smith that gave you the straight dope - what really happened, a book that avoids the misinterpretation and dishonesty of the anti-mormons yet one that isn't whitewashed by the Mormon orthodoxy?

I think this is that book - by a widely respected and ethical historian, who has done all the research, had access to all the documents and Church archives and who writes with compelling prose.

In the prologue Bushman tells on Josiah Quincy's (prominent politician, writer and national commentator) one day encounter with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo (May 1844).  Quincy says that they came to a two-story frame house with a white picket fence and found a group of "rough-looking Mormons" awaiting them...

"Pre-eminent among the stragglers by the door stood a man of commanding appearance, clad in the costume of a journeyman carpenter when about his work. He as hearty, athletic fellow with blue eyes standing prominently out upon his light complexion, a long now and a retreating forehead, He wore striped pantaloons, a linen jacket, which had not lately seen the washtub and a beard of some three day's growth."

Not thrown off by the rough clothes, Quincy remarked that "a fine-looking gentleman is what the passer-by would instinctively have murmured.

Only having met Joseph Smith that one time, Quincy later would write:

"It is by no means improbable that some future text-book, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful  influence upon the destinies of his countrymen? And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet."

The prospect appalled Quincy, but the success of Joseph Smith's Mormonism was not to be denied...

Of the encounter that made such an impression on Quincy, Smith's diary simply says of May 15, 1844, "a son of John Quincy Adams, Mr. Quincy and Dr. Goforth visited the Mansion." Much rain this A.M."

...more later.

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So how did you find the symposium?

[john doe]

So how did you find the symposium?

I'm guessing he followed the directions given or knows the area well enough to know where to go.

Sorry, I couldn't resist the obvious opening.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by john doe@Oct 24 2005, 08:51 AM

So how did you find the symposium?

I'm guessing he followed the directions given or knows the area well enough to know where to go.

Sorry, I couldn't resist the obvious opening.

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LOL... I'll have to be more careful in the future...

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 24 2005, 06:43 AM

So how did you find the symposium?

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I went to two symposiums. An academic one at Claremont College and one at a Stake Center.

I knew about the one at Claremont because the Dean of the School of Religion spoke to our study group and I knew about the other one because it was in the Ward Sac Mtg program.

The Church is putting these things on all year - starting with the one in Washington DC which is available in audio and video online at:

http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,510-1-3067-1,00.html

I can't recall where the next symposium is except I know one is in Seoul, South Korea

[Snow]

Here's something I find very interesting. Joseph' followerers reacted differently to Joseph the man than they did Joseph the seer.

As an example, when JS asked John Whitmer to the Church Historian, Whitmer agreed, but only if the Lord would manifest it through Joseph the Seer. Joseph received a revelation and Whitmer complied.

[Snow]

Here's something interesting (pp 150-1)

Many were attracted to the very early restored Church because of the manifestations of spiritual gifts - healing, speaking in tongues. etc.

Remember how I used to tease Trident because he attended the Toronto Blessing where they were known for all sorts of pentecostal type behavior... trances, falling down, hopping around like animals and making all sorts of animal noises?

Apparently the same sort of thing was going on in the early church were converts who came from that sort of background. Many thought it got out of hand... fits of "the most wild, frantic, and horrible fanaticism," "the most ridiculous grimaces, creeping upon their hands and feet, rolling upon the frozen ground " aping "all the Indian modes of warfare such as knocking down, scalping, ripping open and tearing out the bowels."

You just don't get that in Sacrament Meeting any more... though I have seen a few odd things in Fast and Testimony Meeting from recent converts on my mission.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 26 2005, 10:44 PM

Here's something interesting (pp 150-1)

Many were attracted to the very early restored Church because of the manifestations of spiritual gifts - healing, speaking in tongues. etc....

I first came upon this style of worship for 19th century Mormons when reading Zina Huntington Jacob's diary on-line. I thought it was quite interesting, here's an excerpt:

March …1845…

…31. Quite cool. Amacy Limon and wife returned from Laharp.40 He is not very well. Apr. the 1st, 1845. Went to Br Brewers to see Mother Brewer, the first time I have ben there. Father Huntington came in in the evening. He spake in tong[ue]s. Henry also Sung in tungs. It was very good. I interpreted the talk by the help of the speret of God. Had an agreeable viset.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/zina1.shtml

M.

[Snow]

It was kind of a two edged thing for Joseph.

He couldn't very well condemn all the spiritual manifestations because it was the lure of the Spirit that brought in so many converts but on the other hand, too much hopping about and tongues, etc was offputting to more conversative folk and then members started getting their own revelations about how things ought to be and then others started believing the revelations of others and then Joseph's control was threatened so he had to elimate the threat of other revelation that might undercut him and yet not discourage well-intentioned spiritual manifestations.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 27 2005, 08:59 PM

It was kind of a two edged thing for Joseph.

He couldn't very well condemn all the spiritual manifestations because it was the lure of the Spirit that brought in so many converts but on the other hand, too much hopping about and tongues, etc was offputting to more conversative folk and then members started getting their own revelations about how things ought to be and then others started believing the revelations of others and then Joseph's control was threatened so he had to elimate the threat of other revelation that might undercut him and yet not discourage well-intentioned spiritual manifestations.

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Did he really have to worry? Or did he just have to do what he had to do and leave the rest to the Lord to sort through the rubble?